The ultimate weapon

[Dragoner]

This started as an exercise in countering a terrorist attack: a lone Ine Givar extremist smacking a scout into Regina at a humble 0.01c in an effort to strike back for the defeat of his organization on Efate. That's mushroomed into a very enjoyable - and occasionally a bit heated - discussion about near-c kinetic kill vehicles and whether the properties of space would permit such objects, to which the answer seems to be a solid, "insufficient data."

Dagger at Efate has such an incident of a Broadsword being used in such a way as to collide with a planet.

However, logical inference would say that insufficient data coupled with the facts that ships do not travel at near c, nor are these weapons used in the OTU, is that there is some limiting factor as to why.

 

[Omnivore]

I agree Carlobrand, I'm glad you started this thread

To me, there is an overlap between the sensor satellite thread (got into detecting Kuiper belt/Oort cloud refueling operations), small ship universes (what to do with the excess military budget), jump flash detection, and defense against the threats brought up in this thread.

A GM could create an interesting bit of background detail addressing these issues and it would have an impact on players if only by its impact on piracy.

 

[mike wightman]

However, logical inference would say that insufficient data coupled with the facts that ships do not travel at near c, nor are these weapons used in the OTU, is that there is some limiting factor as to why.

Ships do not normally travel at near c speeds.

But they are more than capable of achieving such velocities and canon gives us examples of when near c travel was much more common - namely the Interstellar Wars through to Dark Nebula era and the stl ships that colonised the Hinterworlds sector and Islands sub sectors.

Now we are definitely going in circles...

 

[Blue Ghost]

Carlobrand;

I think it's an interesting exercise, but it's all dependent on the jump exit velocity of the vehicle. Even if it had enough pure speed, it would need the right course, and almost assuredly need to correct its course. Exiting jump with the right speed and course would he an incredible feat of astronautics.

And that's regardless whether the vehicle is detectable or not, the physics and engineering of which Aramis and I debated. Ultimately we both agreed that the physics of detection determined what defense could be mustered. But again, it depends on the setup of the scenario. Lots of handwavium here, but intriguing all the same.

 

[Carlobrand]

Dagger at Efate has such an incident of a Broadsword being used in such a way as to collide with a planet.

However, logical inference would say that insufficient data coupled with the facts that ships do not travel at near c, nor are these weapons used in the OTU, is that there is some limiting factor as to why.

I love Niven, one of my favorite writers. I recall a dilemma Niven presented - well, more like mentioned in passing while on another subject. In his universe, humanity initially settled the stars in ram-scoop ships flying star-to-star at near-c velocities. Later, the advent of hyper-c drives allowed man to traverse interstellar distances in days rather than years. However, the two could not easily interact.

A ram-ship harvested the free fuel floating in space to reach terrific - but sublight - speeds. A hyper-c ship exited the Einsteinian universe to do its bit; when it returned, it returned with its former ant-speed momentum. It never went to near-c speeds because it never needed to - the hyper-c drive got it where it needed to go, the sublight drives got it the rest of the way. Finding a way to rescue the crew of a ram-ship using a hyper-c ship was a real challenge; it involved first finding a way to accelerate the hyper-c ship to the ram's speed, then using the hyper-c drive to get out there, rescue the crew and return, then finding a way to slow it down afterward.

I meander a bit. Point is, ships in Traveller do not travel at near-c for a simple reason: they've never needed to. My scout's 0.01c and a bit more seems possible, implied in the oldest canon material: a Book-2 chart showing a 2g ship taking 117.9 hours to do a thrust out 900 million miles to a far gas giant. My own research suggests there might be some dangers, but nothing devastating - provided of course there's someone on hand to rescue you if an unlucky roll takes out your power plant. Beyond that is uncharted territory - here there be dragons. There are a few mentions of races going interstellar by sub-c methods, but no details. Other than that, throughout canon - and be cautioned that I've laid eyes on less than half the canon material out there and probably remember only half of what I've laid eyes on - ships simply use their drives to get where they're going: from jump point to planet, from planet to jump point, sometimes to a gas giant or some interesting anomaly.

