• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Tractor Beams/Gravitic Weapons... and why not?

I would like to start this as a Technical Discussion, so if you dont mind, let's keep the answers in that arena, instead of saying "Becuase its not Canon, etc."

The OTU is rife with mention of "Repulsors" in use as a missile defense, in Bay weapon form... this may be a very old string to harp on, but why not Tractor Beams?

Moreover, Why not Gravitic Weapons. If the technology is available to construct Grav Belts, why couldnt a man-portable Gravitic Weapon be developed?

Initial thoughts would suggest such a weapon could be used in crowd control, making targets too heavy or too light to be effective... or perhaps as an indirect fire weapon, damaging targets by flying debirs, Collapsing structures, etc. A more Gruesome application could be had if a tight focused differential Grav field were fired at a target causing only parts of it to weigh more, a lot more... enough to rip it to peices?

Any thoughts?

omega.gif
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
The OTU is rife with mention of "Repulsors" in use as a missile defense, in Bay weapon form... this may be a very old string to harp on, but why not Tractor Beams?
Are you sure the repulsor isn't an EM thing?

Assuming that it is some tractor beam item, maybe they only have any decent potence very nearby (maybe fall off in power is by cube or 4th power of range) and thus only work defensively (since the missiles, etc are trying to reach you, therefore they enter effective range). This could explain the defense-only usage.

Moreover, Why not Gravitic Weapons. If the technology is available to construct Grav Belts, why couldnt a man-portable Gravitic Weapon be developed?
Some PAs could be imagined as gravitic. For that matter, some high tech gauss rifles (Say a TL14 or TL15 version) could be imagined as gravitic.

Initial thoughts would suggest such a weapon could be used in crowd control, making targets too heavy or too light to be effective...
There are more promising technologies for this - microwave fences, puke lasers, solidofoam, etc.

or perhaps as an indirect fire weapon, damaging targets by flying debirs, Collapsing structures, etc.
Whatever gives you the impression that Grav weapons or Tractors are not LoS? I see no evidence to suggest they do not require LoS...

A more Gruesome application could be had if a tight focused differential Grav field were fired at a target causing only parts of it to weigh more, a lot more... enough to rip it to peices?
This would be about as lethal as the 'disintegrator pistol' or 'neural weapons vs. the unshielded'. It should be outside OTU tech levels.
 
By Los you mean Line of Sight, yes?

and as to the TL question, consider that OTU grav tech allows for controllable variable grav plating and inertial compensators... as well as controllable grav modules that are able to move payloads in omnidirectional paths, I dont see why the afformentioned Grav weapon would be that impossible... unless it is a "Canon" issue...

omega.gif
 
Baron Saarthuran wrote:

"I would like to start this as a Technical Discussion, so if you dont mind, let's keep the answers in that arena, instead of saying "Becuase its not Canon, etc."


Baron,

Sure, why not?

"The OTU is rife with mention of "Repulsors" in use as a missile defense, in Bay weapon form... this may be a very old string to harp on, but why not Tractor Beams?"

Why not indeed? TNE's Regency Sourcebook has the Darrian TL16 patrol cruisers mounting a combination repulsor/tractor beam. They use them for shuttling cargo and people containers about.

"Moreover, Why not Gravitic Weapons. If the technology is available to construct Grav Belts, why couldnt a man-portable Gravitic Weapon be developed?"

Power requirements? - Can you carry enough power plant to provide enough 'oomph'? Limited field effects? - Can you 'focus' the anti-grav or contragrav effects precisely or accurately enough? The particulars of the technology aren't easily 'weaponized'? - Take the known capabilities of grav belts, how would you use that effect as a weapon? Maybe any effect is too clunky? Easily defended against or detected? - All a defender need do is direct their own beam or powering up a beam makes you a nifty target on everyone's sensors?

"Initial thoughts would suggest such a weapon could be used in crowd control, making targets too heavy or too light to be effective..."

Riot control repulsors are a nifty idea. How would the repulsor effect an atmosphere? Does the effect 'cycle' too quickly thus hitting any rioters with too much force? 'Smooshing' instead of 'pushing'? Icky...

"... or perhaps as an indirect fire weapon, damaging targets by flying debirs, Collapsing structures, etc. A more Gruesome application could be had if a tight focused differential Grav field were fired at a target causing only parts of it to weigh more, a lot more... enough to rip it to peices?"

