The Lifespan of a TED?

[marginaleye]

I am in the process of creating a non-canonical campaign world inspired by the one described in <u>Path of Tears</u>, but differing in certain very important respects.

In this campaign world, a "Collapse-like event" (caused by a completely unforeseen natural disaster combined with really bad socio-technological planning, rather than war and malice) happened at some point in the moderately distant past. Centuries have passed, and a somewhat "Coalition-like" group of worlds have re-discovered jump-technology, and beginning to pick up the pieces.

Here's my question:
How long will the Technologically Elevated Dictatorships last? At some point, they're going to run out of spare parts, and the relic weapons and equipment they depend upon will stop working.

And, on a related question, how long will "scavanging relic equipment from boneyards" be an economically worthwhile activity? I'm assuming that anything deliberately put in mothballs for long-term storage will last for a couple of centuries at least, but such caches will be few and far between... I suspect most of what the Coalition's scavangers in the canonical <u>Path of Tears</u> setting bring in was <b>not</b> wrapped up and stored in nitrogen-filled vaults for posterity...

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Moving the Collapse back to a century or two would certainly change the landscape quite a bit. IMO, there wouldn't be any TEDs left- they ran out of spare parts a while back, their tech started working, and the people put their heads on pikes. Some of them might have survived as plain old dictatorships and potentially have transitioned to other forms of government, but there's not going to be anybody running on relic technology.

Likewise, I have a feeling that most boneyard worlds will be tougher to salvage from, since so much time has passed. Vacuum worlds might be better off in this respect, but even there micrometeorite damage and the like will have taken their toll. Recovery is likely to be so much harder that your "RC" is likely to be completely different- there's no relic tech out there to jump-start them, so the emphasis is more likely to be on slow, gradual recovery.

 

[far-trader]

Which TEDs? The ones your new Coalition might run into as they strike out on re-contact or do you mean the Coalition themselves? I guess what I mean is did your society collapse indepndant of, and before, the big blow up and somehow was ignored by the big boys both during their natural disaster and the period before the fireworks as well as the whole war? And no Vampire fleets after that?

Some considerations:

If they were that independant and isolated before what was their attitude and knowledge re the Imperium et al?

Are they bitter that no one came to help, or curious why no one came to help?

TEDs don't need working tech, just the fear or belief they have it is enough until someone challenges it. So your recontact team might not have to face the TEDs "secret" police force with Battle Dress and FGMP but the general populace and army are still cowed by the threat and will do as ordered as long as the TED is in power. Especially under the old "better the devil we know" axiom.

Not all TEDs are evil. Some could be benevolent dictators loved by the populace for husbanding precious life sustaining tech, just a thought.

And not all TEDs would have sprung up immediately from the ashes. Like the scenarios for bootstrap campaigns some could be very recent, having just discovered a Phoenix cache or such, and be at the peak of their real Tech power.

The most enduring and valuable salvage is likely to be knowledge. Not a preserved or relic Fusion
Plus reactor, but duracopy schematics of how to build, operate and maintain one. Again, just another thought.

 

[marginaleye]

This squares with my thoughts on the subject. Setting the "Collapse-equivalent" about two or three hundred years in the setting's past should kill of the TEDs. Trade between the "Coalition-equivalent" and the Wilds will run along more conventional lines -- technological goodies going out, and natural products (e.g. lanthanum ore, zuchai crystals, exotic foods and pharmaceutical precursors, etc.) coming back.

Since there was no Virus, the "Collapse-equivalent" was much slower. Basically, the pre-Collapse civilization depended upon a network of natural hyperspace jump-points which, in turn, depended upon the presence of several hyper-massive black holes in the galactic core. When two of those black holes swallowed one another, the "lines of force" running through the galaxy suddenly shifted from one "stable state" to another, and all the jump-points vanished, without warning (they'll be back eventually, but the process of reaching a new "stable state," galaxy-wide, will take centuries).

