TL 10+ slug throwers

[Renaissance Man]

So, I've been thinking...

What's changed about slug throwers as the TL's go up and up? What is the propellant used? Are the rounds caseless? Do they start delivering payload? What material are the rounds? Are there new technologies that compensate for recoil? Targeting? Barrel cooling and rate of fire?

The campaign I'm thinking of doing is set basically in Milieu 0 (actually I'm thinking more in around the Pacification Campaigns.) So the Imperium is mostly around the TL 10-12 and by far the most efficient means of delivering kinetic force in war remains momentum and shearing force. But a lot can change over 4 or 5 tech levels...

Anybody have any ideas?

 

[atpollard]

So, I've been thinking...

What's changed about slug throwers as the TL's go up and up? What is the propellant used? Are the rounds caseless? Do they start delivering payload? What material are the rounds? Are there new technologies that compensate for recoil? Targeting? Barrel cooling and rate of fire?

The campaign I'm thinking of doing is set basically in Milieu 0 (actually I'm thinking more in around the Pacification Campaigns.) So the Imperium is mostly around the TL 10-12 and by far the most efficient means of delivering kinetic force in war remains momentum and shearing force. But a lot can change over 4 or 5 tech levels...

Anybody have any ideas?

Start with warheads for cannon (like WW2 battleship guns).
Fast Forward a few TLs and they are reduced to Grenade/Mortar size.
Fast Forward a few more TLs and they are reduced to Shotgun Shell size.
Fast Forward a few more TLs and they are reduced to Rifle/pistol size.

Start with warheads for cannon (like WW2 battleship guns).
Fast Forward a few TLs and they self propelled (missiles).
Fast Forward a few more TLs and they are reduced to RPG size.
Fast Forward a few more TLs and they are reduced to Shotgun Shell sized Gyroc ammunition.
Fast Forward a few more TLs and they are reduced to Rifle/pistol sized Gyroc ammunition.

Just keep reducing missile seeking tech in size every couple TLs.
Solid Ammunition gives way to HE contact detonation unguided ammo.
HE contact detonation unguided ammo gives way to unguided proximity detonators or IR guided contact detonators.
Unguided proximity detonators and IR guided contact detonators give way to smarter munitions.

Perhaps a TL 7 guided missile becomes a TL 9 guided RPG and a TL 11 guided shotgun Gyroc and a TL 13 guided rifle/pistol Gyroc.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Caseless, hell.

Well, lets just say I know of a certain type of BP ammo that's Issue to Certain Imperial Persons that the shell of the round is made of special hydropolycarbon long chain polymer or some Q substance that uses the shell as the charge igniter for the primary acceleratant (sp?) and thus all the shell is consumed and leaves no trace and is in fact extremely hard to detect and most detectors that could would know what it was and give a pass or assistance. *grins*

The rest all is hyper-materials, memory plastics and such.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Well, lets just say I know of a certain type of BP ammo that's Issue to Certain Imperial Persons that the shell of the round is made of special hydropolycarbon long chain polymer or some Q substance that uses the shell as the charge igniter for the primary acceleratant (sp?) and thus all the shell is consumed and leaves no trace and is in fact extremely hard to detect and most detectors that could would know what it was and give a pass or assistance. *grins*

The rest all is hyper-materials, memory plastics and such.

:rofl:

What can I say... I read too many science magazines as a kid, too much star trek. I can't help but geek out about this stuff.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

:rofl:

What can I say... I read too many science magazines as a kid, too much star trek. I can't help but geek out about this stuff.

Glad to have made you laugh!

Me too BTW.

 

[claidheamh]

Modern

So, I've been thinking...

What's changed about slug throwers as the TL's go up and up? What is the propellant used? Are the rounds caseless? Do they start delivering payload? What material are the rounds? Are there new technologies that compensate for recoil? Targeting? Barrel cooling and rate of fire?

The campaign I'm thinking of doing is set basically in Milieu 0 (actually I'm thinking more in around the Pacification Campaigns.) So the Imperium is mostly around the TL 10-12 and by far the most efficient means of delivering kinetic force in war remains momentum and shearing force. But a lot can change over 4 or 5 tech levels...

