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TL 10+ slug throwers

TL10+ military slugthrowers [except gauss guns and pistols] will be fire-and-forget.

And caseless (IMTU anyways).

On the other hand, gauss weapons in the old Andromeda tv show actually fired small magnetically-accelerated rockets, so if you (someone) figures out how to do that in Traveller, your gauss weapons will also be fire and forget.
 
Both of the last two posts once again highlighting that if the round for your personal firearm is not dirt cheap it ain't going to be cost effective.

For the ultimate in fire and forget anti-personel projectiles you need a Culture knife missile...
 
Smarter Bullets

Laser designation and guided bullets means that your 870 is significantly outranged./QUOTE]

Point taken but even in our non-stardrive modern world shotguns can employ some pretty sophisticated and impressive special purpose ammunition. For that matter many exotic rounds can be found for handguns as well, take the 'fictional' loads depicted in the action film, XXX as an example.

Given the obvious 'uplift' of technology that exists in Traveller, the variety of available selection and considerable firepower formerly reserved for larger caliber weapons make handguns and shotguns infinitely more deadly.


I think more my comment was referring to the simple reliability of a .45 automatic and a twelve gauge pump gun.
 
As to electronics v robust technology, there is always the point at which a new technology has become mature. Prior to that point, it may have some prophets who see its potential, or some crackpots who believe that its potential will be greater than what is curently available.

There is a pattern of overlapping effectiveness, where the old tech is still more effective generally than the new technology. Case in point is the internal combustion engine v. the steam engine, or the car v. the steam (or other) train. Initially, when steam engines were a very mature technology, internal compustion engines were all a bit silly; noisy, dirty, using exotic fuel, requiring getting out and cranking, being constrained to wholly inadequate roads, and still getting one there slower than a steam engine using developed rail system. Between WWI and WWII, the steam engine had its hayday, while the constant improvement in road infrastructure and automotive technology brought the internal combustion engine closer to its potential (which I would argue has not been reached). Now fuel cells are in the position that the intenral combstion engine was in.

Now, we get a little emotional about our arms, myself included, which includes nostalgia. (Yes, "we;" I could go on ad nauseum about the older weapons systems that were better than their replacements, and I might be right in some cases...) There is a desire to hold onto the tried and true which has served well.

Well, any new technology must be brought to maturity through investment, and indeed through deployment. You get the equation wrong, men die, enemies laugh, and the pointy-headed staff-weenies and politicians who really made the gaff will be long gone.

The U.S. Army tested a liquid propelled artillery piece at one point; the potential for such a technology is exciting to the military. The program was killed, because the piece (I believe it was a 155) was "subject to spontaneous, uncontrolled disassembly." :rofl:
Good call. The Improved TOW Vehicle, was a bad call. Thankfully, I never had to take my platoon of 8 to the war for which they were designed; it was the best of all possible wars, one which didn't happen. A lot would have died.

Electro/optical weapons sights are a maturing technology that have passed the point where their utility has exceeded iron sights. Not every technology (or combination of technologies into a complex weapon system) ever reaches that point. Note that part of that maturity is seldom a complete replacement; it's about market share. It's also about correctly perceiving the niche of the new technology. Electro/optical sights have been fully accepted not only for their advantages, but because they are employed in accordance with their higher potential for technical problems; modern mounts always give the potential for iron sights as a fall-back. Electro/optical sights are saving U.S. lives today; some might argue their deployment was too slow; at the time prior to full fielding, many groused against them.

Same story for ATGM's; when they were an immature technology in 1973, the Israelis used to see it as a mark of achievement to have a number of expended Sagger wires draped across the front of their APC's. The Sagger did not represent the maturity of the ATGM technology: way too hard for the gun to fly the missile. Neither did the TOW's that we rushed Israel during that war by the planeload, but they were closer; just keep your hips loose, smooth traverses, and keep the crosshairs on the target while the brain box does the rest. The Arabs were terrible shots, and the Israelis were fighting for their very existence. The REAL killer in the Sinai, however, was the very mature RPG, a technology that the Israelis had written off as irrelevant in the desert, the province of the jet fighter-bomber and tank. A lot of IDF died for making that call wrong, but the IDF was an agile organization and was able to correct itself in days.

As to making the exact calls on when we should "leap" from one tech to another, it's probably past any of us on this board; caseless will probably mature further, but its market saturation will probably be incomplete. The arguement that looks at the old technology's simplicity is a limited one, however. This argument was made by the Chief of the Cavalry, Maj. Gen. Herr, to General Marshall when WWII was an inevitability for the U.S.; he was, of course, right in his own way. There are things cavalry can do that Mech still cannot, but being a little right can still leave you very wrong. Marshall spoke to an aide outside the office, and by the time that the 15 minutes of pleasantries at the end of their doctrinal discussion was concluded, the aide had Herr's retirement orders in hand, that also abolished his position. Marshall unerstood the nostalgia for old weapon systems, and the potential for new. Patton, in fact, re-equipped a brigade with captured German horses, but that does not make Marshall wrong. What made Herr dangerous was that there was enough truth in what he was saying to make soem really disasterous policy choices. In WWI, the British shipped more tonnage in horse fodder to their troops than ammunition.

