TRAVELLER 5 - My Thoughts And Comments REDUX

[Supplement Four]

It was a long day at work, then I had an appointment after work...and then, I had dinner with a friend.

As I dragged myself up to the front door just a few minutes ago, I spotted the box. I knew what was in it, and I smiled to myself.

I haven't had time to evaluate any of the material. I'll write my thoughts later in this thread. But, my very first impression of Traveller 5, as I cut open the tape before folding back the box lid, was akin to that feeling I had, years and years ago, when I first spied the Little Black Box with the Beowulf on the cover, lying alone on the shelf, over 30 years ago.

When I saw it--that shining black cover, red line, and all--no lie, I got goose bumps.

Then, I pulled it out of the box--the MASSIVE tome of a role-playing game. And, I smiled so much that my teeth dried.

I flipped through, scanning the pages, looking here and there: I LOVE the look of the book! The illos. The typeface. EVERYTHING about the look of the book SCREAMS Traveller to me!

The actual look of the book could not have looked better, imo.

And, flipping through the pages, it truly reminds me of an old school RPG. I'm talking really old school--lots of detail and war game influence. Tons of text.

I'll dig into this slowly. There's no way I could (or, I think, anyone could) read this thing quickly then start playing ASAP. No, this book is going to take time--patience.

As I go through it, I'll post more thoughts.

But...just from the look of it (and the fact that MWM signed it guarrantees that I will not sell it), I'm extremely happy so far.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well....it looks like my original thread got locked. I only had one post in that thread--the OP. I understand the original thread may be re-opened at some point, and if it is, I'll ask to have this thread combined with that one.

My original OP basically stated that I loved the look of the BBB (Big Black Book). And, I do. I love the paper. I love the cover. I love the art. I love the typeface.

To me, the BBB is truly how a Traveller book should look. It's like the book is imbued with "Traveller-ness".

I love it, love it, love it.

But today, I've started to dig into the content of the book.

Next up: I begin my thoughts on the combat system.

 

[Muad'dib Pendragon]

Looking forward to it.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm going to make comments as I read the rules. Note that my opinion may change after I end up grasping an entire concept.

Verbose: My first thought as I started reading--and this is an extremely minor nit-pick--is that Marc is a bit wordy, almost academic, with the text. He writes in a style that requires careful reading and re-reading. Some people (I've read in reviews) are having trouble with the rules, wanting examples. I wonder if Marc's writing style has something to do with this. And, maybe the page count could have been cut down a bit, too.

But, like I said, this is an itty-bitty thing, hardly worth mentioning.



Range Bands: I first spied Range Bands in Starter Traveller (which was also my introduction to Traveller). They're back in T5. And, this time, the rules show how the Range bands can be set to different scales. That's a plus, in my book. Same concept used at different unit measures.



Combat Round: From what I've read so far, it seems that T5 is going way old school, back to a one minute combat round a'la AD&D. The combat round is not specific. It's abstract, again like AD&D. The combat round may represent several pulls of the trigger on a weapon, but only one attack roll is made.

Each round, a character can move and act. The action may be an attack or soemthing else, like using his comm.

Simple enough. I like it.

Question to investigate: Since a person can fire a whole clip in just a few seconds, how is ammo tracked in this game? Can he reload a magazine and continue to fire in the same one minute combat round?



Attack Throw: I'm not fond of the roll-low T4 task system embraced by this game, but it's just something I'm going to have to accept if I'm to continue with T5. At this point, the heavily disliked task system is not a deal breaker.

And, the combat attack is just another task. Range determines difficulty, not unlike it was with T4.

- The Fighting Task -

Roll xD for a number at or below Skill + Attribute + Mods.

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's talk about the modifiers to the attack throw. T5 (I'm trying not to say "Marc") uses some pretty elegant modifers to the attack throw. I'll need to see how they are in play, but from just reading, I'm liking what I'm seeing.



Range = Difficulty. I've already mentioned that above. Range to your target will tell you how many dice to throw.

Target Number. That's defined by your Skill + Attribute (+ Mods). Roll target or less for a hit.