Anybody have any ideas?

I always liked the 2300 AD assault rifles that were binary propellant based (ie, magazine loads a bullet, squirts in propellant and oxidizer, ignites) - one theory was this it was easier to keep clean, no ejection port to watch, and better ammunition density in the magazine.

For real world, recent developments (that are cracking the TL 9, TL 10 lines
in the way I think about them), I'd look at all of the theoretical work put into the G11 by Heckler & Koch or any of the other new weapon systems that H&K has been developing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch
Interesting quote about recoil management from the G11 page:

"The recoil in the three-round burst is not felt by the weapon's user until after the third round has left the chamber. This is accomplished by having the barrel and feeding mechanism "float" within the rifle casing. When the bullets are fired, the barrel and mechanism recoils back freely several inches and only when it hits the plate at the back of the rifle does the user feel the recoil."​

Searches on the US Army's "OICW" program should give good ideas on at least the first generation of the ACR that might be used in the Traveller Universe. Personally, I'm thinking about adding a "system" like the XM-8 into my upcoming game - a modular system that can make a rifle, LMG, carbine or machine pistol out of one base weapon (with a bunch of parts).
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/xm8-poster.jpg

For a really revolutionary idea about firearms, take a look at "MetalStorm" - imagine a rifle barrel pre-loaded with bullets stacked sequentially and fired electronically. It's supposed to provide insanely high rates of fire (with a long reload after emptying the barrel).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalstorm

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Fear!

.....
For a really revolutionary idea about firearms, take a look at "MetalStorm" - imagine a rifle barrel pre-loaded with bullets stacked sequentially and fired electronically. It's supposed to provide insanely high rates of fire (with a long reload after emptying the barrel).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalstorm

They took the sound portion out of the video last time I was there, but wow! I remember the sound and if I am still alive, its "Buttons are too high!" *there is no emoticon for "...diving for cover and Thanking The Lord"*

Oh wait, that isn't the right link...*looks in bookmarks in head and comes up with this* MetalStorm,the most frightening weapon to roll of the APR&D lines!

 

[far-trader]

...Interesting quote about recoil management from the G11 page:

"The recoil in the three-round burst is not felt by the weapon's user until after the third round has left the chamber. This is accomplished by having the barrel and feeding mechanism "float" within the rifle casing. When the bullets are fired, the barrel and mechanism recoils back freely several inches and only when it hits the plate at the back of the rifle does the user feel the recoil."​

Pretty old tech actually. I first read that probably 20 years ago or more

I seem to recall it also had something to do with the rapid feed and fire rate enabled by being caseless.

So yes, that initial burst is all going to land in the same spot which is good, but the recoil is still there to mess up following shots.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Getem FT!

And as I recall, can't give citation, so...it has some mech problems...

And I caught it from reading and getting trade mags....nice ones, International Combat Arms was a real good one.

 

[far-trader]

And as I recall, can't give citation, so...it has some mech problems...

And I caught it from reading and getting trade mags....nice ones, International Combat Arms was a real good one.

Yeah, there was some mech problem istr too, can't recall what it was, enough that it never really took off.



I used to be up on gun tech back in the day too. Some trade mags, annuals, and such. Low level hobbiest interest, the gov here wouldn't let me have most of the stuff that looked interesting. Largely it was to feed the rpg imagination for arms and such.

 

[mike wightman]

Typical TL 10 slug thrower IMTU:

caseless ammo for high capacity mag

recoil compensation

simple electronic sight (magnification, rangefinder, target lead)

slug, AP, HE, gas, tranq ammo all available

 

[Renaissance Man]

I was thinking about propellant...

Someone here said that Superdense is problematic because it contains a tremendous amount of energy and would go BOOM without being contained an intense native gravity field.

Conclusion -- stable SD had to be handwaved.