Pre-Collapse civilization was highly centralized and positively Vilani-like in its use of draconian intellectual property regulations to control society. Everything above about Tech Level 7 or 8 was distributed in "black box" form, and no one world (apart, of course, from a few "colonizing powers" -- Earth itself, and a few neighboring worlds) was allowed to have all the industrial and scientific know-how to be self-sufficient. Thus, when the jump-points winked out, everyone was isolated and left with a dwindling supply of "black boxes" that were (a) designed to resist reverse-engineering and (b) often wouldn't work with "home-brew" parts that didn't have the right built-in "digital signatures" (or some such techno-babble). They knew how to plug Module-A1 into Socket-B2, but that was about it.

So instead of war followed by Collapse (as in the canonical setting), Collapse was followed by war (albeit on a purely local scale, as the inhabitants of each world squabbled for control of a diminishing supply of nearly-irreproducible spare sparts). The end result, however, would look pretty similar (i.e. blasted worlds inhabited by neo-barbarians, albeit not reflexively technophobic ones), although I suspect that more worlds that would be lethal in the canonical setting (e.g. airless ones) would retain at least a few inhabitants in this variant.

I envision the campaign beginning a few decades after the development of the canonical "from-anywhere, to anywhere" jump drive (distinct from the point-to-point drive upon which pre-Collapse civilization depended, that no longer works). The "Coalition-equivalent" will look more like the Sword Worlds of H. Beam Piper's novel (not the ones in the Spinward Marches) -- technologically vigorous, but prone to squabbling and competition. Imagine the Technarchs of Oriflame, free to indulge their passion for fratricidal bickering, without having to worry about what Aubaine or the Hivers are up to. If there are TEDs, they're either adventurers who have decided to set up shop out in the Wilds, or natives who are getting propped up in exchange for lucerative trading deals.

On the other hand, since the Collapse in this setting was a little gentler than the one described in "Path of Tears" and "Survival Margin," there will be more a few more "Solee-like" planets out in the Wilds, and the secret of how to make a jump drive that works under the current astrophysical conditions will, inevitably, get out and proliferate...

 

[Uxi]

TED's wouldn't last as such beyond the intermediate future. Depending how big the caches are, the discipline to ration appropriately (first the general grunts and peons lose their tech, then the veterans... then the elite... then the secret service/royal guard/whatever), and if even rudimentary maintenance and cannibilization is around, I could see a TED's power base lasting for quite some time... possibly even centuries.

Then, the wiser ones would be leading the redevelopment (or at least the reverse engineering) and they "evolve" into more standard Traveller-like Feudal Technocracies.

 

[aramis]

The other thing is that certain post-TL9 plants might be entirely self-maintaining: feed the ores, and it does the rest. Possibly also self-mining, too...

It requires some assumptions about reliability, but such autofactory complexes could be the basis for a TED, as well, and if he's able to produce guns, he's got the edge. The trick will be "When does the autofac actually BELIEVE he's dead, and someone else may take over?"

But that's a side possibility,

 

[Uxi]

Oh yeah and what you're planning sounds like Hard Times. The bottom wouldn't be quite so deep nor so complete as what Virus did to the Last Imperium.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Perhaps you are running more along the lines of The Long Night where pockets just go back to business as usual and maintaining the status quo?.

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

You may wish to read Issac Asimov's Foundation plus Foundation and Empire about how a TED was destroyed by the traders. I believe it is the second book Foundation and Empire where this is found.

LIW

P.S. TEDs have the same lifespan as any third world dictator IMHO

 

[kafka47]

I wonder if the complexity of 1248 would mean that TEDs would be a retreat or have their power increased because of the collabouration and growing interdependence upon Guild support which is what MJD has suggested.

Personally, I like the idea of TEDs having a longer life and becoming a thorn in the side of various factions. However, I would want to have a more myriad of forms of TED government which would make the whole question more murky save for the RC who just wants to decapitate anyone who disagrees with them.

To that end, somewhere in one of the Traveller Chronicles there was an article on TEDs which I don't have handy at the moment but may yield some interesting observations...

