Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Of course, all those companies that have been publishing 8.5"x11" RPG books since the 1970s has clearly got it wrong with their format...
Most of the successful 8.5x11 books have been D&D books. I know you can't belive they got everything right, or you wouldn't be posting here. And all the other games companies have done so well with 8.5x11 with pretty pictures thid decade, how many are still in business?</font>[/QUOTE]*blink, blink*
(EDG measures the size of some of the books on his numerous shelves full of RPGs, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Yep, all 8.5"x11". Returns to computer)
Well, let's see. There's the D&D books (all of 'em, since the 70s). Then there's MT, TNE, T4, T20, all the GURPS sourcebooks, Heavy Gear, Godlike, plus a gazillion different RPGs... all done in 8.5"x11" format. In fact, you go to an RPG store, pretty much every single RPG on the shelves (and in the boxes) is in 8.5"x11" format too. The only major exceptions I can think of are Eden's Witchcraft/Zombie/Ape games, WW's Aeon Continuum series, GoO's BESM games, and Nobilis.
Now, you want companies that have survived over the past couple of decades producing books of that format? Well, there's SJG, DP9, WotC/TSR, White Wolf, Chaosium... admittedly some companies have disappeared over the years, but there are still a few biggies still around.
So if you think that 8.5"x11" format isn't selling, you've either not been to an RPG store in about 25 years, or you're in some serious denial!
What successful real-world model do you imagine you are following?
The times are more like 1975 than 1990. Just because the 1990 marketing model is newer and more familiar to many of you does not mean that it is more appropriate.
Maybe, maybe not. But like it or not, that's what we've got. If you want to survive in the current market, you have to adapt to it and work by its rules.
Bright, colorful, large format books justify a higher price tag and allow sloppy rules and editing.
Oh man, I don't even know where to begin here! You have to be joking, right? You don't *really* believe this do you?? Well, assuming you are serious...
Bigger hardback books with colour pages are more expensive, yes. They're not incredibly necessary, though people do still pick them up - probably because they pay about that much for a video game, and RPGs can arguably give more long-term value for money. All that's an entirely separate argument though.
However, I must take issue with your claim that it "allows sloppy rules and editing". That doesn't tally at all. Admittedly T20 is a big book, does contain some errors, and could certainly have done with a bit more more checking before being released, but it's not too bad really. It's a very rare RPG that doesn't require some post-release fixing anyway. Other "big books" have certainly not been full of sloppy rules and editing though. Hogshead's "Nobilis" is a *massive* book, and is pretty damn near perfect. Eden's "Buffy" RPG is an expensive full-colour hardback and the rules work fine and everything's in its right place. SJG's "Transhuman Space" full colour hardback is a bit expensive, but is very well written and laid out with very few errors in it. At the other extreme, there's things like T4 which were full of holes, and very sloppily edited - and weren't particularly big either.
You're making an assertion that simply isn't necessarily true. You're suggesting that bigger books are badly written and badly edited - when there is no direct link at all between such parameters. More to the point - small, cheap books are
at least just as likely (if not more so) to contain sloppy editing, rules and layout.
The days when hords of pimply adolescents would buy bad games with attractive boxes is over.
...which is exactly why the LBBs would never sell today. What, does this shock you? The LBBs were tiny little books with very little (if any) artwork, extremely basic layout, that came in a vaguely attractive (if you're into basic design) box.
Today's gamers are certainly more demanding than when the LBBs originally came out, because the production standards have got a LOT higher since the 70s. They expect better editing, better layout, decent art, as well as decent rules and setting - otherwise it isn't going to catch their eye. Unfortunately, the look of the product is what tends to catch people's eyes on the shelves, but there you go.
RPGs should be marketed at dedicated gamers (usually dirt-poor college students and geeks), a much smaller and more sophisticated audience.
We spent the past 25 years or so climbing out of the tiny little niche that we were relegated to, and you're espousing a return to those days?! Well, fine, you can carry on living in the 70s, but I think you'll find the vast majority of long-term gamers are MUCH happier today with the RPG market than they were in the 70s. There's a much larger variety of games around today, the industry has grown and evolved a great deal since then.
A big,bright T5 will be up against T20 and the other D20 clones in a tight market. It makes more sense to write concisely, keep production costs and the cover price low and build a new market.
Well, sure, if you want to turn Traveller into a one-man-and-his-garage affair then that's great. But that stuff won't sell at all today - at least physically. It might sell as PDFs, because that's where this sort of thing is going nowadays. But it certainly won't grab lots of people and stand out and be bought by anyone except a very small number of die-hard fans (like yourself, I imagine), and probably not in anywhere near enough numbers to put it in the black.
I'd sum up, but I can't think of anything to say other than "I didn't think people thought like this anymore".
