The Rebellion and World War One?

[kaladorn]

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

 

[daryen]

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

 

[daryen]

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

 

[daryen]

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

 

[kaladorn]

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

 

[kaladorn]

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

 

[kaladorn]

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.

First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.

First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.

First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

 

[aramis]

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

 

[aramis]

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

 

[aramis]

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

 

[kaladorn]

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

 

[kaladorn]

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

 

[kaladorn]

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

 

[kaladorn]

Well, Tranian's a later day construct (ie I don't know as if he is actually referred to other than GT or later T4+ dates... I don't recall seeing him mentioned in MT). That doesn't discount him, but I was thinking initially of working mostly within the list of available candidates inside MT itself.

Margaret might be an arguably more legitemate heir. Or maybe Lucan sired a child before being whacked. And maybe whoever steps into his place takes over as 'Regent', still maintaining Lucan's legitimacy as Emperor, hence the heir's eventual legitemate succession. This could introduce a period of calm while the Regent grows up....

I'm not sure if I dislike or like Margaret. I dislike some things attributed to her, but they may be hostile spin rather than fact.

Of course, my favourite noble is Craig, from what I know. He seems closest to my idea of what a noble is supposed to be, perhaps Norris or Brzrk in second and third (either or).

A different Rebellion might never see the development and release of the Virus. So no problem to clean up....

I actually felt bad when Brzrk got killed off... I thought that was cheap....