I invented some jibber-jabber about "particle spin correction" to magically stablize superdense matter, returning it to it's rightful place as the high-tech structural material of the future. I don't know anybody up enough on their physics to poke a hole in it, and meanwhile there's additional flavour and background to a substance that is ubiquitous in the TU.

But if you didn't do anything to stabilize the super-dense matter, or made it conditionally stable based on some catalyst, then you'd have an extremely efficient explosive on your hands.

Thus the propellant for TL12+ slug throwers could be a minute amount of partially stable-superdense. In fact, all explosives, grenades and the like could be based on the unstable superdense model, giving them all a very sci-fi edge while retaining their retro appeal.

 

[far-trader]

I was thinking about propellant...

Hmm, sounds like the boom part of TDX. The package includes the gravitic spin twister and when that gets turned (off, on, opposite, or whatever) the package goes BIG boom in a slice parallel to the local gravity field.

I like it. Might need more jargony and less handwavium, but it's a start.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Well now.

Hmm, sounds like the boom part of TDX. The package includes the gravitic spin twister and when that gets turned (off, on, opposite, or whatever) the package goes BIG boom in a slice parallel to the local gravity field.

I like it. Might need more jargony and less handwavium, but it's a start.

Wow, nasty propellant! Lots of neat low exposure hard rads for everyone.

"It's like getting an Z-ray, perfectly safe."
"Yeah, like thirty of 'em real quick."

 

[Thunderbolt]

In Striker, it seems to imply that while Superdense is the result of a once off process, Bonded Superdense requires continual application of power.

I can imagine shells made from Superdense would be the DU of the future.

anybody up enough on their physics to poke a hole in it,

A bit of hand wave that I use in my stories is based around a real life phenomena called Lanthanide Contraction. This is a shielding effect caused by the electrons which falls off as the attraction of the nucleus grows. This causes elements subject to the effect to be denser (examples being Osmium, Iridium etc...)

 

[Pagan priest]

Yeah, there was some mech problem istr too, can't recall what it was, enough that it never really took off.



I used to be up on gun tech back in the day too. Some trade mags, annuals, and such. Low level hobbiest interest, the gov here wouldn't let me have most of the stuff that looked interesting. Largely it was to feed the rpg imagination for arms and such.

Hmm, big "if" here, but if I recall correctly, the caseless ammo had a stability problem. It would oxidize when exposed to air, and it also had a problem with bits & pieces flaking off, which would set you up for a jam, or worse, ammo cook-off.

 

[aramis]

I remember reading the same issues, PP.

Which is why, for caseless, I prefer binary rounds: bullets in a traditional magazine, propellant is a liquid.

 

[atpollard]

I was under the impression that the G11 resolved all of the problems with caseless ammo (except for two) and was ready for large scale production and deployment in Germany and the US.

The two remaining 'obstacles' are

1. Compatibility - It requires a massive investment in expensive ammo that is not compatible with any of the numerous weapons already availabe worldwide and in large numbers.

2. Politics - Germany needed the money for rebuilding after reunification and the US rigged the test for a replacement weapon in favor of the existing M-16 (the replacement has to be 100% better than the M-16).

 

[Eisenmann]

To be honest, I don't think that slug throwers would change much other than material science's impacts on what the guns are actually made of.

They're already incredibly reliable. Why complicate them with all kinds of electronics?

Propellants will be a place where improvement can be made. Increased consistency with reduced fouling is where it's at.

Caseless ammo isn't something that I'd want to rely on if I'm traipsing across the great voids of space to planets of questionable safety.

I want to keep the possibility of reloading my empty brass.

Also, caseless ammunition has the propellant exposed to the elements and abuse. And I sure as heck don't want to rely on a battery to ignite the "cartridge" when I pull the trigger.

 

[Vile]

To be honest, I don't think that slug throwers would change much other than material science's impacts on what the guns are actually made of.

Personally, I think one other advance would have to be in the field of recoil reduction. Don't ask me how, I'm only TL-6.

They're already incredibly reliable. Why complicate them with all kinds of electronics?

Why, indeed? But that's never stopped the car industry ... :devil: