Which Edition? Trying to not confuse Traveller5 with Traveller 5E
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
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Coincidentally, the Kickstarter for the new Tunnels & Trolls (T&T) is also launching on 17th March!
I hope that have a green webpage being launched on St. Patrick's Day.Coincidentally, the Kickstarter for the new Tunnels & Trolls (T&T) is also launching on 17th March!
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I had cut my teeth on DnD 1e. Enjoyed 2e, briefly touched 3/3.5, did 4e for a while it lasted. Very video gamey. Tried 5e and hated it with a passion. It felt lost to me, all the powers felt the same, just renamed and available at different times for different classes. Boring...
5e Traveller is a hard no for me. The mechanics just come off as what you feed shock therapy patients. Gruel vs a nice juicy steak of 2d6 Taveller.
5e Traveller is a hard no for me. The mechanics just come off as what you feed shock therapy patients. Gruel vs a nice juicy steak of 2d6 Taveller.
In T20, you Could start play with a level 1 Character, but normally, you get x amount of experience every Term, with bonus experience from certain events (injury or ranking up in a service for example), so 2 to 4 Terms lets you start with a level 3 to 7ish Character.
Experience is time & event/adventure based with multipliers for recovering from an injury to 'OMG, what's happening?". Even a little bonus experience for great roleplaying is possible.
The way experience scales per level, it could take many game years to reach level 12ish, and lot's of adventuring for experience to get higher. (I did the math one time, and unless you are a long lived race or using anagathics or adventuring like crazy, level 20 isn't that easy to reach.)
Well, I guess I don't quite get it then.
If you can "roll up" a L5 character, which as I recall from D&D is "OK" powerful, I mean, what's the game then?
The dark truth is that while character have skills in Traveller, they don't really have "power". They have gear (more powerful guns, better armor, a starship in their pocket), but a Gun Combat - 1 player vs a Gun Combat -3 player, there's a difference, but not a great difference. And with the lethality of the environment, not necessarily an impactful difference.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all comes out.
If you can "roll up" a L5 character, which as I recall from D&D is "OK" powerful, I mean, what's the game then?
The dark truth is that while character have skills in Traveller, they don't really have "power". They have gear (more powerful guns, better armor, a starship in their pocket), but a Gun Combat - 1 player vs a Gun Combat -3 player, there's a difference, but not a great difference. And with the lethality of the environment, not necessarily an impactful difference.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all comes out.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I would contest that +1 skill vs +3 skill is not great difference.
Traveller is a 2d6 system with a standard target number of 8+ for combat.
The probability of achieving 8 or more on 2d6 is 42%
a +1DM increases your chance to 58%, that is a difference of 16%, a 15% bonus on D&D requires +3
a +3DM increases your chance to 83%, that is a difference of 39%, a 40% bonus on D&D requires +8
So anyone with a skill of 1 can be considered 3rd level, anyone with a skill of 3 can be considered 8th level.
Traveller is a 2d6 system with a standard target number of 8+ for combat.
The probability of achieving 8 or more on 2d6 is 42%
a +1DM increases your chance to 58%, that is a difference of 16%, a 15% bonus on D&D requires +3
a +3DM increases your chance to 83%, that is a difference of 39%, a 40% bonus on D&D requires +8
So anyone with a skill of 1 can be considered 3rd level, anyone with a skill of 3 can be considered 8th level.
Sure, completely valid.
But for the environment that they are in, not so sure it matters.
Consider that while a Shootist with +3 may well get more hits than someone with +1, its likely not that impactful on their overall survival in the long term.
The +1 fellow has the same armor as the +3 fellow. They run out of ammunition just as fast at the +1 fellow does. One lucky hit, and they're out of action.
Take a Level 8 Fighter against a dozen of Level 1 Orcs, and you get a, perhaps, banged up fighter and a bunch of dead Orcs.
Take a +3 Shootist against a dozen gunmen, you likely end up with a dead Shootist.
Mind, I have not played D&D since AD&D, so perhaps it's not as heroic and cinematic as it was. But that seen at Helms Deep with Aragorn and Gimli taking on the ravaging horde on the bridge, that's what D&D is all about. Traveller, not so much.
In D&D Magic is power, in Traveller, Money is power to hire thugs and lawyers.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You are comparing apples with oranges with those analogies
A Traveller character with +1 is the equivalent of a 3rd level fighter
A Traveller character with a +3 is an 8th level fighter.
Put them in identical armour and give them identical weapons, the 8th level fighter is going to win the day. This is true in Traveller and D&D. A lot of people don't follow the statistics of DM bonuses to a 2d6 probability range. It should really be printed on every referee screen and character sheet
From LBB:0
To get it into similar territory make the standard target number a 13 on a d20, The 3rd level fighter (Traveller skill level 1) gets a +3, the 8th level fighter (Traveller skill level 3) gets a +8.
Give them both standard armour but with damage reduction (there is a D&D variant for this) and give them both the same weapon.
the +3 skill/8th level fighter has a considerable advantage in both systems. Yes the +1skill/3rd level fighter can get lucky, but the probability favours the higher skill (higher level) fighter.
Try it out.
777777 combat skill 1 vs 777777 combat skill level 3
Run 1,000 combats, Which character wins most often by a considerable margin - all down to +3 having a massive affect on a 2d6 spread with a target of 8+. It gets worse at +4 and +5... the 2d6 system really can't cope with much more than a capped +3 bonus, you have to resort to raising target numbers until you go beyond the maximum possible on 2d.
Much as I love CT, 2d6 and all the rest of its idiosyncrasies I am aware of its limitations. Increasing the dice to d8s, d10s or d12 have interesting effects on the game resolution. Similarly increasing the die type as a bonus damage system is something that can be explored - but that way lies heresy
A Traveller character with +1 is the equivalent of a 3rd level fighter
A Traveller character with a +3 is an 8th level fighter.