Abstract. Remember that the combat round, like AD&D (and CT, for that matter) is abstract. A character doesn't get an attack roll for every pull of the trigger. Like an old wargame, one attack is made to represent all combat that happened during that one minute of time. Several shots from the weapon could have been fired.

In CT, the combat round is also abstract. You get one attack throw if your weapon is single shot or semi-automatic. You get two attack throws for a fully automatic burst. Faster firing weapons, like an LMG, get three attack throws. You're not firing per bullet--you make an abstract combat throw to indicate, generally, what happened during the combat round.

It's the same concept used in T5.

Fighting Number. Some numbers will change from round to round. Others won't. To save a step or two and make combat easier, a character's Fighting Number is his constant combat target number. You add and subtract the changing mods from that number.

In most situations, a character's Fighting Number is his Skill + Attribute, but if there are other constant modifiers that a character will use throughout the combat, then the character's FN can be changed to accomodate.

So, when a character attacks, he can quickly figure his target number by taking his FN and adding or subtracting any modifiers for that round.





Modifiers....

Apparent Size: I think this is brilliant. It's a mod to the attack throw to account for the character's perception of his target. The apparent Size modifier is calculated by Target Size minus Range.

Thus, a man is Size 5*. If he's in Range Band 5 (501m to 1000m away), then the modifier is 0. 5 - 5 = 0.

If the man is in Range Band 6, then the Fighting Number is reduced by -1. 5 - 6 = -1.

If the man is in Range Band 2 (6m-50m), then the attacker gets a +3 modifier to his Fighting Number.

Why is this brilliant? Because it's a simple modifier that accounts for the perceived size of the target. A man standing right in front of you is much easier to hit than the same man standing at the end of a football field.

But, doesn't Range and Difficulty take care of that? To a point, yes. But, consider the man in front of you and a football field away, then compare that target to an 18 wheeled tractor trailer truck, right in front of you and 100 yards away. The difficulty stays the same as with the man, but the modifier changes to accomodate different size targets.

Brilliant.



*A man that is half hidden by cover reduces his size to Size 4. A man who sticks his head out of the hatch of a vehicle is considered Size 3.

A crouching man is considered Size 4 becuase he gets -1 Size for the crouch. A prone man is considered Size 3 because he gets -2 Size for lying prone.

A small control sensor (or even a man's eye) is Size 2. Most all vehicles are Size 6. Starships, 2000 tons or less, are Size 7. Bigger starships are Size 8.






Speed: This modifer is to account for firing at moving targets.

As in Classic Traveller, Speed 0 means no movement. Speed 1 is walking speed. Speed 2 is running speed. Vehicles (and, I'm sure, some aliens and animals) can reach Speed 3 or higher.

You use this as a modifier to your FN. If your target is standing still, there's no modifier. If your target is walking, then suffer a -1 modifier to your FN because a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary target. If your target is running, you suffer a -2 modifier to your FN.

Basically, you just subtract your target's speed from your FN. The faster the target is moving, the harder he is to hit**.



**But, there is a provision for targets moving directly away from you or towards you. Ignore the Speed Modifier in these cases. The modifier applies to lateral target movement.


What about Attacker Movement? There are no modifiers for attacker movement as that is built into the types of attacks that can be made.

There are Three Attack Types.

1. Aimed Fire. Attacker cannot move.

2. AutoFire. If the weapon is capable of autofire, Speed 1 means that difficulty is +1D. Thus, if the attack was 2D for FN or less, autofire at Sped 1 will make it 3D for FN or less. Autofire is not possible at Speed 2 or greater.

3. SnapFire. This is multiple quick, less accurate, shots of the weapon. SnapFire can be used at any speed, but it adds +2D to difficulty.

 

[Spartan159]

*A man that is half hidden by cover reduces his size to Size 4. A man who sticks his head out of the hatch of a vehicle is considered Size 3.

A crouching man is considered Size 4 becuase he gets -1 Size for the crouch. A prone man is considered Size 3 because he gets -2 Size for lying prone.