Thus, to infer a limiting factor because it hasn't been done - well, maybe, but then again maybe not. Other than maybe the slowboat colonies (and it's not clear how fast they went), there's no mention that anyone's actually tried. Best rule of thumb remains: whatever works for you.

 

[rancke]

But they are more than capable of achieving such velocities and canon gives us examples of when near c travel was much more common - namely the Interstellar Wars through to Dark Nebula era and the stl ships that colonised the Hinterworlds sector and Islands sub sectors.

What do you consider to be near C? What are the speeds canonically achieved by these various sublight colony ships?


Hans

 

[rancke]

But they are more than capable of achieving such velocities and canon gives us examples of when near c travel was much more common - namely the Interstellar Wars through to Dark Nebula era and the stl ships that colonised the Hinterworlds sector and Islands sub sectors.

What do you consider to be near C? What are the speeds canonically achieved by these various sublight colony ships?

And can someone tell me what velocity a ship achieves by accelerating at 6G for 3½ days?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

What do you consider to be near C? What are the speeds canonically achieved by these various sublight colony ships?

And can someone tell me what velocity a ship achieves by accelerating at 6G for 3½ days?


Hans

I'm getting a bit over 18 thousand KPS - 0.06c.

I got nothing on Dark Nebula. Does anyone know if canon mentioned travel times for those little treks?

 

[BytePro]

Hans - Google 'search' can do a lot of calculations for you...

(60 m/s^2 * 60 * 60 s/hr * 24 hr/day * 3.5 day) / speed of light =

In the search will result in:

((60 (m / (s^2))) * 60 * (60 (s / hr)) * (24 (hr / day)) * (3.5 day)) / the speed of light = 0.0605218694

Which agrees with Carlobrand (whose answer was even easier than Googling, but for those times he's not around... ).

 

[Carlobrand]

Carlobrand;

I think it's an interesting exercise, but it's all dependent on the jump exit velocity of the vehicle. Even if it had enough pure speed, it would need the right course, and almost assuredly need to correct its course. Exiting jump with the right speed and course would he an incredible feat of astronautics.

And that's regardless whether the vehicle is detectable or not, the physics and engineering of which Aramis and I debated. Ultimately we both agreed that the physics of detection determined what defense could be mustered. But again, it depends on the setup of the scenario. Lots of handwavium here, but intriguing all the same.

Actually, my bit was all normal-space. I'm not entirely confident one can jump with enough accuracy to pull this off. And my final on it was that, though it was doable in normal space,the planet would pick him up on passive EMS way, way out - MegaTrav gives us "interstellar" range passive EMS at TL-10, which is a bit ridiculous but there it is, and we're talking about game mechanics after all. They might not have been able to pinpoint him, they probably couldn't have said more than that it's a blue-shifted and accelerating man-made heat source somewhere "out there" very far away, but they certainly would have known a man-made object was headed their way at a dangerous speed, and they'd have had ample time to work out an intercept solution and disable and divert him far enough off to avert danger.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Which was kind of my argument, and why I thought it was a non-issue at best.

 

[77topaz]

Dagger at Efate has such an incident of a Broadsword being used in such a way as to collide with a planet.

However, logical inference would say that insufficient data coupled with the facts that ships do not travel at near c, nor are these weapons used in the OTU, is that there is some limiting factor as to why.

That's what the post refers to.

 

[mike wightman]

What do you consider to be near C? What are the speeds canonically achieved by these various sublight colony ships?


Hans

Imperium and Dark Nebula give a movement across empty hexes velocity of 0.8 to 0.9c.

The colony ships achieved 0.6c IIRC.

 

[McPerth]

Dagger at Efate has such an incident of a Broadsword being used in such a way as to collide with a planet.

Dagger of Efate is not intended to make a near C ship to collide, but to make a ship to be used as Kamikaze (with a thermonuclear weapon on it) against a troop concentration, not intending to damage the whole planet (aside from fallout than might be), but as a minimally precise weapon for an specific target.

The near C weapon will be a true MDW, intended to damage the whole planet with (at least) a dinosaur killer meteorite like effects.

