Tourists on Heya

[rancke]

I'm working on an adventure set on Heya. One of the canonical tidbits about Heya is that tourism is an important source of offworld currency for them. So I'd like to work out a set of tables to randomly generate tourists. You know, something like:

Homeworld:

Roll 1d:

1 <name>
2 <name>
3 <name>
4 <name>
5 <name>
6 other

Or perhaps a 2D table would be needed. Any suggestion on where tourists on Heya comes from and in what numbers? There has to be enough of them to make them a significant contribution to the economy of Heya's 70 million inhabitants.

Wealth back home:

1 X credits
2 2X credits
3 5X credits
4 10X credits
5 20X credits
6 50X credits

Or perhaps 1X, 3X, 10X, 30X, 100X, 300X. Or something else? What sort of wealth range do you think would be appropriate?

Modifiers: Homeworld? (Interstellar travel is costly. The further someone have come, the richer they're likely to be, right?)

And a table of how much money do they have access to here on Heya, with their home wealth providing modifiers. So and so many percent of their home wealth, perhaps?

Thoughts, suggestions? Perhaps for other things to roll for?


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Not all tourists would be wealthy.

Some may have saved for several years for a trip, won a trip or working passage, be military tourists on leave (does system have a base?), etc.

How about aliens as tourists?

Oh, and one group of tourists should congregate a lot with holocams slung from their necks.

A tourist world is a good adventure setting - with the Tourist Bureau available to assist, management concern for maintaining proper image, everything readily available for rent, and lots of smiling faces willing to relieve party of coin...

 

[Dragoner]

There are many forms of tourism, best to figure out why first.

 

[Fovean]

One presumes the tourist attraction on Heya is the central jungle, ie, eco-tourism or hunting. Although the hand-shaped continent could provide tidepools, scuba diving, fishing, beaches, etc.

The four closest systems to Heya are definitely not shirt-sleeve worlds, though Kinorb is almost... still, I can definitely see Kinorb's rich retirees taking a trip to Heya's hot springs and mud baths...

Maybe it's a 2D6 table that determines the Homeworld, which provides a mod for a given tour group's wealth:

HOMEWORLD (2D6):
2 Yorbund -3DM
3 Pandrin +0DM
4 Corfu +0DM
5-9 Kinorb +3DM
10 Boughene +1DM
11 TAS Member +2DM
12 MegaCorp Rep/Noble +4DM

WEALTH (1D6 + mod):
<1 Cr100
1 Cr250
2 Cr500
3 Cr1000
4 Cr2000
5 Cr4000
6 Cr8000
7 Cr16000
8 Cr32000
9 Cr64000
10 Cr100000

So your average tourist will be from Kinorb with about Cr8000 in their pocket.

 

[rancke]

I'm thinking about a formula to give a relative (not absolute) number of tourists from another world. Something like this:

Population/<distance squared> * Currency

Population is the population of the world divided by 100,000. Worlds with populations below 100,000 are ignored.

The further away a world is, the more expensive it is to visit and the more alternate destinations there are closer to the world.

The stronger a currency is, the wealthier the people of the world are.

So Yorbund would have a factor of 2/1*0.1 = 0.2
Dentus would have one of 9/4*0.4 = 0.9
Kinorb would have one of 67/4*0.3 = 5.0
Keng would have one of 8200/9*0.003 = 2.8
Enope would have one of 63,760/16*0.05 = 199

And so on.

One could then sum up the factors and work out the proportional number of tourists from each world.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I would think that you would be better working out a formular based on average per capita income vs the costs involved in reaching Heya.

For example if it costs 4 times my anual income to go on holiday to Heya I will never be going.
If it costs my annual income to go to Heya, I may, if I really really wanted, go once in my lifetime.
If it costs half my annual income, I'd likley go for a once in my lifetime experiance.
If it costs 10% of my annual income I might go once every five years.
And if it costs 2.5% of my anual income I might go every year.

And then work out the % of population who can afford to go to Henya.

If that doesn't work out then you will have write something that will attract the Mega rich from around the Subsector, who will bring their enterages with them, as well as their pots of money.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

So your average tourist will be from Kinorb with about Cr8000 in their pocket.

Another point: Heya has a Gross World Product of 300 billion credits (MCr295,680 according to Striker). How much money does it take to be a significant source of offworld credits? It helps a lot that the local credits are only worth 0.04 imperial credits, but still. So how many tourists are there on Heya at any given time and how much money do they spend on the average?


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Many RW tourist destinations are locally impoverished - tourist dollars go a long way (locally)...

Many RW tourist destinations are located in distance and/or hard to reach places for the tourists who visit them. Flights and cruises may be expensive, but within reach of folks who save/or finance their destinations. These actually probably make up the bulk of tourism economies - not the wealthy, who either don't bother or prefer more exclusivity.

Travel to such places also encourages competition between companies, which may lower the overall price, especially with combination packages that include quarters, meals, entertainment, etc. The normal X credits per journey would be silly to be set in stone for a tourist world...

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind: average monthly expense is LocalCr250 per point of Soc. (MT PM.) Given the rates of Soc climb in CGen, an average should be about Soc 8... KCr2/month.

 

[HiverLord]

IIRC, one of Heya's 'major' sources of income isn't necessarily 'tourism', but the fact that the government charges a mandatory Cr250 'donation' by all visitors to the world, including starship crews, on top of the other usual entry fees, etc. The donation goes into a 'War Widows and Recovery Fund', or some aptly-named fund.

(I remember reading this sometime in the last few months, but can't recall the source. It may be non-canon.)

 

[rancke]

Keep in mind: average monthly expense is LocalCr250 per point of Soc. (MT PM.) Given the rates of Soc climb in CGen, an average should be about Soc 8... KCr2/month.

Serious digression coming up:

According to Striker, Heya has per capita income of Cr3,840. The basic figure for a TL5 world is Cr2000 and Heya is lucky in being both Agricultural (x1.2) and Rich (x1.6). So paying Cr24,000 per year for upkeep would seem a little out of the range of the average Heyan.

In addition to that, each of those 3,840 credits is worth 0.04 of an Imperial credit (assuming Imperial credits are equivalent to the credits of a world with a Class A starport and a TL of 15.) Does that mean that the per capita income of Heya is 96,000 local credits? That would make the average monthly expenses of the average Heya one quarter of his income...

Meanwhile, subsistence on a Long Term Basis is Cr200 per month for good food and Cr200 per month for good lodging [TB:107], leaving our Soc 8 person with Cr1600 per month for clothes and luxuries.

There's something here that doesn't work properly, and I think one of them is increasing the cost of living by Cr250 per social level. The curve should be a lot less steep at the lower levels and a lot steeper at the higher (upper class) levels.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Note that upkeep costs are in Local Credits, NOT Cr Imperial. Living on Heya should be a local cost for Soc 7 — the average for someone capable of getting off world — Each point of soc, using the MT numbers, is LCr250/mo x 13 mo, = LCr3250 per year... or about ImpCr130 per year

Noting that apartment rends in 1977 ranged from about $60/week for an efficiency (1 room) to $500/mo for a 2 bedroom (3.5 room), plus utilities (I've done some looking at old newspapers), AND that all the other goods prices match prices found in Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and Motorweek for 1976-1977...
The minimum wage was $2.20/Hr federally... with an expected 8 hour workday, 5 day week, and 21 workday month. $17.60 per day, x21 days per month, is $369.60/mo expected.

I wouldn't call miminmum wage Soc 7. I'd call that Soc 2 or 3... it was bottom of the barrel at the time... and that's a good basis for calling it Cr 150 per soc for upkeep... I agree, 250 is a bit high. But not orders of magnitude too high. Calling Minimum wage full time Soc 2 gets Cr250/mo... Food, taxes, clothing, and housing.

So, looking in striker, the table is LocalCr per capita... and, BTW, shows a cost of Cr10K for militia and Cr20K for Conscripts per annum... and milita and conscripts are traditionally kept at VERY low standards - shared housing at 5-10x civilly acceptable rates... but it also has been EXPLICITLY decanonized. (as has the version in TCS.)

That table does, however, work nicely with LocalCr250 if the GDP table is read as ImpCr, not LocalCr. In which case, Heya's ImpCr3840/person works out to LocalCr96000 per annum.

And it's surprising how little some "once wealthy" people actually live on, and yet still maintain their social status.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

So what have we got?

That Heya has such a low standard of living that Cr 130 Imperial can keep someone in housing/food/cloathing for a year?

Ok now that's a good draw for Torisum. It's going to be so cheep that you can live like a king for a week on Cr 250 (or 100 times average weekly income).

So to get you there and back one jump away, and to live like a king for two weeks will cost you Cr 500 Imperial Working, Cr 2,500 Low, Cr 16,500 Middle, and Cr 20,500 High.

Now the question becomes how many people within a single jump radious of Heya can afford Cr 2,500 for a once in a lifetime "interstellar" holiday?

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Average yearly income of Dentus is Cr 3,840 Imperial, Kinorb is Cr 3,072 Imperial, and Yorbund is Cr 480 Imperial.

Population of Dentus is 500,000 sophants
Population of Kinorb is 6,000,000 sophants
Population of Yorbund is 200,000 sophants

So it's not going to be torisum from those populations (although you're going to get the odd one from Kinorb).

Pandrin (Gvurrdon 2240) at Jump 3, has an average yearly of Cr 11,264 Imperial, and a poulation of 2,000,000. Some Vargr from here maybe?

Ksunekso (Gvurrdon 2540) at Jump 3, has an average yearly of Cr 4,320 and a population of 400,000. The occasioanl Vargr from here?

Lablon J3, average yearly of Cr 5,184 and a population of 500,000. The ocasional one from here?

I'd suggest that there isn't the population or the wealth to sustain 70 million people via space tourisum in the local area.

I think you're going to have to find some other means of tourisum.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[BytePro]

Yeah, within one jump, at least from the 3I, there probably isn't enough population to support 70 million tourists... though one could make it the final destination on a multiple hop tourism route, perhaps (from Efate and Feri, most likely). Such would likely require extended low berth travel, 'tourism' rates or some subsidy for some reason or other.

Just to point out though, an 'average' yearly income doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of above (and hence, a lot below) the average... especially when talking a world size population.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Yeah, within one jump, at least from the 3I, there probably isn't enough population to support 70 million tourists... though one could make it the final destination on a multiple hop tourism route, perhaps (from Efate and Feri, most likely). Such would likely require extended low berth travel, 'tourism' rates or some subsidy for some reason or other.

70 million is the Population of Heya that the torisum is supporting. And the populations of Efate and Feri have other places to go cheaper than to Heya. Average income on Efate is Cr 22,400 Imp, cost to Heya is Cr 6,500 Low (3 jumps there), Cr 48,500 Middle. So even with 8 billion people there won't be that meany going to Heya. Feri average is Cr 12,320 (600 mill pop) and cost is Cr 4,500 Low (2 jumps), Cr 32,500 Middle. You might get a few of the really rich on a tour, but you won't get many of your every day "bog standard" tourist.

Just to point out though, an 'average' yearly income doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of above (and hence, a lot below) the average... especially when talking a world size population.

But the world size populations are so low, only about 16 million total sophants within J3 (discounting Corfu), with vastly different average earnings, that even at the top they don't have that much money.

There just isn't the population base with the amount of wealth nessesary to sustain 70 million people on Heya with your "bog standard" tourisum.

I recon it's got to be a draw for the really rich.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Note that upkeep costs are in Local Credits, NOT Cr Imperial. Living on Heya should be a local cost for Soc 7 — the average for someone capable of getting off world — Each point of soc, using the MT numbers, is LCr250/mo x 13 mo, = LCr3250 per year... or about ImpCr130 per year.

As long as the person in question is content to make do with TL5 artifacts and services. As soon as he wants the same sort of medical care that he got back home, holovision entertainment, book chips, personal computer repairs, etc., cost of living is going to rise. Still, food and lodging alone would be a significant saving.

Noting that apartment rends in 1977 ranged from about $60/week for an efficiency (1 room) to $500/mo for a 2 bedroom (3.5 room), plus utilities (I've done some looking at old newspapers), AND that all the other goods prices match prices found in Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and Motorweek for 1976-1977...

The minimum wage was $2.20/Hr federally... with an expected 8 hour workday, 5 day week, and 21 workday month. $17.60 per day, x21 days per month, is $369.60/mo expected.

And you're assuming one 1977 dollar is equivalent to a credit, right? I am.

I wouldn't call miminmum wage Soc 7. I'd call that Soc 2 or 3... it was bottom of the barrel at the time...

The four spending levels set out in TB is Starvation Level, Subsistence Level, Ordinary Level, and High Living. Thast would be, what, Soc 1, Soc 2, Soc 7, and Soc 10?

Assuming food and lodging represents 2/3rds of cost of living, we get the following costs:

Starvation level: Cr180 (Might well be less -- a starvation level food and lodging could be practically the only expenses).
Subsistence level: Cr450
Ordinary level: Cr600
High Living: Cr1350

Or going the other way from the MT rules, people would have the following amount for everything else other than food and lodging:

Soc 1: Cr130
Soc 2: Cr200
Soc 7: Cr1350
Soc 10: Cr1600

(If you disagree with my linking between the four expense levels and social classes, what correspondences would you suggest?)

...and that's a good basis for calling it Cr 150 per soc for upkeep... I agree, 250 is a bit high. But not orders of magnitude too high.

I didn't claim it was orders of magnitude too high. I claimed that cost of living going up linearly was too steep at low levels and not steep enough at high levels. The difference between subsistence level and ordinary living is not a factor 3.5.

Calling Minimum wage full time Soc 2 gets Cr250/mo... Food, taxes, clothing, and housing.

Taxes are not relevant to this. Cost of living comes out of take-home pay. If someone is paying 20% tax, he needs to earn 25% more than his cost of living. If he is paying 50% tax, he needs to earn twice his cost of living.

