The Lurenti-class Tender gets a Makeover?

[Badenov]

And then it can't, in HG, launch all its riders at once, nor pick them all up at once.

Except that it can. HG p 32, "Launch Facility: Ordinary launch facilities for a ship allow one craft to be launched per turn per 10,000 tons of hull." At 300,000 tons, that's 30 launches per turn.

The only advantage for dispersed structures I can find is to skip paying the 10% tonnage thing to carry "Big Craft" internally, and I realize that's reading into the rules a bit. I based it on the quote "Big craft require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass in the ship" and because Dispersed ships don't carry the rider's tonnage inside the ship, I assumed that meant no extra tonnage needed.

.Admittedly, at 140,000 tons of riders, that's a pretty substantial chunk of hull and not an awful reason to go with Distributed hull.

Well, completely ineffective to prevent breakthrough.

So, three batteries knocked out and two, the last laser and the last missile, reduced from 9 to 0? (HG p 49, If the ship has only one battery of a type (including spinal mounts), a hit reduces its USP factor by the indicated amount.) That's a bit more resilient than you characterized, but still very squishy when you consider an attacker with hundreds of missile bays.

Ship's Tactics-3 is enough to bump the hit chance to 1/36 (size A, Long range) and with penetration to 1/100.
Firing 100 Meson-N to disable one single screening frigate...

Yes. Of course Ship Tactics isn't available as a skill until the character is pretty senior (as far as I can tell, I've been pouring through HG chargen nut I don't feel like I have the Tao of it yet), and then you have to get good rolls. But yes, even a 3 can make things easier. As long as the opponent doesn't also have it.

If there were a way, I would totally set up a pipeline where O-5's would train for about a year in ship tactics before they assume command of a ship (or before the XO tour for a preference). That'd give them, in the 'skill total = # of weeks to train' method, about a skill of 5. It'd be an advantage until everyone got on the bandwagon.

Missiles are cheaper to punish lack of armour. And they are great at reducing the factor of enemy spinals by one step, making them noticeably worse at penetrating screens.

PA spinals kills small stuff & riders with expensive crits, winning the war of attrition, but that is perhaps more important at lower TLs.

Missiles punish lack of armor, sure, but are super vulnerable to Dampers at TL15. Below TL15, yeah, nukes are brutal.

 

[Spinward Flow]

And then it can't, in HG, launch all its riders at once, nor pick them all up at once.

Depends on the size of the tender, the size of the riders ... and whether or not there's a Launch Tube (or few) in operation on the tender.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And then it can't, in HG, launch all its riders at once, nor pick them all up at once.

As already mentioned, this is a problem for fighters, but not riders.

Even then, launch tubes are cheaper than tankers or carried fuel skimmers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The only advantage for dispersed structures I can find is to skip paying the 10% tonnage thing to carry "Big Craft" internally, and I realize that's reading into the rules a bit.

Yes, that is explicitly so:

TCS, p16:
SUBORDINATE CRAFT
_ _ Whenever a ship carries other ships, big craft, or small craft as part of its complement of vessels and vehicles, provision must be made for hangars and launch facilities for them.
_ _ Required Fittings: Small craft (under 100 tons) require no additional fittings when carried on any ship massing 1000 tons or less, or on any ship with configuration 7 (dispersed structure). They require tonnage equal to 130% of their mass on ships over 1000 tons. Big craft (100 tons and over, including very large ships 10,000 tons and higher) require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass; they require tonnage equal to 100% of their mass when carried on ships with hull configuration 7 (dispersed structure).

Admittedly, at 140,000 tons of riders, that's a pretty substantial chunk of hull and not an awful reason to go with Distributed hull.

Agreed, an extra 14 000 Dton overhead is a steep cost, but still cheaper than tankers. A warship must be able to refuel in the field.

So, three batteries knocked out and two, the last laser and the last missile, reduced from 9 to 0? (HG p 49, If the ship has only one battery of a type (including spinal mounts), a hit reduces its USP factor by the indicated amount.) That's a bit more resilient than you characterized, but still very squishy when you consider an attacker with hundreds of missile bays.

As far as I know two identical factor 9 batteries takes two weapon hits to knock out. It's only if the ship only has one battery of a type that the factor is reduced:

LBB5'80, p49:
_ _ Weapon-n: Each hit destroys one battery of weapons, either offensive (laser, energy weapon, meson gun, particle accelerator, or missile) or defensive (sandcasters, or repulsors). If the ship has only one battery of a type (including spinal mounts), a hit reduces its USP factor by the indicated amount. As with screens, the firing player chooses which weapons are affected, but damage must be divided as evenly as possible.

