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The bring back the LBBs as T5 Organization

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prometheus
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Prometheus

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First I don't want to take anything away from T20. I think it is great and will bring more people into the Traveller experience that has brought us all here together. I personally own both the T20 and the CT versions. But!, I want to see the return of CT as T5 and in the little black book form or a hard bound complied size (example take the reprint of book 0-8[T5 version of course] and harbound it LBB size. I actually have a text book from college that I have kept for reference when I try to write. It is called, ironically, the "Little brown Book" and it is about the same dimension as the LBBs, but 800 pages thicker). So I am founding the Bring back the LBBs T5 association.

Anybody else want to sign on?

Spiff: Member #000001 (I am member and a client)
 
As long as your including the enhanced character generation books, ie Books 4-7, or the MT character generation sequences [which are almost the same as the CT stuff], then I'm in.

If its only books 1-3, I'll cheer for you from the sidelines.
 
well thats two! Plop is member #00002 And yes enhanced character generation is in my demand for brining back the LBBs in a T5 Version!
 
"So many positive waves, what can go wrong. Your on, baby!"--Oddball

Shall we call it the CT5. LBBT5 is a bit of a mouthfull.

You can get a good chant started with CT5.

CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5! CT5!
 
First I love the LBB's...
Having said that we arn't in the 1970's anymore...
Printing is easier and cheaper so if you do finish T-5 please do them in a perfect bound 8.5"X 11" format. Basically fix the T-4 problems and I'd be happy... no XXX# or awful editing mistakes. I was even happy with the Mileiu 0 setting. Simplify FF&S and include it with a Starships book. Do one equipment catalog (like T4) Please try and keep it to three or four core books and make the game playable with the main core book. I have enough back problems as it is... oh and if your looking for a writer...
!
 
8.5x11 format is always a problem. It takes up too much room on the table top, it is awkawrd to hold in one hand and nearly impossible to hide behind a referees shield. And normal book-binding will not lie flat. I keep hearing about "perfect binding", but I ain't seen it.

IMHO, everything necesary for one aspect of a game should fit nicely into a 64 page LBB. If you need more than that you need to rewrite or reorganize. I'll grant you two LBB for extended character generation (one merchant/civilian/scout, one Naval/Marine/Army).
1 LBB for combat & encounters
1 LBB for technical architecture & equipment
1 LBB for starships & vehicles
1 LBB for system generation & trade

1 LBB for a base melieu and a started adventure

More than six (the Adventure doesn't count) or any fatter than 400 8.5x5.5 pages and you need to write more concisely or spin off supplements.
 
I'm in too! Just publish a few separate adventures (whether singly or in groups doesn't matter) to get groups started.
 
I'm in.

The LBBs were the perfect format for a number of reasons:

a) Easier fit on bookshelf or backpack.

b) Easy to find information on a page - e.g. you could tell the "UPP decoder" page by sight.

c) Perfect size to hide behind screen.

d) They were distinctive. You saw one of these puppies and you knew it was Traveller.

Just tart up the MT rules a bit and you're done.

thom
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
8.5x11 format is always a problem. It takes up too much room on the table top, it is awkawrd to hold in one hand and nearly impossible to hide behind a referees shield. And normal book-binding will not lie flat. I keep hearing about "perfect binding", but I ain't seen it.
Of course, all those companies that have been publishing 8.5"x11" RPG books since the 1970s has clearly got it wrong with their format... :rolleyes:

From what I understand, smaller books are actually less cost-effective to print. SJG has experimented with 16 pagers, 32 pagers, 64 pagers, and none of them have really taken off. I suspect the 8.5"x11" format has won over because it's the most cost-effective to produce.

That, and print standards have gone up massively since the LBBs were released. Even small press companies can churn out much better looking books than the LBBs today.

I'm firmly in the "if you must have a T5 then at least think about it from a practical, real-world perspective first" camp.
file_28.gif
 
Count me in as a member (#000007?) of the Bring Back the LBBs T5 Association. MT-equivalent rules printed in 5-6 64pp LBBs and/or 1 320-384pp hardbound LBB would suit me perfectly. Shall I bump Lucas Digital's venerable "T5 in a box -- artist's impression" thread to get everybody all fired up again?
 
Originally posted by T. Foster:
Count me in as a member (#000007?) of the Bring Back the LBBs T5 Association. MT-equivalent rules printed in 5-6 64pp LBBs and/or 1 320-384pp hardbound LBB would suit me perfectly. Shall I bump Lucas Digital's venerable "T5 in a box -- artist's impression" thread to get everybody all fired up again?
Couldn't agree more! (on all counts, no less)

And thanks for bumping the "artistic impressions" thread; I hadn't seen it before.
 
