The UnTraveller

[Jame]

To change Traveller I would change the computers slightly. Either use GURPS's computer rules or use MGP's rules. Don't need to change much, just the availability, TL and prices of some programs, but it can be done.

 

[aramis]

And before you say that CT doesn´t have classes or levels, I´d argue that the various careers are classes of a sort, and terms are levels - they just have A LOT less direct influence on characters than they do in d20 for example. T20, which does have explicit classes and levels, is still a lot more skill-based than d20 tends to be, because T20 is deadlier and at the same time less focused on combat than d20.

I've made the same argument many times.

 

[aramis]

To me, Traveller isn't defined by it's rules (those change).

It's defined by Grandfather, and the history and sociology of Traveller that makes it awesome. It is the Milieu, and nothing else.

Unfortunately for you, MWM obviously disagrees somewhat, having plans for multiple millieux of the OTU, and having permitted Mongoose to have their way with Traveller ports of other settings.

Mongoose Publishing explicitly (and at times rather vehemently) disagrees with your view.

Then again, from my perspective, GT and HT both are missing one of the fundamental Travellerisms: life-path/career based CGen.

 

[captainjack]

I'd argue that a NTU using core Traveller rules would be clearly Traveller, such as the Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog, rather than being gray area.

That took me by surprise -I forgot about those, and will add in hammers slammers.

It's interesting, I did some of the playtesting for JDredd, and one of my comments (explicitly not a complaint) was that even though it played like traveller (for chargen,rules,combat,design etc at least) it didn't feel like traveller. Possibly it was the very strong 2000AD setting swamping the traveller feel (I'm quite a Megacity maven, too..), but when I thought about it, it was more the fact that one is playing larger than life characters -even common street judges are an elite -much more so than a typical traveller character.

Now strontium dog, on the other hand, does seem more Travellerish -one is still playing a more elite character, a very different universe, and a flat out science fantasy setting, but somehow the travellerish tropes show thru. I note in passing that Strontium dog is explicitly lifted from the immediate post civil war american west, as, it seems, is the other big travellerish thingie, Firefly. Possibly it's the working on the outskirts of the law and civilization that echos traveller tropes ?


Hammers slammers plays out like an old style Book 4 (Mercenary) campaign plain and simple, as flourished in the late seventies. The tech is different, and the universe is different, but by god, the GDW wargaming sensibility of Merc+striker is right there. Hardly surprising, tho, since I'm pretty sure that book four was designed to emulate the Drake/Pournelle Hard military SF of that period.

 

[BillDowns]

Obviously nobody's going to agree on this, but it can be fun discussing it - until somebody throws a wobbler and the thread gets closed.
Let's face it, RPGs don't really 'matter', we do it because it's fun.

I think the defining trait is that the rules have to be Traveller-based or at least Traveller-compatible, though the setting can be a strong influence.

Clearly, the OTU doesn't define Traveller, since there are so many ATUs out there, and the game itself began without the OTU. However, setting your game within the OTU probably makes it Traveller no matter what rules you use - within reason.

I would argue that if you put superheroes or magic in the OTU it's no longer the OTU and hence no longer Traveller (unless, of course, the super powers and magic are derived from drugs and psionics). The OTU itself is defined by the rules that created it.

I don't think space Travel is essential in a Traveller game. I'm running a dirtside post-apocalypse game in which there is no space travel, but it uses MgT rules. They are heavily houseruled, so I have no OTU, no space travel and lots of houserules, but I would argue that it's still Traveller.

However, if you import another setting, such as Judge Dredd or Barsoom, then I would be less likely to feel that it was Traveller, even if it used the Traveller rules.

So,
OTU with Traveller rules = Traveller
OTU with compatible (Travelleresque) rules = Traveller
OTU with incompatible rules = Non Traveller

ATU with Traveller rules = Traveller
ATU with Travelleresque rules = grey area
ATU with incompatible rules = Non Traveller

NTU with Traveller Rules = grey area
NTU with Travelleresque rules = Non Traveller
NTU with incompatible rules = Non Traveller

*OTU = the original GDW universe derived from the Traveller rules
*ATU = Alternative, custom universe derived from the Traveller rules.
*NTU = non-Traveller, proprietary universe.

Of course, the next question is how much houseruling can you do before your rules cross the line from 'Traveller' to 'Travelleresque'...?

Yeah - this is it for me....including the "next question"

 

[aramis]

Well, Billy & Icosahedron, My personal borderline on "travelleresque" vs traveller is preety gray... but here's a list of stuff that immediately moves it OUT of even Travelleresque:

• FTL Radios
• No social standing stat
• No potential for a 1-shot drop with a .22 pistol
• No potential to be standing after a hit from a 7.62mm autorifle burst
• Anything even resembling Vancian Magic
• gray ubertech goo
• halfbreed aliens
• efficient fusion

 

[Icosahedron]

I'd argue that a NTU using core Traveller rules would be clearly Traveller, such as the Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog, rather than being gray area.

I found, myself, that running Trek using CT/HG2 felt more Traveller than Trek... and found it a bit unsatisfying. The Traveller rules produce certain clear paradigm effects...

But there's always that question - am I playing Traveller or am I playing Trek/Dredd/Dog. Hence the grey area. With an ATU, Stealth's comment notwithstanding, there's no question, IMO.