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by kafka47:
I wonder if the complexity of 1248 would mean that TEDs would be a retreat or have their power increased because of the collabouration and growing interdependence upon Guild support which is what MJD has suggested.

I'd say that you're likely to see a variety of fates for TEDs in that timeframe. Some are going to run out of spare parts and transition to another form of government, one way or the other- they could reform as more traditional military dictatorships, gradually lose their powers as their technological edge disappears and metamorphose into other forms of government, or be overthrown. ("Sir, there's an angry mob outside for you...")

On the other hand, some are going to be able to maintain their hold over their domains, either by trading for the parts they need offworld or by reestablishing some manufacturing capability. Regimes like that could well go on to become thorns in various people's sides, especially if they're receiving offworld support from organizations such as the Guild. The Guild is by no means the only suspect here, especially since I doubt TED governments are unique to the Old Expanses- IMO, they're probably going to be pretty much everywhere with the exception of the Regency.

Then, of course, there will be the ones who get knocked off by offworld entities, including but not limited to the RC. See below for more comments.

Personally, I like the idea of TEDs having a longer life and becoming a thorn in the side of various factions. However, I would want to have a more myriad of forms of TED government which would make the whole question more murky save for the RC who just wants to decapitate anyone who disagrees with them.

I don't know if that's really fair to the RC, or even necessarily true. 1248 might change some or all of this, but my interpretation of the material in Path of Tears has always been that actual decapitation ops by the RC are going to be relatively rare. Sure, there are a lot of possible ones listed, but it's also pretty clear that the RC doesn't have the manpower or inclination to decapitate anyone who annoys them. I don't think it's really accurate to say that they're crusing through the Old Expanses, launching decapitation strikes left and right.

To that end, somewhere in one of the Traveller Chronicles there was an article on TEDs which I don't have handy at the moment but may yield some interesting observations...

That does sound interesting, and I agree that there should be more details of TEDs. For that matter, I'd like to see more on feudal technocracies, or any government that's based on the posession of technology by power groups. As some of the material in PoT raises, one man's TED can be another man's F-tech.

Possible types of TEDs, and their fates:

1) Neo-barbarian/brutalist. The "classic" TED, descended from pre-Collapse military commanders and basically sitting on what was in the unit armory when Virus hit, governing their polities for their own benefit. By 1248, these guys are probably gone, one way or the other, unless they're being propped up. Example: the unlamented government of Vezina.

2) "Smart"- As (1), but also pays attention to the maintainance of his forces, either by trading for parts, salvaging from boneyards, or encouraging local manufacturing. Could theoretically last indefinately as long as they don't get in the way of any larger expanding powers or Vampire fleets. Example: Arturo I of Kide.

3) "Benevolent"- This type of leader uses his technolgical edge to maintain control of the populace, but uses that control to work for the greater good of their people instead of their own gain. These governments could also last a while, provided they can maintain power, and are probably less likely to be actively decapitated by powers like the RC. May join expanding interstellar governments if they believe it is in their best interest. Potential weaknesses include the necessity of selecting a sucessor who also believes in the dictator's goals, or risk becoming a type (1) or (2). Example: the governor of Nex (PoT pg. 141), who uses his position to try to impose reforms on a technophobic and xenophobic populace.

Any others? There are probably more that shade towards F-Tech governments, but I'm too brain-fried to think of them right at the moment.

 

[aramis]

4) Puppet - The TED is the human mouthpiece of a Virus dominated Autofac, one which realises that keeping the materials coming to self repair is only achievable by controlling a human puppet. Similar to a Type 1, except that the computer system of the autofac selects a new leader from the cronies based upon willingness to follow orders. (See also ST:TOS for a couple examples, including Ventrue.)