Indirect fire requires an adequate range but HG2 has repulsors effecting missile strikes in space combat. Unknown space combat ranges perhaps, but still space combat ranges. The repulsors are in 50 and 100 dTon bays and need lots of EPs. Can the technology be scaled done enough to cram into a dirtside vehicle? A cluster of vehicles?

"Any thoughts?"

Lots! I like the idea and can't wait to see other takes on it.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
By Los you mean Line of Sight, yes?
Indeed. LoS (Line of Sight). Sorry for the TLA.

and as to the TL question, consider that OTU grav tech allows for controllable variable grav plating and inertial compensators... as well as controllable grav modules that are able to move payloads in omnidirectional paths, I dont see why the afformentioned Grav weapon would be that impossible... unless it is a "Canon" issue...
Two reasons: 1) it may be too dangerous (as your last paragraph depicts it) to allow to players usually, thus a 'play balance' issue. and 2) it might be *sort of* a canon issue, in that the Traveller rules have always had a tech tree and I see this particular application as being beyond the normal use of grav tech, so therefore TL16+.
 
We are speaking technically, not about game balance...yet...

"airrafts" are in operation at 8 (acc. to the THb) Gravitics take over transport accross the board at 10... Grav belts at 12... it seems likely that such a device would be possible, perhaps not practical, yes...

It may be gruesome, but no more than a fusion or plasma gun, "the great imbalancers"

Would such a weapon inflict organic damage similar to High G manuvers of Aircraft? Blackouts, etc?

What about a weapon that would be sophisticated enough to gravitically control molecular motion in an object/target? A heat/cold weapon?

The parameters are nebulous indeed,

omega.gif
 
Hello My Baroni.
Try a microwave rifle for the temp weapon. yes thats a lot of power so, battle armor, fusion weapons run on 9v cells???.
How about a grav missile (a standard missile that can generate a grav field for 5 seconds of 200g, this will turn most crew into paste as it crosses the ship, the first time you use it they wont target them because the will miss the ship unless they think they are lazer missiles, if you launch 2 the first will clear the sandcaster rounds for you to.
TDX would make a lovely mine field (think german jumping jack mines), Arty with tdx warheads and prox sencers.
All those grav vehicles now have to armor all six sides the same, the weight just went up and the drive train and structure, Battle dress just go heavier.
Howabout a meson grenade launcher (meson grenade not the launcher).
Gota go.
Bye
sock.
 
Hmmm.... I was thinking more along the lines of a shaped charge... we have a test payload on the board called the GPM-10x, or Gravitic Profiled Missile, Mk 10, experimental, nicknamed the Assegai, because of its blast pattern...

Couldnt such a missile use microgravity, or the ships mass (on contact with the ship) to do the deed? such a weapon would be Brutal...

Wouldn't a microwave gun be a type of high spectum laser?
I was thinking along the lines of a weapon that would directly alter molecular motion gravitically, if that is possible, not only heating, but freezing too (by stopping Molecular motion) eh?

omega.gif
 
What you're talking about is causing a gravity field at a distance from the devices in question.

A better application for such: Mass Drivers.

Yup, accelerate things at 100-600g with your 'displaced' field compensating. Thus you could put a guy in a vacc suit in one and fire him away at 600g and he wouldn't feel a thing.

Could also be used to continue acceleration away from the craft. The only real concerns are a) cost of construction and operation and b) power requirements.

Should both be acceptable (depends on what speeds you want. Even assuming 100% efficiency min energy to launch = 1/2 x mass x (change in speed)squared) provides an interesting possibility with regard to fighters, whereby the leave the ship at combat speed, or greater if they need to reach a target ASAP. Think battlestar galactica.

EDIT: It also makes sand casters no longer purely defensive. Firing 1kg of sand at 0.1c with a decent spread...... sure, they can try to dodge,
 
Microwave are lower frequency than IR, higher than radar. A microwave weapon is going to suck for range, having about 1/10,000th the wave length of light.

As to the grav question, well, I think it's probably a minimum size issue. The grav belts of olde (MT, CT I suppose too) were actual anti-grav devices, but in TNE it's ContraGrav and you need a thrusting agent (ducted fans are recommended). I think this does a better job at avoiding the issue, as there can be a minimum size for antigrav to prevent their use as MP weapons.

Canonically speaking, pushing with grav has been easy enough that it could be done at TL9. Pulling didn't happen until TL16. Even then, you couldn't use the tool as a jump damper until about TL20-21.

