The Rebellion and World War One?

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[kaladorn]

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you

<no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

 

[kaladorn]

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you

<no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

 

[kaladorn]

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you

<no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

 

[aramis]

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

 

[aramis]

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

 

[aramis]

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

 

[kaladorn]

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

 

[kaladorn]

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

 

[kaladorn]

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

 

[daryen]

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

 

[daryen]

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

 

[daryen]

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

 

[kaladorn]

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

 

[kaladorn]

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.