So a prone man half hidden by cover would be size 2?

BTW, from my military experience, there were 2 different defensive descriptions that come back to me, cover and concealment. Cover was hard protection, sandbags, trees, fighting pit, etc. Concealment was how well you were hidden, and did not provide "armor" protection but would reduce your "target size". Cover would provide both a smaller target and also protection, where as Concealment only makes you a smaller target. Have not read enough yet to know if this makes any difference.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's some other factors that can alter the attack throw in this game.



Cover. If a character has cover, this is a penalty modifier to the attack throw ranging from 0 to -6.

I love this part: If a character uses cover, then he must suffer a penalty equal to half the cover modifer on his own attack throws. This is to account for the difficulty of firing your weapon from a covered position (restrictions of movement and vision).



Concealment. This is a negative modifier to Target Size, akin to what I write about about a character crouching or going prone.





AND NOW FOR MY FAVORITE RULE THAT I'VE READ SO FAR. I think Marc did a fantastic job making the Tactics skill important to personal combat. It's not unlike some Classic Traveller House Rules that I've seen for the skill in years past.

Tactics. At the start of a combat encounter, a character with the Tactics skill adds it to his EDU score. Then, he rolls 2D and substracts that sum from his Tactics total.

Example: EDU 8 and Tactics-4. 8 + 4 = 12.

Roll 2D: result is 7.

12 - 7 = 5.

The character's tactics modifier is +5, and he can use this modifier himself or direct it any ally with which he can communicate.

If the Tactics mod ends up being a negative number or zero, then there is not Tactics benefit for that entire combat.

If the Tactics mod is positive (as in the example above), then one character can use that modifier in any combat round. The character with the tactics skill directs who gets to use the Tactics mod during any given round.

C'mon. That's pretty damn cool.

 

[Baltech Budapest]

Thanks Supp 4 this is excellent. I'm liking the sound of this.

 

[navanod]

I'm just in the process of getting my group playing T5 - all fairly experienced role-players, no Traveller fans. We've played two sessions so far, mostly relatively simple combat encounters to get a feel for the system, but I have to say, I'm impressed with how it plays. Combats have been a bit slow to start with, but everybody 'got' how the basic system works in short order. And I think once I have all of the benchmark sizes/ranges/etc down, it will flow quite a bit faster. There's a lot of meat and detail to the system, but once it's understood, it works. As a bonus, we're using a lot of equipment converted from another game system with the various Makers (guns, armor, vehicles, and sophonts, so far) and it seems like it's fairly well integrated and compatible. I agree, the presentation could have been better, but the system is definitely viable, imho.

 

[Supplement Four]

So a prone man half hidden by cover would be size 2?

Good question.

As I read it (Rob or Don, correct me if I'm wrong here), going prone allow the target to lowe his size by -2. That makes him Size 3.

For the cover portion, the player, with the GM's approval, decides how much cover he is using, in terms of the modifier: 0 to -6. At half cover, let's say the player choose the -4 modifer.

Thus, the attack throw to hit this half covered, prone character would use a -4 cover penalty to the FN at Size 3.

Remember that the prone target will suffer a -2 penalty to his attacks for the cover.




Example Attack Throw:

Target is in range band 3 (51m to 150m).

Attacker DEX + Skill = 11.

Range = 3. So, it's 3D for FN or less to hit target. FN = 11.

Attacker is using aimed fire, and therefore is not moving.

Target is not moving. Speed 0. No modifier.

Target is prone. Which give no modifer (there's no bonus for range that would happen if the target were standing). Size - Range = Modifier. 3 - 3 = 0. (If target was standing at this range, the attacker would get a +2 bonus to hit.)

Target is half covered, with a -4 modifier.

The task to hit this target is: 3D for (11 - 4) or less.

Or, more simply: 3D for 7 or less.

According to the charts in the front of the book, that's a 16% chance. But, don't forget, the attack still has to penetrate to do damage.

