The Rebellion and World War One?

[jalberti]

I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

I do agree that it would be an all or nothing grab for Dulinor. If his Coronation Fleet did not succeed, he could not head back home again and remain in power, specially since he did another pre-recorded event for release back home that he had won and taken Capital. He would have lost all credibility. If it was not that Virus controlled harvester, it would have been someone else who takes him out.

If Dulinor is to survive beyond 1130, either the Coronation Fleet has to win or it never went out against Lucan in the first place.

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

 

[jalberti]

I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

I do agree that it would be an all or nothing grab for Dulinor. If his Coronation Fleet did not succeed, he could not head back home again and remain in power, specially since he did another pre-recorded event for release back home that he had won and taken Capital. He would have lost all credibility. If it was not that Virus controlled harvester, it would have been someone else who takes him out.

If Dulinor is to survive beyond 1130, either the Coronation Fleet has to win or it never went out against Lucan in the first place.

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

 

[jalberti]

I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

I do agree that it would be an all or nothing grab for Dulinor. If his Coronation Fleet did not succeed, he could not head back home again and remain in power, specially since he did another pre-recorded event for release back home that he had won and taken Capital. He would have lost all credibility. If it was not that Virus controlled harvester, it would have been someone else who takes him out.

If Dulinor is to survive beyond 1130, either the Coronation Fleet has to win or it never went out against Lucan in the first place.

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Reg Redblade:
This thread has reminded me of an MT issue that was never really clear to me.

Specifically : IS CRAIG ACTUALLY A LIZARD ?

No. He's human.

In the folio "Arrival Vengeance: Final Odyssey" they have a picture of Duke Craig beside his stats. He's a human male. He's in one or two other illustrations as well, all as a human.

In one of the "April Fool's Day" issues of Challenge magazine, they have a 'book review' of a book by Duke Craig titled "I AM NOT A LIZZARD", so even then they were having some fun over the confusion caused by that picture in the sourcebook you referred to.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Reg Redblade:
This thread has reminded me of an MT issue that was never really clear to me.

Specifically : IS CRAIG ACTUALLY A LIZARD ?

No. He's human.

In the folio "Arrival Vengeance: Final Odyssey" they have a picture of Duke Craig beside his stats. He's a human male. He's in one or two other illustrations as well, all as a human.

In one of the "April Fool's Day" issues of Challenge magazine, they have a 'book review' of a book by Duke Craig titled "I AM NOT A LIZZARD", so even then they were having some fun over the confusion caused by that picture in the sourcebook you referred to.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Reg Redblade:
This thread has reminded me of an MT issue that was never really clear to me.

Specifically : IS CRAIG ACTUALLY A LIZARD ?

No. He's human.

In the folio "Arrival Vengeance: Final Odyssey" they have a picture of Duke Craig beside his stats. He's a human male. He's in one or two other illustrations as well, all as a human.

In one of the "April Fool's Day" issues of Challenge magazine, they have a 'book review' of a book by Duke Craig titled "I AM NOT A LIZZARD", so even then they were having some fun over the confusion caused by that picture in the sourcebook you referred to.

 

[Border Reiver]

The picture in the Daibei section of the Rebellion sourcebook clearly shows the symbol for Antares and probably represents those cigar chomping saurons in an early challenge issue.

The April Fool's reference actully highlighted the possible confusion to me as I had never paid the picture much attention other than thinking that the pic was a Vargr burns victim.

 

[Border Reiver]

The picture in the Daibei section of the Rebellion sourcebook clearly shows the symbol for Antares and probably represents those cigar chomping saurons in an early challenge issue.

The April Fool's reference actully highlighted the possible confusion to me as I had never paid the picture much attention other than thinking that the pic was a Vargr burns victim.

 

[Border Reiver]

The picture in the Daibei section of the Rebellion sourcebook clearly shows the symbol for Antares and probably represents those cigar chomping saurons in an early challenge issue.

The April Fool's reference actully highlighted the possible confusion to me as I had never paid the picture much attention other than thinking that the pic was a Vargr burns victim.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

...

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

On Tranian: taking him out is easier said than done. Even if Capital falls, he still would have Gateway Domain behind him, plus a bunch of surviving fleets.

On the other hand, not all remnants of Lucan's Imperium would rally to him. You would expect many to simply defect to Dulinor, while others would rally to Margaret. Some, not doubt, would flee into Antares and/or Lishun, and others would simply go home. It would depend on their location, their political views, and the likelihood of being punished by the victors.

Tranian certainly would be in an interesting situation post-Lucan. It seems unlikely that he would have approved of Lucan's less sane escapades, but he certainly would have trouble ducking responsibility for them. He wouldn't want to face a war crimes tribunal...

But on the other hand, all of the senior figures of Lucan's Imperium would have that problem. That would actually encourage them to coalesce around a moderate figure like Tranian (and we don't have any other named figures to use instead). Certain more radically sadistic figures are likely to be thrown to the wolves...

Incidentally, nobody has mentioned the K'kree incursions in this discussion yet. Personally I tended to read these as being relatively small scale, rather than yet another full scale invasion. That would be just too much for my tastes.