As for weapons with high-G impartation, well, vehicle design has always been limited to 6 Gs, so why should a projectile be any different? (Because it IS, dammit!) But that's going to be a big power drain. (And Meson guns AREN'T?) Ok, gravity can't be "focused". A repulsor is effective only when the object is close. You're not going to do much better than a tank gun (which does several hundred Gs now) for very far. Trying to blast sand is going to throw it in so many directions you'll be lucky to hit anything, and it's not going to have all that much energy behind it anyway: military hulls are armored beyond the bare necessities of their particular engine output.

Pushing works best on a single object. Pulling does too, but I suppose you COULD pull a cloud to you. No reason why a TL16 sandcaster doesn't use grav fields to do the work.

A ship-mounted grav gun isn't going to be too much more powerful than a regular gun, as far as I can see. Maybe double-triple the overall energy imparted.
 
This is something that has bugged me for a while. If you have gravitic technology, enough to suspend an air raft, or control gravity aboard a spacecraft so you are not floating around, you would probably have tractor/repulsor beams anyway.

Also, If Alcubierre is right as far as warp drive goes, and that can be done, you might also get shielding in the bargain. (As well as gravitic technology anyway.)

I need to talk to someone who knows about solotons and fourier analysis, but I am thinking that to accomplish the task of warp drive, you need to bend space in a particular fasion. In order to do *that* send out a pair of mismatched gravity wave beams (think gravity lasers) that will interfere with each other, a set distance from the ship, to provide the pattern that is required. (Does this make sense to anyone else?)

As the beams interfere, you end up with bended space-time. You can use that to hover a craft, envelope your ship in a bubble, alter the bubble walls such that it speeds off at FTL toward a distant target, or set the walls up such that they reflect any incoming mass or energy, like a force field. Same technology, or scientific principle, many different applications. Its all just a difference in geometry.

How does this play out in game balance? There is a lot of star trek stuff you can do, and you may not want the players to be given acess to all those possibilities. Once you have tractor beams, repulsor are fairly easy, and combining them makes a great weapon, shaking an opponent apart.
 
Hello.
The weapon would be the Tractor/Pressor beam from star fleet battles (Andromedans).
As an aside a microwave gun has the same range loss as a lazer (both Electromagnetic waves), lower freq is harder to transmit but the propergation is the same.
Bye.
 
The best kind of grav weapon is one that accelerates a fragile object (like a person) over a short distance. This is a grav cannon. You could use a grav cannon for personal transportation, so long as the grav cannon is precisely aimed and there is another grav cannon waiting to slow you down. If a grav cannon works fast enough, you could even shoot a person from ship to ship without a spacesuit, the air around him would have no time to decompress as it is shot with him. Gravity itself is a weak force, it is more useful in what it can accelerate than being a weapon itself. It is easier to accelerate whats in your gun barrel than some distant object thats 1000 km away. Nothing can block gravity, gravity can't be focused. The only way to counter gravity is with antigravity of equal magnitude. A tractor beam requires a long range gravity field, and gravity diminishes with the square of the distance. You can't make a gravity laser because gravity can't be reflected and lasers require mirrors.
 
Originally posted by Drakon:
This is something that has bugged me for a while. If you have gravitic technology, enough to suspend an air raft, or control gravity aboard a spacecraft so you are not floating around, you would probably have tractor/repulsor beams anyway.
Bear in mind that replusor/tractor systems require the ability to project the gravitic effect, and air/rafts and on-board gravity control do not.

Also, MT gave us repulsors and TL10 (same as HG, IIRC), and tractors at TL16 (for the 100 DTon bays). For reasons unknown to me TNE's FF&S swapped tractors and repulsors, so that tractors were the low-TL device (they start at TL12 while repulsors sart at TL16).
 
This makes no sense. A repulser starts out close and pushes away. A tractor reaches out and pulls toward itself. The tractor needs to have a greater range than the repulsor. On the otherhand a repulsor requires antigravity. To get antigravity, you need negative mass and negative energy. At least we know how to make gravity, just put alot of mass in one place.
 