BTW, from my military experience, there were 2 different defensive descriptions that come back to me, cover and concealment. Cover was hard protection, sandbags, trees, fighting pit, etc. Concealment was how well you were hidden, and did not provide "armor" protection but would reduce your "target size". Cover would provide both a smaller target and also protection, where as Concealment only makes you a smaller target. Have not read enough yet to know if this makes any difference.

Yes, it is described as you say in the book. Cover reduces the chances a target will be hit by using a penalty modifier. Concealment reduces the perceived size of a target, which can also make the target harder to hit, depending on range.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm going to make comments as I read the rules. Note that my opinion may change after I end up grasping an entire concept.

Verbose: My first thought as I started reading--and this is an extremely minor nit-pick--is that Marc is a bit wordy, almost academic, with the text. He writes in a style that requires careful reading and re-reading. Some people (I've read in reviews) are having trouble with the rules, wanting examples. I wonder if Marc's writing style has something to do with this. And, maybe the page count could have been cut down a bit, too.

But, like I said, this is an itty-bitty thing, hardly worth mentioning.

It is not itty-bitty if it hampers comprehension, repels the first time reader (never mind those new to the game), and interferes with easy reference.

 

[pendragonman]

Supplement Four,

I see your work on ranged combat. Do you have time to work up a Hand to Hand example? Ala Chuck Norris Vs Bruce Lee?

 

[Supplement Four]

Range Bands: I first spied Range Bands in Starter Traveller (which was also my introduction to Traveller). They're back in T5. And, this time, the rules show how the Range bands can be set to different scales. That's a plus, in my book. Same concept used at different unit measures.

I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to say that I do, indeed, like playing with Range Bands vs. hard count measured distance. It's so much easier on the GM, and Range Bands give you a sense of range without forcing you to use graph paper or some other hard measuring device.

As it is said in Classic Traveller, a GM can just keep track of range using a normal sheet of lined notebook paper, placing penciled dots in the lines, each line representing a range band.

The GM can easily describe the action vividly, and players don't have to fuss with moving their characters exactly X amount of feet during their turn.

With combat, you're not measuring exact range to every target ever combat round--that's so much easier, and quicker, during combat.

If a GM wants, he can easily use some sort of plot, like hex or graph paper. I've done that in the past, just to show players relative distance. You're still not counting squares or hexes for combat range.

If the range is close to one of the Range Band breaks, I usually use some feature on the map to remind me where the break is. For example, if the NPCs are advancing on the players, if the NPCs get past a certain rock formation, that's the line I've designated as the switch from one Range Band to another.

There are Three Attack Types.

2. AutoFire. If the weapon is capable of autofire, Speed 1 means that difficulty is +1D. Thus, if the attack was 2D for FN or less, autofire at Sped 1 will make it 3D for FN or less. Autofire is not possible at Speed 2 or greater.

Although not specifically spelled out in the rules (not yet, anyway), logic says that this rule is speaking to personal speed, not relative speed.

It makes sense that you can't fire your AK-47 while running all-out, but you could fire it standing in the back of a flat-bed pick-up truck, even though the truck is moving at greater than Speed 2.

It is not itty-bitty if it hampers comprehension, repels the first time reader (never mind those new to the game), and interferes with easy reference.

I don't think the structure of the text is that hampering, Gypsy. I hesitated above to even mention it. Sure, I think there could have been some economy of word use used--and maybe some things stated a bit more clearly. But, any intelligent gamer should have no problem.

One of the most difficult things is the change in terminology. For example, when EDU is referenced, Marc uses the term C5 (for the 5th characteristic in the UPP). That's just going to take some getting used to. I know that, when I read "C5" at this point, I have to stop and count, "Now, which one is the fifth stat? STR, DEX, END, INT...oh yeah, it's EDU."

 

[Supplement Four]

Supplement Four,

I see your work on ranged combat. Do you have time to work up a Hand to Hand example? Ala Chuck Norris Vs Bruce Lee?

I'm commenting and reading as I go. Nothing on hand to hand combat, but I'll try to remember to come back to this question when I do get to that part.

Rob, Don, or anybody else, feel free to answer this question if you can.



