Classic Traveller Armor mechanics in CE

[sekalo]

I am not sure why, but I like the Classic Traveller Armor class mechanic better then damage reduction. I know crazy; however, due to the latter is there any easy way to use the CT Armor mechanic 'penalty to hit' in CE? If so, do folks recommend using the CT values or is there a conversion formula?

Thank you

 

[Takei]

Depending on the flavour of CE you're using, I'd just use the combat charts from Snap Shot in your CE game.

 

[Dragoner]

I would just swap the matrices from CT straight over, and drop that part of CE.

 

[McPerth]

Armor is a very tricky thing to feature in a game like Traveller… The relation among accuracy, stopping power (damage) and penetration capability is always a difficult thing to represent.

Usual ways to approach it are it either gives you DMs to hit, so making you harder to be hit, but if hit full damage is received (CT approach) or reducing damage (MgT approach), each one with its own issues.

(Disclaimer: I will not give a solution here, just pointing the problems on each one)

CT approach (DMs to hit):

While easy, it doesn’t represent the fact armor many times reduces the damage more than fully avoiding it. It also makes good penetration weapons accurate, something that is not always true.

To give an example, let’s imagine you are confronting two enemies, one in vacc suit (cloth, for armor effects) and the other in Combat Armor. You have a snub pistol with HEAP rounds. If you shoot at the one with vacc suit, you’re quite likely to hit him, and so doing full damage, while if you shoot at the CA equipped one you’re quite unlikely to hit him. Whie this may seem logical (he’s more difficult to damage), if you miss the round goes elsewhere, producing collateral damage on the bridge equipment. So, shooting at the CA equipped enemy is more likely to produce this collateral damage than if you shoot at the vacc suit equipped one, while both should be equally easy to hit. OTOH, if you, due to other DMs, hit the one in CA, the damage will be the same than if you hit the one in vacc suit…

On another approach, the possibilities to hit are the same, so being in CA does not increase the probability of equipment damage, as does if this one is used.

Another effect is that if you have enough good DMs due to skill, stats or anything, you can damage a BD equipped person by throwing stones at him…

MgT approach (armor avoids damage):

While also easy, this uses to confuse armor piercing capability with stopping power…

So, a shotgun (high stopping power) uses to be a good weapon against armored people, while the shotgun pellets are quite easy to be stopped by armor (more so if the armor is full, leaving no exposed parts, as a vacc suit, CA or BD). Of course, you can give weapons an armor multiplier (as in T2K first ed), reducing this effect…

 

[sekalo]

Thank you all for the great ideas. I am actually trying to use CE to build a low tech/low magic system and setting for the old Conan stories that are in public domain. I am using Classic Traveller, Mercator and the CE to build what I need.

Magic is the worst part since I have no clue. I thought about trying to port magic from GURPS or The Fantasy Trip based on skills and health or something from SavageWorlds

But like I said, I just really like Armor as hit penalty since the mechanics just move so fast and can set combat up as the old Final Fantasy games, where range is based on zones. Sword World 2.0 does something very smiliar.

 

[McPerth]

Magic is the worst part since I have no clue.

Maybe this thread may help you...

THre are several threads about a fantasy setting posted by the same user on spring 2010. You can find them in the FIle Library/House rules forum of this same board (pages 3 and 4 currently, but you can look for them for dates, as said spring 2010)

 

[sekalo]

Maybe this thread may help you...

THre are several threads about a fantasy setting posted by the same user on spring 2010. You can find them in the FIle Library/House rules forum of this same board (pages 3 and 4 currently, but you can look for them for dates, as said spring 2010)

Thank you for the link. Very close to D&D, which I like, so thank you for pointing me to it. I will look it over and see if I can understand the content. Thank you again.

 

[whartung]

It also makes food penetration weapons accurate,

So, what are we talking here. Steak knives? Or may one of those big BBQ forks?

Whie this may seem logical (he’s more difficult to damage), if you miss the round goes elsewhere, producing collateral damage on the bridge equipment.

Well, that can become a narrative event. "Your round hit the CA, but seems to have had no effect" for example.

 

[McPerth]

It also makes food penetration weapons accurate,

So, what are we talking here. Steak knives? Or may one of those big BBQ forks?

I'd say we're talking about my inaccuracy with the keys . Of course, I meant good. not food...

Fixed now, thanks for the heads up

Well, that can become a narrative event. "Your round hit the CA, but seems to have had no effect" for example

Of course you can, but then you have to decide at wich point the missing means really so or just ineffective...

And for ending up by saying it, the otehr approach is better

 

[kilemall]

This damage/no damage thing I finessed in my version of Striker, as I roll hit location affecting damage and allowing for differing armor for the armor roll. Then the armor roll can up the damage, or take it away.