5) TEO - An oligarchy of tech savvy folks maintaining a tech base, with elite education and probably some form of loyalty assurance devices (Intercranial remote control bombs, etc). The vast majority are allowed to fall to squalor, while the TEO takes what they need of the labor of the commons, in exchange for providing order through harsh but fair security forces with really good stuff. Requires some intact tech base which can be rebuilt without virus.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Aramis:
4) Puppet - The TED is the human mouthpiece of a Virus dominated Autofac, one which realises that keeping the materials coming to self repair is only achievable by controlling a human puppet. Similar to a Type 1, except that the computer system of the autofac selects a new leader from the cronies based upon willingness to follow orders. (See also ST:TOS for a couple examples, including Ventrue.)

4a) Figurehead- The TED's technological edge comes from an offworld agency, who allows him to rule as he likes in exchange for some tribute. The examples we've seen of this have been some Diaspora sector governments in Vampire Fleets who are supported by vampire ships in exchange for tributes of technicians, but an amoral interstellar power could conceivably use this as a sort of mercantilist colonialism on the cheap. Why bother to conquer a planet when you can give the guy in charge some FGMPs and let him sign the trade treaty that gives your merchants exclusive landing rights?

6) Defender. The TED controls some technolgical edge that's necessarily to allow survival on the planet. Again, the examples we've seen have been in Vampire Fleets, where some nations are able to keep an independent existance by virtue of TEDs who control a semi-intact PAD system. Their subjects are likely to support them much more than other TEDs, possibly to the point of mounting a counter-revolution if the TED is toppled and nothing is put in place to provide the protection that he did.

 

[spank]

For TED's to be viable they wouldn't have to retain tech persay, maybe just knowledge. I saw an interesting show on the History channel, about how the Chinese Emporers used acurate predictions of Astronomy to convince people they had the "Mandate of Heaven". This is only one example of how knowledge alone could elevate a dictator. A forword thinking dictator could for example collect taxes in books as well as money.

Another strategy might be to forbid certain activities and knowledge, flying for example. One might also compartentalize knowledge into guilds.

 

[Talby]

Originally posted by spank:
For TED's to be viable they wouldn't have to retain tech persay, maybe just knowledge.

I would agree with this. The belief in a dictator's power due to his ability to understand phenomenon beyond the understanding of the general population might maintain his power long after the relic technology used originally had crumbled into dust. However, the problem with knowledge is that it tends to spread. Even a TED with advanced technological knowledge might eventually find the people s/he rules over to be on equal footing one day.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Depending on your campaign's area of operations, and the number of worlds that still maintain a starport [types E-A], I would say your TED's regime lifespan depnds on how fast your 'recovery' process is going.

With a few Pocket empires [2-6 systems by Hard Times/TNE standards] and interstellar trade now at a crawl [comparitively], your Tech Elevated Dictatorships of old TNE era might not last beyond the founder, or become depending on your recovery era an inheritable institution.

To add to citizen ChaserCaffey's list--your TED who starts his/her own PE from relic tech, but must go on a war footing to acquire more to sustain it--ala Solee.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Depending on your campaign's area of operations, and the number of worlds that still maintain a starport [types E-A], I would say your TED's regime lifespan depnds on how fast your 'recovery' process is going.

With a few Pocket empires [2-6 systems by Hard Times/TNE standards] and interstellar trade now at a crawl [comparitively], your Tech Elevated Dictatorships of old TNE era might not last beyond the founder, or become depending on your recovery era an inheritable institution.

I think a lot of how the Technologically Elevated Dictators/Dictatorships deal with recovery is going to depend on the value of the worlds they're on, and on the character of the individual dictators. If you've got a world that, for one reason or another, a PE can't allow to remain outside of its control (for example, it's Jump-2 away from their homeworld), then the TED probably won't last long. If the TED happens to be especially brutal and bad at administration, his government is more likely to fall on interstellar contact, since there will probably already be resistance movements for the PE to contact, making expansion easier. Plus, if any especially obnoxious dictators run into the RC, they might just get knocked over on principle.

On the other hand, a smart and canny TED might be able to make a deal with an amoral pocket empire to become a client state, receiving technology to maintain his power in return for becoming at least a nominal part of the PE- in effect, the TED becomes a "marquis", guaranteeing taxes and the security of his system in exchange for a free hand on his world. Such externally supported dictatorships might last indefinately. Then too, a TED on an out of the way world that nobody really cares about probably won't be affected as much by recovery.