*PHYSICS IDIOCY ALERT*
The following is a question from somewhat of a physics dunce...
*PHYSICS IDIOCY ALERT*

Umm, if you were to develop tractor/pressor fields for the large scale effects you'd need to have an impact on spacecraft and whatnot, wouldn't there be a bit of inertia to contend with?
If both ships were in motion, say...what would the overall effect of a tractor/pressor field have on an established vector?
Aside from the relatively munchkinish assumption that smaller ships would be drug towards larger ones, I get the creeping feeling that wouldn't *necessarily* be the case (although I cannot for the life of me figure out why...).
If you engaged in any kind of a maneuver whilst connected to another vessel via the tractor/pressor field, I can see that as imparting some nightmarish pitch/roll/yaw effects on both ships. Kinda like having two bodies attached by a cable, starting them spinning, and then adding a bit of a nudge in some direction or another.
It all makes my head hurt...
*wishes he were sick again, just for that lovely Mexican cough syrup...*
 
Okay, before you can make a "gravitic weapon", you have to understand the nature of Gravity -- and then the nature of the Sci-Fi "Technobabble" that's been associated with Gravity.

So, what is Gravity? That's simple, we all know that. Gravity is a "force" (I won't go into just what kind of force, now) which "attracts"; that is, it pulls things towards the source of gravity. It PULLS.

Okay, that's Gravity. Now, the next step is to define "Gravitic Technology". What is "Gravitic Technology". Well, as I see it, there are three basic Grav Technologies. The first, and most basic Grav Technology is Anti-Gravity. You should think of Anti-Gravity technology as Gravity Shielding -- that is, it "shields" you from Gravity.

A really bad analogy for this effect is an umbrella in a rainstorm. If you think of the force of Gravity as the rain (which is a bad analogy, because rain "falls", while gravity "pulls"), but anyway, if you think of the force of Gravity as the Rain, then the Umbrella is the Anti-Gravity effect. The bigger the umbrella, the drier you get = the stronger the Anti-Gravity shield, the less hold Gravity has on you. Another, slightly better, analogy is that of the Helium Baloon....Gravity is pulling you "down". A really weak AG shield would be like grabbing 1 helium-filled baloon. The stronger the AG shield gets, the more helium baloons you are holding.

Thus, the Anti-Gravity Effect works to reduce the Apparent Weight of items inside the field. It doesn't "push", it doesn't "pull", it just negates the affect of the existing gravity in the area. Anti-Gravity technologies would be limited to those technologies that have to do with Lifting -- AG Backpacks, AG Cargo Pallets, AG Beds. These items would be set for Percentage of Local Gravity Nullified. Thus, the AG Backpack, set at 50% Nullification, would make the contents "appear" to "weigh" half as much as they really do. As far as an Anti-Gravity weapon...the only one I can think of is an AG Landmine. Set for 100% Nullification, once tripped/activated everything inside the area of effect would suddenly become COMPLETELY shielded from the effects of the planet's gravity. Out in space this would mean nothing, but on the surface of a planet, suddenly losing the pull of gravity meant that anything inside the area of effect would be affected ONLY by the spin of the planet -- thus you would be flung into the air at the rotational speed of the planet -- with, for Earth, is, like, 25 miles per second. Imagine, you're walking along and suddenly -- pop! -- the AG Landmine activates, and you are flung up into the air at 25 mi/s. However, you are flung off at a TANGENT -- NOT straight up! So, a few seconds later, you slow down enough for gravity to once again start pulling you down -- from about a half-mile up! Can you say "Squish"?

The second Gravitic Technology that would be developed would be the artificial creation of a Gravitic Field, or Artificial Gravity. This technology SIMULATES the gravitic effect of "pulling", without the need of all that nasty old MASS. Thus, a 1 meter square of wiring and composite alloys, along with enough electrical power, can, from up to 3 meters, or so, produce the same amount of attraction towards itself -- the same amount of "pull" -- that it takes the entire PLANET to produce, through sheer bulk. Pretty impressive, actually. But, in a sci-fi world, fairly simple technology.

The most obvious device that uses this technology is Deckplating in starships and space stations. Also, flooring of buildings on low-G worlds can be similarly equipped. Entire communities on low-G worlds can be outfited this way. As for Weapons that can make use of this Technology, the most obvious is the Grav-Bomb. A small Grav Generator is designed to rapidly overload -- thus creating an intense, localized Grav Field. In otherwords, a Micro Singularity. This effect is uncontrolled, and fairly short ranged -- because the generator is destroyed within microseconds of activation. But then, so is the mechanism of a Thermonuclear bomb. The effect of a Grav-Bomb is an Implosion. For just a second, everything in the area of effect is sucked in towards the center of the Implosion -- structures suffer sudden sheer and torsion, buildings collapse, hullplating is ripped of ships, missiles (and maybe even lasers!) are pulled off-course.
A "focused" Artificial Gravity "beam" is called a Tractor Beam; but all it can do is "pull". This COULD be used offensively -- to yank folks off their feet, alter the course of objects in-flight, tear down walls, etc. -- by judicious use of a momentary "on-off" pulse of the generator. Also, a vehicle passing overhead (or in orbit) could grab a target on the ground, lift it up, then drop it from graet height. Or, a pair of Tractor Beams, working together from different vectors, could target the same object, and rip it apart with differential forces.

