LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Any FFW enthusiasts crazy enough to want to talk about modeling The Rebellion?
The Rebellion
- Thread starter LeperColony
- Start date
Do you mean The Rebellion from Star Wars?
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
No, I mean The Rebellion from MegaTraveller.
Sorry, there was a boardgame recently released called Rebellion.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
No worries. I've heard good things about that game, been meaning to try it.
IMHO, trying to play the Rebellion with FFW rules would be like trying to play the Battle of England or the US bombing campaign over Germany in WWII with AH Air Force rules...
You might find this thread interesting about playing it. There I told about an idea for it I had many years ago...
You might find this thread interesting about playing it. There I told about an idea for it I had many years ago...
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
When I was in college I modeled a rough outline of a Rebellion scale game. It used a strategic movement component and a point-to-point movement system that reduced subsectors to a few spots and units to a fleet scale.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Yeah, I think any attempt to model The Rebellion with anything like FFW's detail would either have to:
1) Enlarge the scale (probably subsector/fleet)
2) Abstract a lot of mechanics like SDBs and maybe even ground forces as a whole
3) Use a variable scale, with both a strategic component for moving whole fleets and a "zoom in" tactical scale for operations similar to FFW. This would only really be feasible with a computer program.
1) Enlarge the scale (probably subsector/fleet)
2) Abstract a lot of mechanics like SDBs and maybe even ground forces as a whole
3) Use a variable scale, with both a strategic component for moving whole fleets and a "zoom in" tactical scale for operations similar to FFW. This would only really be feasible with a computer program.
Unless you're keen on creating the sci-fi version of The Campaign for North Africa you're not going to model The Rebellion with anything that remotely resembles FFW.
Even that scale isn't big enough. Discounting the Marches, Deneb, and Corridor you're looking a region of ~20 sectors and parts of sectors at 16 subsectors apiece. What's more, all of those subsectors are not even remotely equal on a economic, military, or political basis.
Fleets, because there is a frontline and reserve fleet per subsector, have the same problem.
You're going to being using regions; groupings that represent single important subsectors or a variable number of less important subsectors.
SDBs and ground forces are going to be abstracted to such a point that they won't even be mentioned outside of the rules; i.e. A region's defense rating includes such factors as SDBs, ground forces, .....
Variable scales work rather poorly in FTF wargaming because they usually lack a "focus" for actual play. By trying to develop a game that covers strategic, operational, and tactical play equally well, you often end up not developing any of those scales well enough.
For example, Avalanche Press' various releases in the Great War at Sea series work because the strategic system is used to create tactical battles. GDW's versions of Imperium work because, while there is a ground combat subsystem, the focus of the game is the strategic movement of and combat between ships. Conversely, AP's version of Imperium failed because it tried to place equal focus on strategic ship movement, tactical ship combat, and ground campaigns.
The Kingmaker suggestion in the thread McPerth linked is perhaps the best starting point from which to develop a Rebellion game. Even then, Kingmaker's level of complexity will have to be dialed back.
The enormity of it.
Still, it can be done. As to game balance, just throw that out the window.
BEFORE you apply OTU specific material (such and such book says they have no fleet, such and such book said they were on another side):
A.Determine your general sources - like travellermap.com and The Rebellion Sourcebook
B.Determine your conversions - some are easy, like the Army Sizes and Naval forces. The Rebellion Sourcebook had force strengths based on population and tech level. Now you have an army. Same with sector fleets, subsector fleets, and locations. You have UWP. Now develop a conversion table to FFW strengths and star system characteristics
C.Convert mercilessly don't worry about TAS news or tweaking for balance.
D.Now apply Rebellion, TAS new, and statements in texts
E.Tweak for balance, if you must...
F.Finally, don't worry about balance. Create reasonable goals. The Solomani cannot "win" Invasion Earth by throwing off the Imperial invaders, can they now? Just how many turns they can hold off the Imperium.
I suspect that in general Rebellion Era OTU universe was not gamed to make sense.
2300 was gamed, but even having the notes from the CDROM, France becoming a "superpower"?!?...
Still, it can be done. As to game balance, just throw that out the window.
BEFORE you apply OTU specific material (such and such book says they have no fleet, such and such book said they were on another side):
A.Determine your general sources - like travellermap.com and The Rebellion Sourcebook
B.Determine your conversions - some are easy, like the Army Sizes and Naval forces. The Rebellion Sourcebook had force strengths based on population and tech level. Now you have an army. Same with sector fleets, subsector fleets, and locations. You have UWP. Now develop a conversion table to FFW strengths and star system characteristics
C.Convert mercilessly don't worry about TAS news or tweaking for balance.
D.Now apply Rebellion, TAS new, and statements in texts
E.Tweak for balance, if you must...
F.Finally, don't worry about balance. Create reasonable goals. The Solomani cannot "win" Invasion Earth by throwing off the Imperial invaders, can they now? Just how many turns they can hold off the Imperium.
I suspect that in general Rebellion Era OTU universe was not gamed to make sense.
2300 was gamed, but even having the notes from the CDROM, France becoming a "superpower"?!?...
When you are done you have Europa the OTU Edition
(What supplement of Europa had the Polish horse cavalry units?):rofl:
(What supplement of Europa had the Polish horse cavalry units?):rofl:
It's interesting, while 2300 was gamed, it certainly didn't have to be.