Smart rounds for small arms will mature: they obviously have not. I think their chief use will be localized indirect fire. The 23mm airburst rounds currently contemplated may not have it yet: I do not know about that yet. I believe in Counterinsurgency, which my sons will need to teach their sons, makes direct fire essential, as it requires the judicious use of force. Unobserved indirect fire is always wasteful, and usually ineffective. So the new infantry "smart rounds" may or not be close enough to maturity to be useful, and they are not so smart.

As for the 1911, I owned one, and I was issued another. Nothing even felt as good in my hand as that single stack (I have stubby, sausge-like fingers). It was a great weapon. I believe that my Glock 20 does everything that the 1911 was intended to, much better, however. Was the M9 and improvement? Only partially. A new Berretta beats a broken Colt, and they were broken. (Owned one, issued another M9, too. Got rid of mine. Still have my first "Grock"....) Often the new tech loses something even while being better. That 1911 was still a prettier pistol, and felt better....:nonono:

Bottom line is we can make no assumptions, but should relay on our imaginations. This is a game, a science fiction game, that approximtes space opera behind a fig leaf of science. Make it sound rational, make it cool. We're not going to be right.;)
 
Let's Pretend...

even in our non-stardrive modern world shotguns can employ some pretty sophisticated and impressive special purpose ammunition. For that matter many exotic rounds can be found for handguns as well,

This is where this thread should be going. Imagination, not evaluation.

How about a tracking round? Shotguns offer some interesting potential because of the high volume/velocity ratio. How about a shotgun round that it a mini EMP grenade? Shotguns have the advantage of being acceptable many places that pistols, auto-weapons and energy weapons are not. How about taking the old 870, and adding some really great rounds? (HEAP, HEAP-RAM, CS, tracking droid, other less-than lethal.) They'll probably not look past the buckshot in the top of the loading tube going through customs...

What else?

We can think of all sorts of less-than-lethal stuff, for minimizing legal entanglements. Really, all slug throwers should have some less-than lethal rounds.

Can a pistol launch 4cm RAM grenade? Under what cirsumstances? What can we do with the 4cm packag more than the shotgun?

IR marking? Micro-dot marking?

Tranq for every weapon? How about other drugs? Aphrodesiac (sp?) :p How about a truth serum?

Some sort of molecular acid? Super adhesives? Super abrasives?

What can we IMAGINE??
 
Gauss rifles firing a range of ammo types.

Shotgun launched smart ammo.

Mature binary propellant for slug throwers should trump even caseless ammo.

How about TDX based propellant for slug throwers?

The knife missile...
 
This is where this thread should be going. Imagination, not evaluation.

Certainly, but not forgetting, as it was best put by Scotty, "Ye canna change the laws of physics... "

This is Science Fiction. A balance of imagination and reality. Theoretical not Fantasy is the idea. Of course any science sufficiently advanced will seem like magic. Doesn't mean it IS magic.

There are certain limitations on how much power can be packed into a certain volume. And certain effects to be expected in doing so and delivering it to the target in the case of a weapon.
 
Very true - the realities of physics make a lot of Traveller weapons science fantasy.

Grav focussed lasers? I can think of better weapon applications for such powerful grav fields (artificial black holes for one - singularity cannons anyone?).
 
Actually, Most personal weapons are firmly doable. At least, pre MGT.

The Neural Weapons of MT fame and the CT disintegrators are the notable exceptions.

The Fusion and Plasma guns simply have far more range than realistic, but as Greg Porter notes, can easily be thought of as defocussed CPAWS, using Hydrogen plasma as the particle. (See 3g3 notes on coverting to MT or TNE.)

It's only in the realm of ships' weaponry that it really gets hokey, and that due t ranges that are both excessively long and way outside decent character action scales.
 
Certainly, but not forgetting, as it was best put by Scotty, "Ye canna change the laws of physics... "

Yes, and I advocate nothing of the sort.

Just imagining what one can do with a shotgun, in near-current technology, could take quite a while.

Could a short ranged, soft-launched missile, roughly 18 x 380 mm, with a TDX squash head damage combat armor or battle dress?

What sort of ballistically launched sensors will be possible at TL 12? To what use will such sensors be put?

What is the penetration of a 18mm HEAP at TL13?

I think if we can talk about an EMP grenade, we can make that ballistic.

We have terminally-guided 120mm mortar rounds now; at TL13, why can 4 cm RAM rifle grenades not be terminally guided? Why can't this guidance be through the use of sensors that themselves were ballistically delivered?

