Wounds oppose to hit points

[sekalo]

I was playing a little Savage Worlds over the weekend, and it struck me funny that we were doing Wound Levels back in the late 80s with WEG Star Wars d6. Then I started thinking - It would be really nice to have a simple wound level mechanic for Classic Traveller when you wanted to keep it as a miniature game.

Has anyone port a dice roll mechanic like the Toughness role over mechanic from Savage Worlds or WEG Star Wars d6? I tried to come up with something based on the Traveller END value; however, I am not sure what is a good starting point for the 'thresholds' over END.

for example from WEG Star Wars D6 1st edition

DR < SR   | stun
DR >= SR  | wound
DR > 2xSR | incapacitate
DR > 3xSR | mortal Wound

Since I have no clue how to do this, would I just base my roles off (7), the average of 2d6? I did not want to start adding dice to the damage mechanic, so I was thinking a combat table based upon 2d6 roles.

This would provide less book keeping for miniatures, and could use color tokens (green or blue, yellow, red, black) on a hex map next to the miniatures.

 

[aramis]

I was playing a little Savage Worlds over the weekend, and it struck me funny that we were doing Wound Levels back in the late 80s with WEG Star Wars d6. Then I started thinking - It would be really nice to have a simple wound level mechanic for Classic Traveller when you wanted to keep it as a miniature game.

Has anyone port a dice roll mechanic like the Toughness role over mechanic from Savage Worlds or WEG Star Wars d6? I tried to come up with something based on the Traveller END value; however, I am not sure what is a good starting point for the 'thresholds' over END.

for example from WEG Star Wars D6 1st edition

DR < SR   | stun
DR >= SR  | wound
DR > 2xSR | incapacitate
DR > 3xSR | mortal Wound

Since I have no clue how to do this, would I just base my roles off (7), the average of 2d6? I did not want to start adding dice to the damage mechanic, so I was thinking a combat table based upon 2d6 roles.

This would provide less book keeping for miniatures, and could use color tokens (green or blue, yellow, red, black) on a hex map next to the miniatures.

Striker/AHL use 4 wound states: unhurt, light wound, serious wound, dead.

 

[kilemall]

Striker/AHL use 4 wound states: unhurt, light wound, serious wound, dead.

And of course Striker was intended as a minis game. I want to say mid 1980s.

 

[mike wightman]

Just an addendum to that
For AHL
light wounds - you can take an unlimited number, but roll 1d each time you are wounded - on a 6 you are unconscious

every turn roll 1d, on a 6 you regain consciousness.

serious wound - you can take one serious wound and fall unconscious for the rest of the combat. A second serious wound kills you.

For Striker

A light wound on a recruit removes him from play immediately.
A light wound on a regular allows him to remain in play to a limited extent. All of his fires are conducted with a DM of -1 and he may not move. If part of a fire team, he is removed from play as soon as the fire team moves. He is also removed if he receives a second light wound.
A light wound on a veteran allows him to continue functioning with a DM of -1 on all fires; a second light wound gives him an additional DM of -1 and otherwise affects him in the same way as the first light wound on a regular. A third light wound removes him from play.
A light wound on an elite allows him to continue functioning with a DM of -1 to all fire. An elite may suffer an unlimited number of light wounds and continue functioning for purposes of the game, but each wound causes an additional DM of -1 for firing.

 

[sekalo]

I never played either of these games; however, do you find if you wanted to make combat a little more tactical with hex maps, and run like a game of chess or miniature game - does the wound levels add or buys anything? I been fiddling with wound levels for something 'rules light' with (attack, wound save) 40k mechanics, but wanted to see if wound levels add anything or streamline anything. For example: giving everyone the same wound levels like in Savage Worlds, and what appears to be in AHL does streamline the question of "how many hit points"; however, the rule of 2d6 from the three attributes has that covered in Classic Traveller.

 

[whartung]

I never played either of these games; however, do you find if you wanted to make combat a little more tactical with hex maps, and run like a game of chess or miniature game - does the wound levels add or buys anything?

It lowers bookeeping.