To me, Traveller isn't defined by it's rules (those change).

It's defined by Grandfather, and the history and sociology of Traveller that makes it awesome. It is the Milieu, and nothing else.

So you're saying that my ATU, designed before the OTU was published, and built from the original 1977 Traveller rules that gave Traveller its name, is not Traveller because it doesn't include an alien called Grandfather, an emperor called Strephon and a breed of anthropomorphic dogs called Vargr?

 

[Icosahedron]

Well, Billy & Icosahedron, My personal borderline on "travelleresque" vs traveller is preety gray... but here's a list of stuff that immediately moves it OUT of even Travelleresque:

Yes, I think there are some things it's ok to meddle with, and some things that seem to 'Travellerise' rules. I think they have to remain fairly 'hard', if space travel plays a part in the game it must be via a 1 weekish jump of a few parsecs, combat must be gritty and use a predominance of kinetic projectiles, time travel is out (except maybe the odd causality-independent glitches due to misjump), FTL communications are out, magic is a no-no, hyper-tech (personal force fields, etc) is out, nanotech is muted, and the situations faced by the PCs are 'ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances'. These are the things that define Traveller for me (there may be more). They are independent of the TU and they are independent of the rules edition, yet they form the essence of Traveller.

Trek's 'sub-space radio', hyper-tech phasers and Transporters, and its galaxy-spanning Warp Drive stretches it as a Traveller milieu for me.

 

[mike wightman]

No magic eh?

So psionics are out of the window?

 

[rancke]

No magic eh?

So psionics are out of the window?

No.


Hans

 

[kafka47]

I agree Jump provides the boundary for Traveller - however, in MTU and the OTU we do accept there are things beyond Jump Drive and things that go on before it ie Wanderer.

My criticisms of Steampunk were not quite perceived the right way. 1889 and steampunk with its either drive and life on Mars is not Traveller because it is bad science. The style or background appropriately updated otherwise Hornblower in Space can be Traveller. But, you are not going to have liftwood ships but antigrav - might amount to the same thing but I would not want to see bad science in there. That is why elements of Eclipse Phase may work in Traveller and others will not. I have always wanted Traveller to be more than Shotguns in Space but at the same time it is just the fact that we are going to be using slug throwers for a very long time. So, I venture that Traveller is a Hard Space Opera - so I really want a game to call Traveller - a game that gets the science right (including the social science) and then leaves it to the Referee to keep the coherent story.

 

[Chaos]

Speaking getting the science right...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness

Traveller has two "big lies" - Jump and gravitics. Well, let´s say 2.5 big lies, because psionics is not such a central part for Traveller (for the OTU, arguably, but not Traveller itself).

 

[aramis]

No magic eh?

So psionics are out of the window?

No Vancian magic... D&D uses pseudo-vancian magic, and vancian style prep, then release with a word and wiggle later just blows the feel out of the water.

Now, my last ATU game, I altered ship construction a little (in the drives area), and my next ATU game will go further (changing the fuel rates further still, and using CT Bk5 drive rates with an otherwise MGT design sequence, and CT Bk2 style drive damage ripped from T20PT MS15 or so...

Will it still be traveller?
Jump Drive... check.
wastefully low efficiency PP? yes. I think it will be 0.001PN, so less wastefully low, but still
JFuel: MT rate (5xJD vol for 1J)
CGen: MGT or MT, possibly modded.
3I: nowhere to be found
Aliens: may have vargr, leoni (aslan who are actually uplifted lions), Ursa, Chimps, Orangs, dolphins; maybe droyne, virush, newts...

 

[Chaos]

Well, Billy & Icosahedron, My personal borderline on "travelleresque" vs traveller is preety gray... but here's a list of stuff that immediately moves it OUT of even Travelleresque:

• FTL Radios
• No social standing stat
• No potential for a 1-shot drop with a .22 pistol
• No potential to be standing after a hit from a 7.62mm autorifle burst
• Anything even resembling Vancian Magic
• gray ubertech goo
• halfbreed aliens
• efficient fusion

I´d replace "gray ubertech goo" with "post-scarcity technology", i.e. technology that makes the availability of items or materials irrelevant, such as Star Trek´s replicators.

 

[Icosahedron]

No magic eh?

So psionics are out of the window?

Depends on your definition of magic. Limited psionics is an accepted pseudo-scientific Traveller trope, being one step beyond hypnosis, but no amount of psionics is going to turn water into wine or conjure up a demon from the 'Astral Plane'.

Though theoretically, you might convince your victim telepathically that you have done either of those things...

 

[mike wightman]

You are forgetting the special talent

Summoning a demon could be explained by being able to unlock an ancient pocket universe to summon a warbot for a limited time.

Transmutation of water into alcohol could be allowed too - chemically it's just joining a couple of methane molecules to a water molecule, which is nowhere near as game breaking as teleporting commandos.

Immagine a special talent that allows you to teleport others instead of yourself.

Which reminds me - the special talent often requires a focus to be able to work - very magical

 

[Icosahedron]

Personally, I try to avoid psionics, but it is unquestionably Traveller. Magic (Clarke notwithstanding) is not. Draw the line where you wish.