The Israelis have a "corner gun" today; why isn't that a part of the standard MOUT kit at TL 10?

Have I suspended the laws of physics yet?

I am thinking I have far less exposure and imagination than many on this board. What can they come up with?
 
Great discussion so far by the way, very much enjoying this.

I'm only really a wannabe gear-head, so I don't really know if I can play with the big boys here...

And I totally dig samuelvss' take on this -- no need to get it right, or really worry about this too much. But I can't help but asking a bunch of questions.

There are three things I'm thinking about when reading. One is the implications of Traveller tech and where that might lead the development of slug throwers, two is to port those ideas into explanations for existing efficiency gains in slug throwers at TLs above our own, and three postulating other items one might see in Traveller.

Materials technology is a good place to start. We have real leaps with materials tech at TL10 with "crystaliron", and TL12 with superdense that will effect how weapons, propellant and load will be manufactured.

Gauss tech -- how fast does it have to shoot to supplant chemically propelled slug throwers? How efficient is the tech? Why a 4mm projectile and not a 9mm projectile or 2mm? What are its disadvantages, and advantages?

"Snub" guns -- what are they REALLY? How much of a departure are snub guns from present day slug throwers? Why don't we have "shaped charge" bullets right now?

Grav tech... it's effects don't have to be limited to recoil absorption. But because it doesn't come in until later, will it really be a factor in slug thrower development?

Guided munitions -- the notion of laser-guided piezoelectric bullets kinda blew my mind. Where does that take the game? And guided munitions plug into advances in battlefield electronics, computers in small arms and what they do viz sighting, target designation etc.
 
Currently, shotgun rounds (4" Magnum .12ga) have a variety of ammunitions.

Slug: both subcaliber discarding sabot and full caliber lead.
AP Slug: APDS and APDSFS, as well as HEAP
Shot: in a variety of submunition sizes
Flechette: in a variety of types and sizes
Grenade: 18x24mm HE, CS, CN, and Flash-bang
Flare: variety of colors. Including direct and parachute; direct flare can be used for incidiary slug


We're almost to the point of being able to put laser guidance on many of them.
Further, it's been shown plausible (but not gone to manufacture that I've read of, yet) to use a 4" .12ga to launch small rocket munitions; they are not practical, however.

In the 1960's, most of these munitions types were restricted to 40mm.
 
In the 1960's, most of these munitions types were restricted to 40mm.

And there isn't a whole lot of difference between a break action 40mm GL and a break action double barrel 18mm weapon. Mechanically they are near identical (some differences in firing pin/action). Stock and barrel are the same, though the barrel tends to be shorter on the GL.

Of course, if you are just talking about "shotguns" rather then specifically 12 gauge, then there is no reason not to use a 10 gauge (20mm) 4 gauge (25mm) or even a 1 gauge (42mm).

The really big advantage of break action (and linear shells) is there is no chamber restriction. I don't know if it was a typo, but I'm now thinking of samuelvss's 15 inch shotgun shell. Damn that sounds wrong.
 
Just an info bit...

...The Israelis have a "corner gun" today...

The bendy pistol one? (just the first link that came up) Seen it, kind of cool but I'm sure there's gonna be issues (my video battery is dead).

The Germans had a "corner gun" in WW2. Well, an adapter to fire an assault rifle around corners. The Krummlauf Vorsatz J was an adapter with a mirror and 30 deg curved barrel extension. It reduced the velocity of the round but was functional for the role. I think I'd pick it over the Cornershot :)
 
I don't know if it was a typo, but I'm now thinking of samuelvss's 15 inch shotgun shell. Damn that sounds wrong.

No typo. It would have to be either breach loaded into a break-open, or muzzle loaded into another. Couldn't feed; definately special purpose. But it would be the ultimate tool for assymetrical warfare if practical. Also, the value of a high Law Level weapon with some military relevance (I said some, mind you) is not to be overlooked. You make the shotgun into a poor man's RPG with a 50m range. Would it work at TL 12-13? Qui sait.

The german also have a small caliber insert (Einschtucklaut [sp???]) for a 12 guage. I'm sure the TL 11+ equivalent could turn a shotgun into a high-powered rifle.

As aramis says, there is much out there already. We as GM's need to package it for use in various fora.

The interplay of TL, LL and imagination is fertile soil.

I know there was a 4cm TL7 anti-helicopter rotor round the USAF used ( basically a big bolo using light steel cable).

Tranq is already in the Consolidated equipment list for GL's and shotguns.

What about nets? Can't be big, but adhesives etc could be used to foul a single sophants arms or legs.

What else? Line throwers, trackers, signalling devices.

At what TL can a 4cm RAM become a mini satelite?
 
Lost Weapon

Perhaps I've overlooked such being listed but has there been any mention in any Traveller publications regarding gyro-jet firearms ?
 
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