It's effectively making the game more lethal (from a scenario POV). For example, the Serious Wound effectively knocks your character out of the game. Light wounds are bothersome, but, save for the periods of unconsciousness, the characters are no worse for wear.

These affects are designed to work better with larger numbers of combatants. 10-20 on a side, vs small parties with detailed damage tracking ala stock Traveller.

It's also designed to empower "powerful" characters to more readily take out "mooks" more easily for a more cinematic feel, with out all the counters and pencil pushing.

 

[sekalo]

I been running my games with more roleplaying and breaking them up to be like comic issues or the old campy movie serials like Commando Cody and the battle or fight is the climax for the game session. Due to the latter, I am looking for rules light that i can play on a hex grid, but without different rules, or established character creation rules.

I currently use a water down version of GURPS for this, but I would much rather have something like 2d6 traveller porting, or now that i found WH40K. What I like about using a single dice, is if they get multiple attacks, and saves - which can save time.

Hit Points are not a problem when using Traveller rules since the 3 attributes lets you know the condition; however, I was just brainstorming after I played a quick game of Star Wars d6, that it might be interesting to try to use the 2d6 Traveller stats and make the same type of wound mechanic. But I was not away of games called AHL or Striker, since I came to Traveller in the early 90s.

I have to look into AHL and Striker, since I know nothing of these games.

Thank you.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is a suggested way to do it

Sum Str+End+Dex. Divide the total by 6 and round up. That is the number of light wounds you can take as a maximum

 

[kilemall]

I been running my games with more roleplaying and breaking them up to be like comic issues or the old campy movie serials like Commando Cody and the battle or fight is the climax for the game session. Due to the latter, I am looking for rules light that i can play on a hex grid, but without different rules, or established character creation rules.

I currently use a water down version of GURPS for this, but I would much rather have something like 2d6 traveller porting, or now that i found WH40K. What I like about using a single dice, is if they get multiple attacks, and saves - which can save time.

Hit Points are not a problem when using Traveller rules since the 3 attributes lets you know the condition; however, I was just brainstorming after I played a quick game of Star Wars d6, that it might be interesting to try to use the 2d6 Traveller stats and make the same type of wound mechanic. But I was not away of games called AHL or Striker, since I came to Traveller in the early 90s.

I have to look into AHL and Striker, since I know nothing of these games.

Thank you.

Used to be able to get FFE CDROMs/USB stick from Miller, the CT package included related games PDFs like the mentioned ones.

Don’t know about Mongoose now.

While at it, take a look at Snapshot, it was designed for fast combat aboard ships. It has standard Traveller deck plans so squares, but shouldn’t be hard to use in hex.

 

[whartung]

I dunno if I'd call AHL "rule light", since it has a bunch of rules about action points, aiming, opportunity fire, stuff like that. Plus all the armor and penetration rules.

Save for perhaps the cost of moving diagonally (which tends to be more expensive on a square grid system, I don't recall if AHL charges more or not), any of the systems should port to a hex grid without issue. Range is range, cover is cover. Just get rid of any diagonal costs, make each hex cost "1".

 

[aramis]

I never played either of these games; however, do you find if you wanted to make combat a little more tactical with hex maps, and run like a game of chess or miniature game - does the wound levels add or buys anything? I been fiddling with wound levels for something 'rules light' with (attack, wound save) 40k mechanics, but wanted to see if wound levels add anything or streamline anything. For example: giving everyone the same wound levels like in Savage Worlds, and what appears to be in AHL does streamline the question of "how many hit points"; however, the rule of 2d6 from the three attributes has that covered in Classic Traveller.

The primary benefit of AHL and Striker as a combat system is that of simplicity, allowing for larger fights, and the abilty to use tokens for damage (even if not included.)