And finally there is Contragrav. This technology generates a gravitic "force" which, instead of "pulling" has the reverse effect -- it "pushes". This is the technology of Thrusters, and the (CT) Grav Belt. As far as weapon usage is concerned, this is also the most variable technology.
A Contragrav-Bomb would generate an expanding shockwave -- i.e., an Explosion, but without any thermal effects (no heat/flames/plasma, etc.)
A focussed Contragrav "beam" is a Repulsor. A Repulsor beam, at low levels, can be used to give objects a good hard "push" -- like people, in-coming missiles, walls, etc. At higher energy levels, the Repulsor Beam becomes a Shock Cannon (also called a Grav Lance), striking a target with pure, damaging, kinetic "force".
Also, small Repulsor generators could be used to impart high-velocity to solid objects. Thus a gravitic equivalent of the Gauss weapons is possible.

All these weapons are possible, it's just a question of application of energy, and energy efficiency.

ALL of these "gravitic weapons" would be short ranged. All the various gravitic "bombs" would have smaller areas of effect than either their conventional chemical, or nuclear, counterparts. The only difference is that gravitic bombs don't produce radiation side-effects -- of either the thermal or ionizing types. Shock Cannons are neat, but lasers have a longer range So do particle weapons. And they have less kick-back -- must remember Newton's Third! -- and, probably, use less power.

But none of this INVALIDATES the technology! I can see advantages of dropping a few Grav-Bombs rather than a few Nukes, if I have the choice. And, just like Nukes, Grav-Bombs have the advantage of smaller size over Chemical Explosives of similar power. Shock Cannon may have lower range than Lasers, but hit something with a Laser Cannon, and you just melt a hole in it -- smack something with a Shock Cannon, and you smash it back across the battlefield! Anything behind it goes Crunch!

That's just my 2 credits worth, anyway....
 
Originally posted by Lord Vince:
As far as an Anti-Gravity weapon...the only one I can think of is an AG Landmine. Set for 100% Nullification, once tripped/activated everything inside the area of effect would suddenly become COMPLETELY shielded from the effects of the planet's gravity. Out in space this would mean nothing, but on the surface of a planet, suddenly losing the pull of gravity meant that anything inside the area of effect would be affected ONLY by the spin of the planet -- thus you would be flung into the air at the rotational speed of the planet -- with, for Earth, is, like, 25 miles per second. Imagine, you're walking along and suddenly -- pop! -- the AG Landmine activates, and you are flung up into the air at 25 mi/s. However, you are flung off at a TANGENT -- NOT straight up! So, a few seconds later, you slow down enough for gravity to once again start pulling you down -- from about a half-mile up! Can you say "Squish"?
I am not a scientist (rocket or otherwise), but I doubt it would work like this. The anti-gravity might cancel you gravitational attraction to the planet, but, without a corresponding "push", there is no reason to believe you will "fly" away. Likewise, the earth moving at 25 m/s isn't too big of a deal, as the victim is also moving at 25 m/s. While they victim may start slowing down, they won't lose all of their momentum immediately.

Most likely the victim will be out of the field of effect long before sufficient relative speed and height have been gained.
 
Hello.
Two points (both of which i probably have wrong).
1 - Nul grav mine = wouldn't you rise at 32feet per sec not squared(on earth) until you left the nul grav field then gravity would slow you down and then pound you into the ground at 32 feet per sec/per sec (1g).
2 - With contra grav you could set up a force field around your ship that would keep out material objects (missiles, PA's, gamma radiation), this would also allow you to get up to near light speeds, yes we are probably talking shit loads of power hear but in combat is it better to end the battle with low power reserves or to win.
Also if contra grav will stop particules will it stop or divert mesons????? ( i assume that a meson screen is just the aiming fields for a meson gun without the generator (you retarget or reenergise the mesons or divert them)).
Just thinking please replie.
Bye.
 
Back
Top