EDIT: Before I read any more, I'll take a stab at this. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, AS I HAVEN'T FINISHED READING THE COMBAT CHAPTER YET. But, I think there is not difference in hand-to-hand and ranged combat in this game. I believe it's all the same task.

Thus, the range for brawling is probably Very Short, making it a 1D task to strike your foe.

There's probably some modifier that adjusts the FN, I'm guessing. I'll keep reading and let you know.

Question to Investigate: How is Brawling handled in this game?

 

[Supplement Four]

Oh, I don't know if I made this clear above.

Range = Difficulty. I've already mentioned that above. Range to your target will tell you how many dice to throw.

Here are the Personal Combat Range Bands

0 - Contact
R - Reading
T - Talking

1 - Very Short. 5 m.
2 - Short. 50m.
3 - Medium. 150 m.

4 - Long. 500 m.
5 - Very Long. 1000 m.
6 - Distant. 5 km.

7 - Very Distant. 50 km.
8 - Orbit. 500 km.
9 - Far Orbit. 5000 km.



Your Range difficulty is the range number. Thus, targets at Long range is a 4D task. Targets at Contact, Reading, or Talking range all use 1D difficulty. And, I'm assuming, as I read, that I will find that weapons have maximum ranges, probably out to Range Band 5, Very Long range.

This makes it easy on the GM. If all the bad guys are approaching on foot, at Medium range, then all attacking tasks to hit them will be at 3D (until they get closer at Short range, and so on).

 

[atpollard]

So theoretically, I could shoot Pluto from Earth with a really lucky shot?
Oops, wrong far orbit.
Never mind.

 

[SanDragon]

Supplement Four,

I see your work on ranged combat. Do you have time to work up a Hand to Hand example? Ala Chuck Norris Vs Bruce Lee?

As I recall, Chuck lost.

 

[Supplement Four]

So theoretically, I could shoot Pluto from Earth with a really lucky shot?
Oops, wrong far orbit.
Never mind.

You jest, but maybe there's some sort of high tech shoulder fired missile that you could create with a maker that would shoot into far orbit?

You'd still have a hell of a chance hitting anything with 9D difficulty.

 

[pendragonman]

As I recall, Chuck lost.

It was the only "famous" one I could recall. And yes, until Bruce died Chuck only got bad guy roles so he lost alot.

 

[pendragonman]

I'm commenting and reading as I go. Nothing on hand to hand combat, but I'll try to remember to come back to this question when I do get to that part.

Rob, Don, or anybody else, feel free to answer this question if you can.



EDIT: Before I read any more, I'll take a stab at this. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, AS I HAVEN'T FINISHED READING THE COMBAT CHAPTER YET. But, I think there is not difference in hand-to-hand and ranged combat in this game. I believe it's all the same task.

Thus, the range for brawling is probably Very Short, making it a 1D task to strike your foe.

There's probably some modifier that adjusts the FN, I'm guessing. I'll keep reading and let you know.

Question to Investigate: How is Brawling handled in this game?

So, if your stab is correct, Wally Martel First Baronet of Pecias, Permatic Imperium, 99A8Cc, Skills: Animals-0 (Riding)-1, Art (Sketch)-1, Driver-0 (Wheeled)-1, Engineer-2 (Power Plants)-2, Explosives-1, Fighting-6 (Unarmed)-2, Flyer-0 (Grav)-1, Hostile Environment-1, Language (Battle)-6, Leader-3, Mechanic-1, Medic-1, Stealth-2, Tactics-3

Has a Hand to Hand FN of 9 (dex) + 2 (unarmed knowledge)+6 (Fighting/fighter skill)= 17

and striking a Human (size 5) at vshort (1) range (since Wally is going with the roundhouse kick and not throwing something) gives me a mod of +4

Target is moving to contact (at Wally) so speed is irrelevant, but wants wants to use his kick so he go hasty (+1 die)

So net result is 2D<21 to hurt this guy. Plus, hasty stops the target's attack. Wicked.

The bonus here is this is (mostly) non-lethal. Easy for Wally to stop once the target is unconscious.