Item	CT Bk1	Snapshot	AHL	Striker
Armor Effect	reduces to hit roll	reduces to-hit roll	Reduces Damage	Reduces Damage
Attribute Adjustment	Bk1/Bk4/S4 tables	Includes the Bk1/Bk4 tables	conversions: Bk1/Bk4 tables	conversions: Bk1/Bk4 tables
To Hit Roll	2d6 for 8+	2d6 for 8+	2d6 for 8+/11+/12+ by range	2d6 for 8+/11+/12+ by range
Range model	to hit Modifiers variable by weapon	to hit Modifiers variable by weapon	weapon has effective and long ranges, setting TH target number	weapon has effective and long ranges, setting TH target number
Movement	1-3 25m bands	squares by Action Points	Squares by action points	specified distance by unit
Vehicle combat?	No	No	No	Yes
Animals	Yes	not as such, but CT ones can be used	A few examples in adventures	No.
Starship Weapons effects	Not vs people	No	No	Yes, but mathy
Wound Model	Attribute Loss	Attribute Loss	wound levels (light, severe, dead)	wound levels (light, severe, dead)
Damage Rolls	varies by weapon	Varies by weapon	2d6+Pen-AV, lookup.	2d6+Pen-AV, lookup,

It's not very cut and dried which is better, overall, but GDW left the choice to the Referee...
Note that to hit rolls over needed do not modify damage in any of the four.
Note also: the AP systems for Snapshot and AHL are not the same.
The Starship weapons: only striker allows shooting character models with ship weapons... usually it's enough to instakill.

For me, the decision was made the moment I found the design sequences in Striker. I didn't like the default wounds, nor was I a fan of the 3d/6d conversion in Striker...
I wound up using...

Roll	≤ 3	4-5	6-7	8-9	10-11	12-13	14-15	16-17
AHL off.	no effect	light	light	serious	serious	dead	dead	dead
My HR damage to atts	0	1d6	3d6	5d6	7d6	9d6	11d6	13d6

I also modified penetration for excess on the to hit: nat 12: +1, hit by >3, +1 by >7, +2. And explosives, instead of 1 step up, +4 to pen if 2d6+Pen-AV >3
I later divided and went to (2d6+Pen-(AV+4))d6.wasn't worth it.

 

[kilemall]

I went a different direction, Striker but with a custom damage matrix that determined half damage on weapon vs armor and half on hit location, then used the str/dex/end coupled with hit severity to describe wounds in detail for the medical game and allow differing armor on chest vs head and extremities.

Not OP direction so I won’t post the whole thing, but just an example of how flexible it is as a base line rule set for modification.

One other thought, you could go with the animal damage system, x/y where x is damage to incapacitation and the second to death.

Maybe go STR+DEX for the first number and END for the second.

Or for extra style go x/y/z. X would be STR and implement first blood, first hit equals or exceeds knocks character out. Y would be DEX, when both X and Y are zeroed the character is unconscious and critical condition. Z is END and death if zeroed.

 

[kaladorn]

I was playing a little Savage Worlds over the weekend, and it struck me funny that we were doing Wound Levels back in the late 80s with WEG Star Wars d6. Then I started thinking - It would be really nice to have a simple wound level mechanic for Classic Traveller when you wanted to keep it as a miniature game.

Has anyone port a dice roll mechanic like the Toughness role over mechanic from Savage Worlds or WEG Star Wars d6? I tried to come up with something based on the Traveller END value; however, I am not sure what is a good starting point for the 'thresholds' over END.

for example from WEG Star Wars D6 1st edition

DR < SR   | stun
DR >= SR  | wound
DR > 2xSR | incapacitate
DR > 3xSR | mortal Wound

Since I have no clue how to do this, would I just base my roles off (7), the average of 2d6? I did not want to start adding dice to the damage mechanic, so I was thinking a combat table based upon 2d6 roles.

This would provide less book keeping for miniatures, and could use color tokens (green or blue, yellow, red, black) on a hex map next to the miniatures.

Look for BITS (British Isles Traveller Something) booklet At Close Quarters. It's like Mayday/AHL but better for actually have players versus just a combat game. It was written or co-written with the lad that did GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces (Doug Berry). It's a good version of a player-friendly small battle system for use in boarding actions.

 

[sekalo]

This is great stuff.... thank you so much.