From what I understand, smaller books are actually less cost-effective to print. SJG has experimented with 16 pagers, 32 pagers, 64 pagers, and none of them have really taken off. I suspect the 8.5"x11" format has won over because it's the most cost-effective to produce.[/QB]
Actually there is a difference (in terms of cost) between page count (i.e., 32,64 or 128+) and physical size 8.5x11(letter). Letter is the American standard and thus is always cheaper for a print company to deal with because it is common and they are already setup for it. Going to another size, is actually more expensive for this reason, LBB size (half-letter) isn't that bad because its just 8.5 x 11 landscape, BUT, if you make a thick book - more than say 64 pages - you'll need to cut and bind the paper - this is an expense. Now adding more pages would actually be cheaper (within reason) than going to a funky page size like 9x12 .

That, and print standards have gone up massively since the LBBs were released. Even small press companies can churn out much better looking books than the LBBs today.[/QB]
Very true. You can produce better looking material off your computer and laserprinter.

I'm firmly in the "if you must have a T5 then at least think about it from a practical, real-world perspective first" camp.
file_28.gif
[/QB]
I agree. 8.5x11, color with good art and no black only covers (marketing purposes). That's the real world. More people than just Traveller fans will have to buy the book to make it a success. It is NOT 1980. No matter how much you might want it to be.
:D

-S.
:cool:
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Of course, all those companies that have been publishing 8.5"x11" RPG books since the 1970s has clearly got it wrong with their format... :rolleyes:
Most of the successful 8.5x11 books have been D&D books. I know you can't belive they got everything right, or you wouldn't be posting here. And all the other games companies have done so well with 8.5x11 with pretty pictures thid decade, how many are still in business?

I agree. 8.5x11, color with good art and no black only covers (marketing purposes). That's the real world. More people than just Traveller fans will have to buy the book to make it a success. It is NOT 1980. No matter how much you might want it to be.
What successful real-world model do you imagine you are following?

The times are more like 1975 than 1990. Just because the 1990 marketing model is newer and more familiar to many of you does not mean that it is more appropriate.

Bright, colorful, large format books justify a higher price tag and allow sloppy rules and editing. The days when hords of pimply adolescents would buy bad games with attractive boxes is over. Nowadays they buy video games with their allowances or the money they make sweeping the floor at BK. RPGs should be marketed at dedicated gamers (usually dirt-poor college students and geeks), a much smaller and more sophisticated audience.

A big,bright T5 will be up against T20 and the other D20 clones in a tight market. It makes more sense to write concisely, keep production costs and the cover price low and build a new market.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I agree. 8.5x11, color with good art and no black only covers (marketing purposes). That's the real world. More people than just Traveller fans will have to buy the book to make it a success. It is NOT 1980. No matter how much you might want it to be.
What successful real-world model do you imagine you are following?

...

A big,bright T5 will be up against T20 and the other D20 clones in a tight market. It makes more sense to write concisely, keep production costs and the cover price low and build a new market.
</font>[/QUOTE]Uncle Bob, I agree with you. I'd only add that the whole purpose of cover art in the marketplace is to distinguish your product and to stop those roving eyes when they see your product on the shelf.

The black-cover format accomplishes this.

In the current RPG marketplace, with its glut of gee-whiz brightly coloured covers featuring adventurers/monsters rendered in the style of the moment, the elegance of the LBB would draw attention like a black hole draws stars.

thom
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Of course, all those companies that have been publishing 8.5"x11" RPG books since the 1970s has clearly got it wrong with their format... :rolleyes:
Most of the successful 8.5x11 books have been D&D books. I know you can't belive they got everything right, or you wouldn't be posting here. And all the other games companies have done so well with 8.5x11 with pretty pictures thid decade, how many are still in business?</font>[/QUOTE]*blink, blink*
(EDG measures the size of some of the books on his numerous shelves full of RPGs, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Yep, all 8.5"x11". Returns to computer)

Well, let's see. There's the D&D books (all of 'em, since the 70s). Then there's MT, TNE, T4, T20, all the GURPS sourcebooks, Heavy Gear, Godlike, plus a gazillion different RPGs... all done in 8.5"x11" format. In fact, you go to an RPG store, pretty much every single RPG on the shelves (and in the boxes) is in 8.5"x11" format too. The only major exceptions I can think of are Eden's Witchcraft/Zombie/Ape games, WW's Aeon Continuum series, GoO's BESM games, and Nobilis.

Now, you want companies that have survived over the past couple of decades producing books of that format? Well, there's SJG, DP9, WotC/TSR, White Wolf, Chaosium... admittedly some companies have disappeared over the years, but there are still a few biggies still around.

So if you think that 8.5"x11" format isn't selling, you've either not been to an RPG store in about 25 years, or you're in some serious denial! :rolleyes: :D

What successful real-world model do you imagine you are following?

The times are more like 1975 than 1990. Just because the 1990 marketing model is newer and more familiar to many of you does not mean that it is more appropriate.
Maybe, maybe not. But like it or not, that's what we've got. If you want to survive in the current market, you have to adapt to it and work by its rules.