Put them in identical armour and give them identical weapons, the 8th level fighter is going to win the day. This is true in Traveller and D&D. A lot of people don't follow the statistics of DM bonuses to a 2d6 probability range. It should really be printed on every referee screen and character sheet
From LBB:0
| Target no. | 2+ | 3+ | 4+ | 5+ | 6+ | 7+ | 8+ | 9+ | 10+ | 11+ | 12 |
| probability/% | 100 | 97 | 92 | 83 | 72 | 58 | 42 | 28 | 17 | 8 | 3 |
To get it into similar territory make the standard target number a 13 on a d20, The 3rd level fighter (Traveller skill level 1) gets a +3, the 8th level fighter (Traveller skill level 3) gets a +8.
Give them both standard armour but with damage reduction (there is a D&D variant for this) and give them both the same weapon.
the +3 skill/8th level fighter has a considerable advantage in both systems. Yes the +1skill/3rd level fighter can get lucky, but the probability favours the higher skill (higher level) fighter.
Try it out.
777777 combat skill 1 vs 777777 combat skill level 3
Run 1,000 combats, Which character wins most often by a considerable margin - all down to +3 having a massive affect on a 2d6 spread with a target of 8+. It gets worse at +4 and +5... the 2d6 system really can't cope with much more than a capped +3 bonus, you have to resort to raising target numbers until you go beyond the maximum possible on 2d.
Much as I love CT, 2d6 and all the rest of its idiosyncrasies I am aware of its limitations. Increasing the dice to d8s, d10s or d12 have interesting effects on the game resolution. Similarly increasing the die type as a bonus damage system is something that can be explored - but that way lies heresy
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Again, not knowing the mechanics to any detail.
All told, 1 on 1, all things being equal, an 8th Level Fighter will best a 3rd Level fighter simply by outlasting them via HP.
But things are not equal. A 3rd Level Fighter will have difficulty simply hitting an 8th Level Fighter, much less actually damaging them. Due to the 8th Level fighters higher skills, better armor, magic enhancements, etc. This "invulnerability" is what gives the higher level characters their power. The L8 fighter also likely hits harder than an L3 fighter.
A +1 Traveller will only have issues hitting the +3 character because of their own lack of skill, not because the +3 character is any better at not being hit. And the +1 Traveller can do just as much damage as the +3 character can. If the +1 character DOES hit, the +3 character is in trouble.
I bet (and I don't know) that if you put a L8 Fighter against 10 L3 Fighters, 1 on 1, right after each other, the L8 has great chance of prevailing. Do that with a +3 vs a string of +1, and not so much.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The target number to hit is 13 on a d20
The 3rd level fighter gets +3
The 8th level fighter gets +8
This is the same as a target number of 8 on 2d6
The +1 skill traveller has a +1 so hits on a 7+, an increase of 16%
The +3 skill traveller has a +3 to hits on a 5, an increase of 41%
That is the considerable difference I can see in the 2d6 resolution system. A level 2 in a skill is a sizable increase in chance for success, being a 30% bonus vs a skill 0, 14% greater than a skill 1.
A skill 4 character is going to succeed 92% of the time on an 8+, I wonder how many referees know these percentages off by heart or do they just go with what "feels" right?
Instead of thinking about a character with skill levels consider expressing them in BRP terms
guns 42%, with dex bonus 58%
brawling 58%, with str bonus 72%
vehicle 72%
The 3rd level fighter gets +3
The 8th level fighter gets +8
This is the same as a target number of 8 on 2d6
The +1 skill traveller has a +1 so hits on a 7+, an increase of 16%
The +3 skill traveller has a +3 to hits on a 5, an increase of 41%
That is the considerable difference I can see in the 2d6 resolution system. A level 2 in a skill is a sizable increase in chance for success, being a 30% bonus vs a skill 0, 14% greater than a skill 1.
A skill 4 character is going to succeed 92% of the time on an 8+, I wonder how many referees know these percentages off by heart or do they just go with what "feels" right?
Instead of thinking about a character with skill levels consider expressing them in BRP terms
guns 42%, with dex bonus 58%
brawling 58%, with str bonus 72%
vehicle 72%
Bookwyrm (in a sobbing, choking kind of voice): D20! I thought you were a hunk! But now I find out your DC's are just as average as 2d6!
D20: Wait! What? How did you find out?
2d6: Bwahahahaha!
@mike wightman Thanks for all the comparisons. Really puts rolling checks in perspective between the two systems.
@whartung In both systems, the lower level/skilled character is at a disadvantage. The better choices are to surrender or retreat, otherwise they'd probably end up dead. But there is always(?) a chance for a lucky shot that wins the day.
The higher level/skilled character has more training and maybe real life experience, a better weapon and probably some ballistic armor if expecting trouble, and might know how to make better use of the terrain. Fighting it out or retreating to return later when the odds are better are viable choices unless they under/over estimated their opponent.
D20: Wait! What? How did you find out?
2d6: Bwahahahaha!
@mike wightman Thanks for all the comparisons. Really puts rolling checks in perspective between the two systems.
@whartung In both systems, the lower level/skilled character is at a disadvantage. The better choices are to surrender or retreat, otherwise they'd probably end up dead. But there is always(?) a chance for a lucky shot that wins the day.
The higher level/skilled character has more training and maybe real life experience, a better weapon and probably some ballistic armor if expecting trouble, and might know how to make better use of the terrain. Fighting it out or retreating to return later when the odds are better are viable choices unless they under/over estimated their opponent.
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