 

[sekalo]

These post have stimulated a lot of thought, and I appreciate the support. I see the need for both mechanics: Armor as hit penalty and Armor as damage reduction; there is no right or wrong answer. But I found at my table that Armor as hit penalty, while not as accurate, provides for a faster flow since I run my combat style on the old Final Fantasy games where range zones. These zones can be any range; however, players in the 'front line' zone are in melee. I might put items in the 'front line' zone that can give cover or hinder movement in and out. Players in the "back" are at 'x' range and players in the "far back" are at 'y' range. Example the idea is that someone in 'far back' might have a Halberd or a Pike, while someone in the 'back' zone has a spear, etc. This way combat is detailed enough to have fun, and abstract enough that folks are not hindered by hex grid placement. In addition, easier to roleplay out movement and ranges.

+------------------+------------+------------+------------+----------------+
|  hero far back   | hero back  | front line | enemy back | enemy far back |
+------------------+------------+------------+------------+----------------+

If I want or need something more detailed I usually run The Fantasy Trip.

Side note - what I like about Traveller is the attacks with multiple shots. For example in D&D an attack is not a single attack but a series of blows, which is stated in the rule book. However, that concept is broken with missile (bows/crossbows/daggers/dart/etc) attacks when you only have 1 or to shots with the crossbow. I always worked around this in D&D with all weapons doing 1d6 damage, and it takes 1d6 arrows/bolts/etc to hit your target if you successfully land an attack with a attack roll. Or a simple ammo check if folks do not want to micromanage ammo, which gets harder as they explore further into the crawl, when I feel like throwing it out there during the crawl. "roll 5- to see if you still have ammo. Roll 4- to see if you have ammo".

The best part of rules lite, is that the rules do not get involved with trying to make the the story and table fun. However, I come from D&D and allowed most of my players to try anything. I use the "Hear Noise" table and might give them benefits if they are doing something in character or hinder them if they do something out of the character; however, I might also give them +1/-1 if they roleplay out what they are doing and use items or gear that they brought along.

For example: a Wizard who prepared a small shop/lab with the needed tools to cut a gem stone (roleplayed it out and played their character with buying and collecting equipment) . Roll a d6 with target of 3- or 4-. However, if the play just said "I am a wizard, so i am going to try and polish/cut this ruby", roll d6 with a target of 2-

 

[infojunky]

If I want or need something more detailed I usually run The Fantasy Trip.

Or you could use TFT for Traveller, there is a mod out there...

 

[Ildefonse]

If you're familiar with CE, have you looked at Sword of Cepheus? Or Fast Magic by Zozer Games? Those might give you some other ideas for magic, with different approaches (more detailed and less detailed, respectively).

 

[sekalo]

If you're familiar with CE, have you looked at Sword of Cepheus? Or Fast Magic by Zozer Games? Those might give you some other ideas for magic, with different approaches (more detailed and less detailed, respectively).

I have not seen these, and only know CE by the SRD found via the Internet for free. I have been using a mixture of CT1 and Mercator. I tried using the Psionic like rules of the SRD, but it did not feel right for the type of magic mechanics I want.

I will check out Sword of Cepheus or Fast Magic.

 

[infojunky]

Pondering this...

Consider this, using the armor DMs for a Saving Throw against Damage...

 

[sekalo]

Pondering this...

Consider this, using the armor DMs for a Saving Throw against Damage...

Oh now this is sounding good, since I am a big fan of the saving throws in D&D.

So do you envision this roll after a successful to hit?

 

[mike wightman]

Are you sure you want to use the CT combat armour matrices?

Notice that just about every weapon gets a bonus to hit unarmoured targets.

To gauge the effectiveness of armour subtract the armour DM in the table from the armour DM for unarmoured
eg body pistol vs cloth (o--4)=4 body pistol vs combat armour (0--7)=7, this could become your DM to save vs damage.

 

[sekalo]

Are you sure you want to use the CT combat armour matrices?

Notice that just about every weapon gets a bonus to hit unarmoured targets.

To gauge the effectiveness of armour subtract the armour DM in the table from the armour DM for unarmoured
eg body pistol vs cloth (o--4)=4 body pistol vs combat armour (0--7)=7, this could become your DM to save vs damage.

I never thought of using that value like that, and it is why coming to forums for ideas is awesome! I like how easy and quick damage reduction can be without having all the fiddly bits of different values. This also keeps the game running quick and still rules light.

Much appreciate.

 

[infojunky]

Oh now this is sounding good, since I am a big fan of the saving throws in D&D.

So do you envision this roll after a successful to hit?

Yes...

 

[Ildefonse]

You might find the Double Tap rule worth looking at too.