Bright, colorful, large format books justify a higher price tag and allow sloppy rules and editing.
Oh man, I don't even know where to begin here! You have to be joking, right? You don't *really* believe this do you?? Well, assuming you are serious...

Bigger hardback books with colour pages are more expensive, yes. They're not incredibly necessary, though people do still pick them up - probably because they pay about that much for a video game, and RPGs can arguably give more long-term value for money. All that's an entirely separate argument though.
However, I must take issue with your claim that it "allows sloppy rules and editing". That doesn't tally at all. Admittedly T20 is a big book, does contain some errors, and could certainly have done with a bit more more checking before being released, but it's not too bad really. It's a very rare RPG that doesn't require some post-release fixing anyway. Other "big books" have certainly not been full of sloppy rules and editing though. Hogshead's "Nobilis" is a *massive* book, and is pretty damn near perfect. Eden's "Buffy" RPG is an expensive full-colour hardback and the rules work fine and everything's in its right place. SJG's "Transhuman Space" full colour hardback is a bit expensive, but is very well written and laid out with very few errors in it. At the other extreme, there's things like T4 which were full of holes, and very sloppily edited - and weren't particularly big either.
You're making an assertion that simply isn't necessarily true. You're suggesting that bigger books are badly written and badly edited - when there is no direct link at all between such parameters. More to the point - small, cheap books are at least just as likely (if not more so) to contain sloppy editing, rules and layout.

The days when hords of pimply adolescents would buy bad games with attractive boxes is over.
...which is exactly why the LBBs would never sell today. What, does this shock you? The LBBs were tiny little books with very little (if any) artwork, extremely basic layout, that came in a vaguely attractive (if you're into basic design) box.
Today's gamers are certainly more demanding than when the LBBs originally came out, because the production standards have got a LOT higher since the 70s. They expect better editing, better layout, decent art, as well as decent rules and setting - otherwise it isn't going to catch their eye. Unfortunately, the look of the product is what tends to catch people's eyes on the shelves, but there you go.

RPGs should be marketed at dedicated gamers (usually dirt-poor college students and geeks), a much smaller and more sophisticated audience.
We spent the past 25 years or so climbing out of the tiny little niche that we were relegated to, and you're espousing a return to those days?! Well, fine, you can carry on living in the 70s, but I think you'll find the vast majority of long-term gamers are MUCH happier today with the RPG market than they were in the 70s. There's a much larger variety of games around today, the industry has grown and evolved a great deal since then.

A big,bright T5 will be up against T20 and the other D20 clones in a tight market. It makes more sense to write concisely, keep production costs and the cover price low and build a new market.
Well, sure, if you want to turn Traveller into a one-man-and-his-garage affair then that's great. But that stuff won't sell at all today - at least physically. It might sell as PDFs, because that's where this sort of thing is going nowadays. But it certainly won't grab lots of people and stand out and be bought by anyone except a very small number of die-hard fans (like yourself, I imagine), and probably not in anywhere near enough numbers to put it in the black.

I'd sum up, but I can't think of anything to say other than "I didn't think people thought like this anymore". :(
 
wow.. I am over awed...
by the reposnse! I as always am impressed with uncle bob and many of the other wiser and more worldly views presented. I agree that art, graphics and well written rules will make a product sell. I have two questions does size of the book matter so much? And like Lucas digital example ( beautiful composition I may add makes the mouth water and the wallet tremble)I would sink my cash in for it. How much would you pay for a T5 version of traveller?
I paid $36.00 for my copy of the Little Brown Book (
file_22.gif
)in 1998 for my Rhetroic class at Hampden-Sydney College which was the same size as the LBB(ironic isn't it, and it had 800 Pages. I have to admit that I am not the expert on printing(far from it), but I always like well bound books..(side note I have the british infantry officers field guide from 1805 in my small and meger antique book collection). Cost analysis is great on production, but I think the first thing that needs to occur is: Who has the draft rules for T5?, How do we get them(author) off the dime to move to playtest and maybe publish?

Further the Memebership for the LBB CT5 Organiztion & Glorification Society stands as
00001-spiff (what a dork he is!)
00002-Plop 101 "the man the myth"
00003- Raptor "the no3 man"
00004- open for someone to take?
00005- Jame "way to jump in" Hooah!
00006- Valerian "your majesty"
00007- T Foster "glad to have you"

group political commissar suggests-
"Comrades, please post your member number as part of your signature if you would."

And if some one can post the lucas digital pic I would be grateful.Now all we need is a theme song and a catchy slogan!

Anyway
cheers
 
I remember when this topic was debated last year, only then its major focus was on T20. At the time I was in the hardcover with a great cover painting camp. Then I saw the ugly computer clip art that they commissioned for the cover and now I fully support the black cover LBB format. I even go as far as to say they should use the CT interior layout as well (typeset and all). Count me in for the T5 LBB club! (Although if they reprint MEGATRAVELLER, I'd love to see that as an all inclusive hardcover! :D )
 
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