 

[Tobias]

I been running my games with more roleplaying and breaking them up to be like comic issues or the old campy movie serials like Commando Cody and the battle or fight is the climax for the game session. Due to the latter, I am looking for rules light that i can play on a hex grid, but without different rules, or established character creation rules.

I currently use a water down version of GURPS for this, but I would much rather have something like 2d6 traveller porting, or now that i found WH40K. What I like about using a single dice, is if they get multiple attacks, and saves - which can save time.

Hit Points are not a problem when using Traveller rules since the 3 attributes lets you know the condition; however, I was just brainstorming after I played a quick game of Star Wars d6, that it might be interesting to try to use the 2d6 Traveller stats and make the same type of wound mechanic. But I was not away of games called AHL or Striker, since I came to Traveller in the early 90s.

I have to look into AHL and Striker, since I know nothing of these games.

Thank you.

AHL is available on drivethrurpg; as kilemall said, it is/was also part of the CT CD-Rom/USB stick collection available from farfuture.net.

Its damage system is actually more compatible with Book 1's than it would appear on the surface. Book 1 converts characteristic damage to minor wounds (may or may not also be unconscious) and serious wounds (and death) for purposes of healing. This maps well to AHL's light wound, serious wound and death results.

My major problem with AHL's damage system (which is the same as Striker's, just with different numerical values for weapon penetration and armor) was that wearing even relatively light armor made it impossible to kill an opponent.
I solved this by applying a net negative result from the penetration - armor comparison to the to hit roll rather than the damage table roll. This means that with any lethal weapon you have at least a remote chance for a fatal result, but against heavier armor your chances of scoring a penetrating hit in the first place are progressively reduced.
Essentially, this combines the two armor paradigms outlined by aramis above, incorporating both damage reduction and hit deflection aspects.

Another niggle you might have (it doesn't bother me, personally) is that damage capacity does not take characteristics into account. Wounds affect all (human or similar) characters equally.

Finally, as aramis said, AHL does not have a complete damage system for animals, only some examples in the scenarios. Short of redesigning the damage system for animals, a quick solution would be to convert light, serious and death results back to dice (e.g. 1D, 3D, 6D respectively) or flat damage points (e.g. 3, 10, 20 respectively) for animals.

With these two, I consider the AHL combat system to be the best for CT. Its firing and damage mechanics can also be fairly seamlessly joined with Book 1's general initiative and turn order system. I have in fact designed a complete overhaul for achieving the same, older versions of which can be found in this forum.

 

[infojunky]

Striker/AHL use 4 wound states: unhurt, light wound, serious wound, dead.

Missed one, AHL has Stunned in Melee combat resolution. I have penciled it in as a play-test idea, but haven't really tried it out.

 

[infojunky]

My major problem with AHL's damage system (which is the same as Striker's, just with different numerical values for weapon penetration and armor) was that wearing even relatively light armor made it impossible to kill an opponent.

I have included "effect" in my games for years, +1 pen per 2 points rolled over the required hit roll.

 

[Rupert]

MegaTraveller gave double damage per 2+ over the required hit number, and guaranteed minimum damage regardless of armour of 1 point at 2+, doubling with each extra +2. A good shot with a gauss rifle or ACR wouldn't be killing someone in battledress with one attack, but they could definitely make them question the wisdom of having got out of bed that morning.

 

[aramis]

MegaTraveller gave double damage per 2+ over the required hit number, and guaranteed minimum damage regardless of armour of 1 point at 2+, doubling with each extra +2. A good shot with a gauss rifle or ACR wouldn't be killing someone in battledress with one attack, but they could definitely make them question the wisdom of having got out of bed that morning.

A good shot with a Gauss Rifle can drop a Trepida... unless using the DGP MT Ref's Screen errata to the RM...

 

[Rupert]

Well, using the RAW is written it'd be a 'zero penetration' result, and the text only lists damage for three steps (i.e. 4 points), and 4 points of structure damage won't stop a Trepida. The errata won't change that (assuming I've got the right errata), as a gauss rifle's penetration is better than 10% of the Trepida's worst armour. So if you shoot the tank long enough, you can drop it.