So, looking in striker, the table is LocalCr per capita... and, BTW, shows a cost of Cr10K for militia and Cr20K for Conscripts per annum... and milita and conscripts are traditionally kept at VERY low standards - shared housing at 5-10x civilly acceptable rates... but it also has been EXPLICITLY decanonized. (as has the version in TCS.)

But since no substitute has been provided, I'm going to keep on using those figures until something better comes around.

EDIT: Actually, I'd be happy to dump the Base Income by TL table from Striker and substitute "The per capita income of a world is by definition Cr10,000 local credits" and then use trade class and currency by starport and TL to establish what they are worth in Imperial credits.

Example: Heya's per capita income would be LoCr10,000 (LoCr = 'Local Credit' (not, as some Imperial wits have it 'Low Credit' )). With a Class B starport and a TL of 5, a local credit would be worth 0.04 Imperial Credits, modified by trade class, for a final result of CrImp0.077.

That table does, however, work nicely with LocalCr250 if the GDP table is read as ImpCr, not LocalCr. In which case, Heya's ImpCr3840/person works out to LocalCr96000 per annum.

Which would give the average Heyan the income to maintain a social level of 32.

And it's surprising how little some "once wealthy" people actually live on, and yet still maintain their social status.

Sure, but the Cr250/SL rule doesn't take that into account, does it? I still say it is seriously broken in more than one way.


Hans

 

[rancke]

That Heya has such a low standard of living that Cr 130 Imperial can keep someone in housing/food/cloathing for a year?

That would be starvation level. I doubt that anyone would pay starship fare to go to Heya to live in a lean-to and eat porridge.

So to get you there and back one jump away, and to live like a king for two weeks will cost you Cr 500 Imperial Working, Cr 2,500 Low, Cr 16,500 Middle, and Cr 20,500 High.

I'm inclined to assume that no one is going to pay several to many thousand credits to go someplace and then only stay for two weeks. IMO the average interplanetary tourist would spend months (at least) at his destination.

Now the question becomes how many people within a single jump radius of Heya can afford Cr 2,500 for a once in a lifetime "interstellar" holiday?

If you try going a little further afield, Efate has a per capita income of Cr25200. That means some Efatans earn a lot more than that. Sure, the percentage of Efatans who can afford to pay for a seven parsec journey (and back) will be low, but a low percentage of 8.4 billion people is still a large number in absolute terms. Say the number who could afford such a trip is 1% (a totally WAG on my part, I admit), and we're talking about 84 million potential tourists. Of course, most of them will stay home or go elsewhere.


Hans

 

[rancke]

70 million is the Population of Heya that the tourism is supporting.

Heya's agriculture is presumably supporting quite a few of its 77 million people. Even without a tourist industry, Heya's per capita income is almost twice the average for a TL5 world (x1.6 for Rich, x1.2 for Agricultural).

Bill Cameron told me in a PM that Mexico's tourist industry is "only" 1.4% of its GNP and provides jobs for 2 million people, a little less than 2% of the population.

And the populations of Efate and Feri have other places to go cheaper than to Heya. Average income on Efate is Cr 22,400 Imp, cost to Heya is Cr 6,500 Low (3 jumps there), Cr 48,500 Middle. So even with 8 billion people there won't be that meany going to Heya. Feri average is Cr 12,320 (600 mill pop) and cost is Cr 4,500 Low (2 jumps), Cr 32,500 Middle. You might get a few of the really rich on a tour, but you won't get many of your every day "bog standard" tourist.

That's what I suspect myself. But how rich? Say the average tourist arrives at Atarishii Down (Heya's downport) and spends three months on Heya. How many Imperial credits does he leave behind when he goes home?


Hans

 

[BytePro]

70 million is the Population of Heya that the torisum is supporting. And the populations of Efate and Feri have other places to go cheaper than to Heya. Average income on Efate is Cr 22,400 Imp, cost to Heya is Cr 6,500 Low (3 jumps there), Cr 48,500 Middle. So even with 8 billion people there won't be that meany going to Heya.

1% of 8 billion is 80 million people... who could easily have an annual income in excess of Cr 450,000 and still easily support a world average of only Cr22,400. They could readily afford such a trip, especially where economic disparity is high and excess income for luxuries readily available to this smaller portion of the world's population.
(Heck, that's the 70 million I mistook for a tourism count! )

Again - average world incomes can be pretty worthless for this sort of analysis. If the above seems unrealistic - look to reality:

• 1 % of the world population own 40 % of the global assets
• over 80 % of the world population lives on less than 10 US$/day
• over 50 % of the world population lives on less than 2 US$/day
• over 20 % of the world population lives on less than 1,25 US$/day

src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_inequality

Most folks I know have made multiple trips to other continents and to far away islands for vacations, often for a good % of their annual salaries, and also often spending a considerable portion of their time in transit (and with multiple layovers!).