Still, the threat of such a thing could be significant in the post-Lucan settlement.
You need "Tranian the buffer against the K'kree" on your side more than you need to punish "Tranian the hated war criminal".

On Dulinor: I'm not particularly impressed by the "he has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better" argument. It's too much like "Hitler would have had to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better".

Of course I've just suggested that Tranian the war criminal should be able to get away with his crimes, just like Margaret the war criminal and all the other war criminals. But Dulinor is something special. Dulinor caused it all.

Relying on Dulinor being a big baby whose pangs of conscience will somehow punish him for killing billions and billions of people is absurd. He's one of the greatest mass murderers in the whole of history, but it's OK because he feels bad about it? Feh.

Bring on the farm machinery.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

...

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

On Tranian: taking him out is easier said than done. Even if Capital falls, he still would have Gateway Domain behind him, plus a bunch of surviving fleets.

On the other hand, not all remnants of Lucan's Imperium would rally to him. You would expect many to simply defect to Dulinor, while others would rally to Margaret. Some, not doubt, would flee into Antares and/or Lishun, and others would simply go home. It would depend on their location, their political views, and the likelihood of being punished by the victors.

Tranian certainly would be in an interesting situation post-Lucan. It seems unlikely that he would have approved of Lucan's less sane escapades, but he certainly would have trouble ducking responsibility for them. He wouldn't want to face a war crimes tribunal...

But on the other hand, all of the senior figures of Lucan's Imperium would have that problem. That would actually encourage them to coalesce around a moderate figure like Tranian (and we don't have any other named figures to use instead). Certain more radically sadistic figures are likely to be thrown to the wolves...

Incidentally, nobody has mentioned the K'kree incursions in this discussion yet. Personally I tended to read these as being relatively small scale, rather than yet another full scale invasion. That would be just too much for my tastes.

Still, the threat of such a thing could be significant in the post-Lucan settlement.
You need "Tranian the buffer against the K'kree" on your side more than you need to punish "Tranian the hated war criminal".

On Dulinor: I'm not particularly impressed by the "he has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better" argument. It's too much like "Hitler would have had to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better".

Of course I've just suggested that Tranian the war criminal should be able to get away with his crimes, just like Margaret the war criminal and all the other war criminals. But Dulinor is something special. Dulinor caused it all.

Relying on Dulinor being a big baby whose pangs of conscience will somehow punish him for killing billions and billions of people is absurd. He's one of the greatest mass murderers in the whole of history, but it's OK because he feels bad about it? Feh.

Bring on the farm machinery.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

...

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.

On Tranian: taking him out is easier said than done. Even if Capital falls, he still would have Gateway Domain behind him, plus a bunch of surviving fleets.

On the other hand, not all remnants of Lucan's Imperium would rally to him. You would expect many to simply defect to Dulinor, while others would rally to Margaret. Some, not doubt, would flee into Antares and/or Lishun, and others would simply go home. It would depend on their location, their political views, and the likelihood of being punished by the victors.

Tranian certainly would be in an interesting situation post-Lucan. It seems unlikely that he would have approved of Lucan's less sane escapades, but he certainly would have trouble ducking responsibility for them. He wouldn't want to face a war crimes tribunal...

But on the other hand, all of the senior figures of Lucan's Imperium would have that problem. That would actually encourage them to coalesce around a moderate figure like Tranian (and we don't have any other named figures to use instead). Certain more radically sadistic figures are likely to be thrown to the wolves...

Incidentally, nobody has mentioned the K'kree incursions in this discussion yet. Personally I tended to read these as being relatively small scale, rather than yet another full scale invasion. That would be just too much for my tastes.

Still, the threat of such a thing could be significant in the post-Lucan settlement.
You need "Tranian the buffer against the K'kree" on your side more than you need to punish "Tranian the hated war criminal".

On Dulinor: I'm not particularly impressed by the "he has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better" argument. It's too much like "Hitler would have had to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better".

Of course I've just suggested that Tranian the war criminal should be able to get away with his crimes, just like Margaret the war criminal and all the other war criminals. But Dulinor is something special. Dulinor caused it all.

Relying on Dulinor being a big baby whose pangs of conscience will somehow punish him for killing billions and billions of people is absurd. He's one of the greatest mass murderers in the whole of history, but it's OK because he feels bad about it? Feh.

Bring on the farm machinery.

 

[aramis]

And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.

 

[aramis]

And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.

 

[aramis]

And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.

Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.

Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.

Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.

 

[alanb]

Just a thought about "what's wrong with Dulinor"...

His entire plan is top-down. It seems as though Dulinor and some of his fellow zealots have come up with a Master Plan, which they have proceeded to attempt to impose upon reality regardless of the cost.

They don't seem to have actually asked the people it is supposed to benefit what they think about it all...

Just a thought.

 

[alanb]

Just a thought about "what's wrong with Dulinor"...

His entire plan is top-down. It seems as though Dulinor and some of his fellow zealots have come up with a Master Plan, which they have proceeded to attempt to impose upon reality regardless of the cost.

They don't seem to have actually asked the people it is supposed to benefit what they think about it all...

Just a thought.