It could have simply been made up out of whole cloth.
I'm not in depth with it, but I wonder if gaming it out made it any better or not. I imagine that gaming it made the historic timeline at least consistent.
It may well have been a more efficient use of time, fleshing out the time line via the game than making it up out of whole cloth, but maybe not if you count the total of man hours involved.
Hence the need to scale that enormity back.
Diplomacy managed to present the entire Belle Epoque/WW1, a Rebellion can do the same.
... can be easily achieved by assigning different victory conditions to different factions. Lucan and Dulinor must control Capital, for example, while Daibei wins simply by maintaining it's existence, Vland by controlling it's sector, Strephon by thwarting Lucan and/or Dulinor, etc.
In this way, a Rebellion would be akin factional play in Robject's proposed Counterstrike/Traveller game.
The fact the matter - which is routinely and perhaps deliberately overlooked in such complaints - is that the France of post-Twilight and 2300AD is a Euro-African nation. It's not merely the France constrained between the Pyrenees, Alps, and Rhine. It's a France which includes that historical European territory plus the whole of West Africa and other various overseas territories on Earth.
Nicholas Ruffin, the current Emperor of the Third French Empire, is not only of African descent but is also depicted as such in GDW's 2300AD illustrations.
Vland and Daibei could be shared victory with each other - just by continuing to exist.. Getting readmitted to a stable imperium as an autonomous zone would be equally a win for them.
Note that Economically, tho', Vland effectively loses if its 3 biggies (Sharushid, Makidhadrun, Nasiraaka) lose access to imperial markets.
Great examples, Wil. There are plenty of ways to balance a Rebellion game by providing different factions/players with different victory conditions.
What's more, wargaming's current Second Renaissance is replete with such mechanisms, so much so that a designer need not look far for either inspiration or straight up copying.
Although...
Spoiler:
Re the Spoiler... Yeah, but did he foresee the Rebellion???Great examples, Wil. There are plenty of ways to balance a Rebellion game by providing different factions/players with different victory conditions.
What's more, wargaming's current Second Renaissance is replete with such mechanisms, so much so that a designer need not look far for either inspiration or straight up copying.
Although...Spoiler:
And, for what it's worth, an Autonomous zone is what caused the SRW, when that AZ went all separatist. The Solomani Confederation was NOT the direct heir to the UN...
It was an AZ established in Year 704 (AM 6 p 10), and declared itself the SC in 871 (ibid.)
Empress
Margaret responded by ordering the reintegration of Terra into the Imperium. She deliberately selected the Terran date of 13 March 5471 (292-950 Imperial) for her decree (13 March was the date that Terra was originally incorporated into the Imperium, and the date Zhakirov married Antiama).
(AM6 p 11)
Margaret responded by ordering the reintegration of Terra into the Imperium. She deliberately selected the Terran date of 13 March 5471 (292-950 Imperial) for her decree (13 March was the date that Terra was originally incorporated into the Imperium, and the date Zhakirov married Antiama).
(AM6 p 11)
40 years later, 990, the SC rebelled formally, and the SRW began in earnest.
Also note that, even in 1115, the Imperium does not recognize the sovereignty of the SC. They still claim it as a region in rebellion, with a ceasefire in place.
Having played a few games of Invasion:Earth... it's a ROUGH go of it.
A wargame of it would almost NEED to be computer moderated to account for the comm lag...
He certainly saw a rebellion or, perhaps more accurately, a series of secession movements more or less disguised as "grants" of autonomous zones and some of which would result in fighting. With the precedents of Antares and the Solomani in hand, the Geonee are on the cusp of getting their Zone which means the Suerret, Lancians, and all the rest will start clamoring for their zones. So, Mr. Bland takes matters into hand.
Agreed, because as you note:
Formally being the key word here. Harassment, games of "chicken", and outright fighting was going on in scattered locations for decades as individual worlds within the Imperial designated and granted Sollie Sphere petitioned to be removed from the same.
I firmly believe the war officially kicked off when System "Defections" line crossed the Solomani War Preparation line.
IIRC, I can count Imperial wins on one hand. Of course, I haven't played it since the 90s.
Yeah, a FFW-style game would require Vassal support or something similar. Something like Imperium where turns are (roughly) 2 years might work. If strict time keeping proves to be a stumbling block, you design for a certain "vagueness" instead.
MY point is that you CAN use existing sources to create the counters and maps at the same scale as FFW.
Would it it be fun to play a faction with 8000-9000 systems on the map?
o: I remember seeing Europa events at GenCon and copies of it at my FLGS. I don't have that sort of time anymore. I'll let you know when I am 65 years old.
Would it it be fun to play a faction with 8000-9000 systems on the map?
o: I remember seeing Europa events at GenCon and copies of it at my FLGS. I don't have that sort of time anymore. I'll let you know when I am 65 years old.Nathan Brazil said:Would it it be fun to play a faction with 8000-9000 systems on the map?
Follow my link regarding The Campaign for North Africa.
That game takes an estimated fifty days to complete with 8 to 10 players on a side. That's "fun" in the same manner using a cheese grater on your inner thighs is "fun".