As for the whole tech vs. knowledge idea- I'd say it depended on how far the inhabitants of the planet had regressed in general. The power of most TEDs seems to be based on their superior firepower rather than their understanding of any scientific principles- bear in mind that most of them were descended from military commanders, not scientists. Thus, it seems likely that for a good number of them, their power would run out when the tech did. On the other hand, it's possible to imagine a dictator who had a monopoly on some technology necessary for survival on a world, or who managed a transition when the tech ran out to a more conventional dictatorship, or even managed to set up a religion to justify his rule, and those might well last after the last of the relics were gone.

Hmmm, maybe another list entry: The Mystic TED, who creates a religion around his activities, encouraging the view of technology as forbidden knowledge and eventually ruling more through intimidation than through actual exercise of his firepower. Assuming no offworld intervention, if the job's done right that could last indefinately.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:

I think a lot of how the Technologically Elevated Dictators/Dictatorships deal with recovery is going to depend on the value of the worlds they're on, and on the character of the individual dictators. If you've got a world that, for one reason or another, a PE can't allow to remain outside of its control (for example, it's Jump-2 away from their homeworld), then the TED probably won't last long. If the TED happens to be especially brutal and bad at administration, his government is more likely to fall on interstellar contact, since there will probably already be resistance movements for the PE to contact, making expansion easier. Plus, if any especially obnoxious dictators run into the RC, they might just get knocked over on principle.

"Location, location, location!"--Hollywood director's lament.

On the other hand, a smart and canny TED might be able to make a deal with an amoral pocket empire to become a client state, receiving technology to maintain his power in return for becoming at least a nominal part of the PE- in effect, the TED becomes a "marquis", guaranteeing taxes and the security of his system in exchange for a free hand on his world. Such externally supported dictatorships might last indefinately.

Such was me thesis for Solee's mini-ramshackle empire IM-TNE-U. Prop up Teddy. and voila, guarantee him trade items!


Then too, a TED on an out of the way world that nobody really cares about probably won't be affected as much by recovery.

As for the whole tech vs. knowledge idea- I'd say it depended on how far the inhabitants of the planet had regressed in general. The power of most TEDs seems to be based on their superior firepower rather than their understanding of any scientific principles- bear in mind that most of them were descended from military commanders, not scientists. Thus, it seems likely that for a good number of them, their power would run out when the tech did. On the other hand, it's possible to imagine a dictator who had a monopoly on some technology necessary for survival on a world, or who managed a transition when the tech ran out to a more conventional dictatorship, or even managed to set up a religion to justify his rule, and those might well last after the last of the relics were gone.

Hmmm, maybe another list entry: The Mystic TED, who creates a religion around his activities, encouraging the view of technology as forbidden knowledge and eventually ruling more through intimidation than through actual exercise of his firepower. Assuming no offworld intervention, if the job's done right that could last indefinately. [/QUOTE]
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Definitely our boy the Mystic techno Priest dictator [as opposed to his Luddite opposite!]

Good shtuff CC!

SLainte!

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Such was me thesis for Solee's mini-ramshackle empire IM-TNE-U. Prop up Teddy. and voila, guarantee him trade items!

And if I were being heretical, I'd probably point out that more than a few 3I Marquis originally got their titles that way at the end of the Long Night. But I wouldn't do that.

Definitely our boy the Mystic techno Priest dictator [as opposed to his Luddite opposite!]

Good shtuff CC!

SLainte!

Thanks, Liam. And welcome home, by the way.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
[qb] [snip]

And if I were being heretical, I'd probably point out that more than a few 3I Marquis originally got their titles that way at the end of the Long Night. But I wouldn't do that.

[snip]

Thanks, Liam. And welcome home, by the way.

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Your welcome. Heretical..no lad--historical!
And thank you, its Good to be back!

Have a geat game day!