If you have two batteries, you have more than one, whether some are disabled or not.

Yes. Of course Ship Tactics isn't available as a skill until the character is pretty senior (as far as I can tell, I've been pouring through HG chargen nut I don't feel like I have the Tao of it yet), and then you have to get good rolls. But yes, even a 3 can make things easier. As long as the opponent doesn't also have it.

If there were a way, I would totally set up a pipeline where O-5's would train for about a year in ship tactics before they assume command of a ship (or before the XO tour for a preference). That'd give them, in the 'skill total = # of weeks to train' method, about a skill of 5. It'd be an advantage until everyone got on the bandwagon.

Everyone is assumed to do this, and get Ship's Tactics-2 as standard.

Skills are not that easily gained in CT, see experience in LBB2. Raising Ship's Tactics from 1 to 2 permanently would take eight years of dedicated training...

In LBB5 Ship Tactics is available to any commissioned officer, but more likely for Admirals.

Missiles punish lack of armor, sure, but are super vulnerable to Dampers at TL15. Below TL15, yeah, nukes are brutal.

Penetrating screen 8 (TL14) is 9+ (¹⁰/₃₆), and screen 9 (TL15) is 10+ (⁶/₃₆) for missile bays. Not a night and day difference. Turret missiles are only effective at much lower TLs.

 

[Rupert]

Except that it can. HG p 32, "Launch Facility: Ordinary launch facilities for a ship allow one craft to be launched per turn per 10,000 tons of hull." At 300,000 tons, that's 30 launches per turn.

Contradicted by HG80, p.38, and also by TCS, p.16. As config 7 hulls are so disadvantaged (can't be armoured, are not streamlined in the slightest), I go with this rule, and not the (1 per 10,000 DTons) because otherwise dispersed hulls are just junk. Well, okay - they're a bit harder for meson guns to shoot up.

I think, were I seriously considering a game using CT where this mattered I'd rule that small craft could be launched and recovered at one per turn per 10,000 DTons without a launch tube, and large craft would be limited to one per turn.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Lets compare a dispersed vs. streamlined carrier:

Dispersed, like a Lurenti, but corrected and the weapons deleted:

CB-U7424J4-000000-00000-20    MCr 153 165     400 000 Dton
bearing                                        Crew=2 385
batteries                                           TL=15
                Cargo=2556 Fuel=176000 EP=16000 Agility=2

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                    2 556   186 190
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Unstreamlined Custom             U        400 000         
Configuration       Dispersed          7                   20 000
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1    20 000    80 000
Manoeuvre D                            2    1    20 000    14 000
Power Plant                            4    1    16 000    48 000
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4   176 000         
Purifier                                    1     2 640        26
                                                                
Bridge                                      1     8 000     2 000
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                         2381     4 762       595
                                                                
Cargo                                             2 556         
                                                                
Ship                20000 Dton              7   140 000       280
Heavy Fighter       50 Dton               200    10 000    21 086
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 186 189,65       Sum:     2 556   186 190
Class Cost          MCr  34 675,97      Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 153 164,92                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge   200
Passengers            Mid     0        2385       Engineers   560
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service  1210
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight   415
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Streamlined:

CB-U6424J4-000000-00000-20    MCr 180 812     450 000 Dton
bearing                                        Crew=2 651
batteries                                           TL=15
                Cargo=2194 Fuel=198000 EP=18000 Agility=2

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                    2 194   220 748
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             U        450 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                   36 000
Scoops              Streamlined                               450
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1    22 500    90 000
Manoeuvre D                            2    1    22 500    15 750
Power Plant                            4    1    18 000    54 000
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4   198 000         
Purifier                                    1     2 970        30
                                                                
Bridge                                      1     9 000     2 250
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                         2647     5 294       662
                                                                
Cargo                                             2 194         
                                                                
Ship                20000 Dton              7   154 000       308
Heavy Fighter       50 Dton               200    13 000    21 092
Launch Tube         50 Dton                 2     2 500         5
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 220 748,45       Sum:     2 194   220 748
Class Cost          MCr  41 933,31      Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 180 811,96                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge   225
Passengers            Mid     0        2651       Engineers   630
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service  1361
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight   435
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Both carries the same load of seven Noilikans and 200 heavy fighters, and can launch them all in a single round.
The streamlined carrier is ~10 bigger and ~15% more expensive.