I think it's an interesting exercise, but it's all dependent on the jump exit velocity of the vehicle. Even if it had enough pure speed, it would need the right course, and almost assuredly need to correct its course. Exiting jump with the right speed and course would he an incredible feat of astronautics.

As it was said before (sorry to walk in circles again), the main problem from having such a weapon exiting jump already at high speed to deny the defenders time to react is the uncertain time it will spend in jump. If it goes out of jumpspace just 10 minutes late (or early), its target will be (assuming a translation speed like Earth's) about 18000 km out of where you expected it, and at this speed neither you will have time to react and correct your course on time. And 10 min of error is an incredible accurate jump, the error will more likely be counted in hours.

 

[Carlobrand]

Imperium and Dark Nebula give a movement across empty hexes velocity of 0.8 to 0.9c.

The colony ships achieved 0.6c IIRC.

Dark Nebula? The board game? I know that deals with Solomani and Aslan, but that has some odd mechanics:

"Hyperspace jumps involve movement directly between stellar hexes at faster·
than·light speeds. Such jumps are possible only along jump routes printed on the maps; each jump route is a green line connecting two stellar hexes."

"Tankers are capable of manufacturing fuel directly from stellar atmospheres."

The game also allows hyperspace-capable starships to spend two years per half-parsec hex sublighting it from place to place, with many of these places 3 to 5 hexes apart.

Is that source considered canon for Traveller purposes?

 

[aramis]

Dark Nebula? The board game? I know that deals with Solomani and Aslan, but that has some odd mechanics:

"Hyperspace jumps involve movement directly between stellar hexes at faster·
than·light speeds. Such jumps are possible only along jump routes printed on the maps; each jump route is a green line connecting two stellar hexes."

"Tankers are capable of manufacturing fuel directly from stellar atmospheres."

The game also allows hyperspace-capable starships to spend two years per half-parsec hex sublighting it from place to place, with many of these places 3 to 5 hexes apart.

Is that source considered canon for Traveller purposes?

It's on the CT CD... so, yes, yes it is.

 

[77topaz]

Dark Nebula? The board game? I know that deals with Solomani and Aslan, but that has some odd mechanics:

"Hyperspace jumps involve movement directly between stellar hexes at faster·
than·light speeds. Such jumps are possible only along jump routes printed on the maps; each jump route is a green line connecting two stellar hexes."

"Tankers are capable of manufacturing fuel directly from stellar atmospheres."

The game also allows hyperspace-capable starships to spend two years per half-parsec hex sublighting it from place to place, with many of these places 3 to 5 hexes apart.

Is that source considered canon for Traveller purposes?

Those oddities are just part of the board game.

 

[mike wightman]

They are part of the rich background canon of CT and the OTU.

The rules for Imperium and Dark nebula are pretty much the same, and are both considered historical eras of the OTU.

And as Aramis says - they are both on the CT cd

 

[Dragoner]

Ships do not normally travel at near c speeds.

But they are more than capable of achieving such velocities and canon gives us examples of when near c travel was much more common - namely the Interstellar Wars through to Dark Nebula era and the stl ships that colonised the Hinterworlds sector and Islands sub sectors.

Now we are definitely going in circles...

Design path would be different, so that isn't exactly relevant.

 

[Dragoner]

Dagger of Efate is not intended to make a near C ship to collide, but to make a ship to be used as Kamikaze (with a thermonuclear weapon on it) against a troop concentration, not intending to damage the whole planet (aside from fallout than might be), but as a minimally precise weapon for an specific target.

The near C weapon will be a true MDW, intended to damage the whole planet with (at least) a dinosaur killer meteorite like effects.



As it was said before (sorry to walk in circles again), the main problem from having such a weapon exiting jump already at high speed to deny the defenders time to react is the uncertain time it will spend in jump. If it goes out of jumpspace just 10 minutes late (or early), its target will be (assuming a translation speed like Earth's) about 18000 km out of where you expected it, and at this speed neither you will have time to react and correct your course on time. And 10 min of error is an incredible accurate jump, the error will more likely be counted in hours.

Yes, just reread it.

SO... any example of near c objects hitting planets?