The problem for the dispersed ship is refueling. In order to jump every week at least 50% of squadron fuel tonnage is in streamlined ships (TCS, p39), or partially streamlined if we disregard ocean refuelling.

So, the dispersed ship requires an additional streamlined tanker with ~176 kDt fuel capacity:

TH-S6424J4-000000-00000-0     MCr 78 014     220 000 Dton
bearing                                        Crew=1 083
batteries                                           TL=15
                 Cargo=3962 Fuel=176000 EP=8800 Agility=2

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                    3 962    97 518
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             S        220 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                   17 600
Scoops              Streamlined                               220
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1    11 000    44 000
Manoeuvre D                            2    1    11 000     7 700
Power Plant                            4    1     8 800    26 400
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-7,6, 4 weeks        7,6   176 000         
Purifier                                    1     2 640        26
                                                                
Bridge                                      1     4 400     1 100
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  3        12         2
Staterooms, Half                         1080     2 160       270
                                                                
Cargo                                             3 962         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 97 517,90        Sum:     3 962    97 518
Class Cost          MCr 20 478,76       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 78 014,32                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge   110
Passengers            Mid     0        1083       Engineers   308
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   665
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

The streamlined carrier costs GCr 181, the dispersed carrier costs GCr 153, and the tanker costs GCr 78.

To provide the same functionality do we want one ship of 450 kDt costing GCr 181, or two ships of total 660 kDt costing GCr 238?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Contradicted by HG80, p.38, and also by TCS, p.16. As config 7 hulls are so disadvantaged (can't be armoured, are not streamlined in the slightest), I go with this rule, and not the (1 per 10,000 DTons) because otherwise dispersed hulls are just junk.

LBB5'80, p38:
_ _ Launch and Recovery: Ships carrying vessels (small craft or big craft) may launch or recover them. A launch facility may launch one vessel each per turn. A launch tube may launch up to forty vessels in a turn. A ship with a dispersed structure configuration may launch all its vessels in one turn. Recovery of craft is performed at the same rate.

Launch facilities are already defined on p32:

LBB5'80, p32:
_ _ Vehicle Launch Facilities: Starships and non-starships carried on a ship must be provided with some form of launch facilities.
_ _ _ _ 1. Dispersed Structures: Ships which have a type 7 configuration hull carry craft and ships attached to their exterior. They need no additional fittings. All craft carried by a configuration 7 ship may be launched in one turn.
_ _ _ _ 2. Launch Facility: Ordinary launch facilities for a ship allow one craft to be launched per turn per 10,000 tons of hull. These facilities are available at no cost or additional tonnage.
_ _ _ _ 3. Launch Tubes: Rapid launch facilities may be created to allow the fast deployment of fighters or other craft. The required tonnage is 25 times the tonnage of the largest craft to pass through the facility; cost is Cr2,000 per ton.

One ordinary launch facility is one craft per turn. You get one ordinary launch facility per 10 kDt of carrier.



If that is really such a problem for you, make smaller carriers for one rider each. The total cost will be almost the same, and it will be more flexible as you can divide the squadron as you wish.

Example, compare with the 450 kDt streamlined carrier above:

CB-P6424J3-000000-00000-3     MCr 27 260      67 500 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=407
batteries                                           TL=15
                   Cargo=506 Fuel=29700 EP=2700 Agility=2

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                      507    33 285
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             P         67 500         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    5 400
Scoops              Streamlined                                68
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1     3 375    13 500
Manoeuvre D                            2    1     3 375     2 363
Power Plant                            4    1     2 700     8 100
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4    29 700         
Purifier                                    1       446         4
                                                                
Bridge                                      1     1 350       338
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                          403       806       101
                                                                
Cargo                                               507         
                                                                
Ship                20000 Dton              1    22 000        44
Heavy Fighter       50 Dton                30     1 950     3 164
Launch Tube         50 Dton                 1     1 250         3
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 33 285,01        Sum:       507    33 285
Class Cost          MCr  6 326,27       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 27 259,99                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    34
Passengers            Mid     0         407       Engineers    95
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   205
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight    73
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

GCr 7 × 27 = 189 vs GCr 181 for the single carrier.