Tech Level Question

[Rigel Stardin]

Which comes first, Gravtronics or Jump drive?

Or do they happen around the same time?

Do you need Gravtronics to enter Jump space or Can you enter jump space without?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Well...

From my understanding of the OTU Gravitics comes first and while experimenting with Gravitics around the Jovian worlds Terrans discover Jump Drive. Not sure how the Vilani or the Zhodani went about it since both started on worlds were the Ancients left all sorts of toys (and weapons) around.

Does that answer you question, or at least help?

 

[Icosahedron]

Going back to basics - LBB3 (1977) states:
TL8 - Air/Raft
TL9 - Starships.

 

[shield]

One of the books says you need very low gravity to discover the jump drive effects. which implies a research lab way out in the outer system away from the central star (think Terra's lab was in the asteroid belt).

To get that sort of deep space facility, you need lots of STL capability to explore the outer system, which implies anti-grav drives for your ships (old chemical rockets don't have the payload)

Cheers
Richard

 

[Starviking]

One of the books says you need very low gravity to discover the jump drive effects. which implies a research lab way out in the outer system away from the central star (think Terra's lab was in the asteroid belt).

To get that sort of deep space facility, you need lots of STL capability to explore the outer system, which implies anti-grav drives for your ships (old chemical rockets don't have the payload)

Cheers
Richard

But you can also use fusion drives to scoot around the Solar System, and IIRC the Terrans were stated as being behind in gravitics in some Traveller book - maybe Solomani & Aslan.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Icosahedron and Starviking, this is the type of information I need. I'm trying to put together a basic timeline for different types of propulsion. I'm well aware that Traveller is different from 2300AD but somehow in my mind they should mesh together. As with my posts on early space craft, spin habitats should come first before gravitronics. Hylox then Particle drives. Batteries/fuel cell, Solar first then atomic, to fussion...

Hopeful you get my point.

Any more thoughts on the subject are welcome...

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

according to the MgT aslan book, the Aslan "discovered" Jump Drive before they invented grav plates (IIRC, they found a crashed vlani ship and reversed engineered the drive form that.).


just some food for thought. proof that at least one race did it the other way round.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not quite...

according to the MgT aslan book, the Aslan "discovered" Jump Drive before they invented grav plates (IIRC, they found a crashed vlani ship and reversed engineered the drive form that.).


just some food for thought. proof that at least one race did it the other way round.

Actually they found a Terran exploration ship by the name of Pathfinder. So they didn't invent Jump Drive, they reverse engineered it and they get Major Race status since folks don't want to tangle with the whole species over a quibble.

 

[BlackBat242]

The story of Pathfinder was added well after the Aslan were created and given major race status.

But then we get into the religious discussion of how later-written "canon" materials that differ from earlier-written "canon" materials mean that not only is the earlier material no longer true... it never was true, and must be ignored!

 

[rancke]

The story of Pathfinder was added well after the Aslan were created and given major race status.

But then we get into the religious discussion of how later-written "canon" materials that differ from earlier-written "canon" materials mean that not only is the earlier material no longer true... it never was true, and must be ignored!

When the latter-written canon overwrite earlier canon for no discernable reason, you may be justified in arguing that the author was ignorant of the early version and that this means something (I generally take it as license to argue for the most interesting of the two versions, whichever one that turns out be). But if it's pretty evident that the new material is a delieberate retcon, then the new version overrides the old. (There are those who argue that new material always overwrite old, but I don't like to reject anything sight unseen -- the quality does matter, IMO).

But all that is irrelevant when the new material dovetails with the old material, as in the case with the Aslans and the Pathfinder. There's no conflict between the two versions. One is what people used to believe, for good and believable reasons, the other is what has lately turned out to be true.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

It also depends on what do you mean as gravitronics.

As it's already said here, grav propulsion and vehicles appear at TL 8. Jump 1 is at TL 9, so it's first grav vehicles than starships, but artificial gravity has not yet appeared when the first ships make their first jumps. IIRC (sorry I cannot check it just now) in MT grav plates for a starship are TL 10.

 

[McPerth]

But you can also use fusion drives to scoot around the Solar System, and IIRC the Terrans were stated as being behind in gravitics in some Traveller book - maybe Solomani & Aslan.

From Solomani and Aslan, page 37:

Solomani developed gravitic technology latter than most other cultures

Neverless, as they were exploring the solar system, it's to assume they had already it when developed the jump drive (though they could be using fusion reaction drives as well, as described on HT).

CT AM6: Solomani, page 4 specifies that they developed thrusters (as in CT there is no difference among gravitic and thruster maneover drives, one can assume any of them) more or less at the same time that jump drive.

From my understanding of the OTU Gravitics comes first and while experimenting with Gravitics around the Jovian worlds Terrans discover Jump Drive.

The terrans (latter solomani) developed the jump drive while experimenting in the planetoid belt, not arround Jovian worlds (CT AM6: Solomani and MT S&A, pages 7 and 19 specify that)

 

[Rigel Stardin]

It also depends on what do you mean as gravitronics.

As it's already said here, grav propulsion and vehicles appear at TL 8. Jump 1 is at TL 9, so it's first grav vehicles than starships, but artificial gravity has not yet appeared when the first ships make their first jumps. IIRC (sorry I cannot check it just now) in MT grav plates for a starship are TL 10.

Now that's a kick in the pants?

Artifical gravity doesn't exist untill after a culture is out exploring the stars. So that puts 2300AD at Tech Level 9.

I remember see in a thread on this forum, that someone stated there is a seemless transit between normal space and Jump space. Which seems to be backup by the information McPerth suppiled.

Now for another question: If Tech Level is marked by a event (Grav, Jump, etc..) and not a timeline, you almost have to think that such technology could be invented at any point in history (ala Captain Nemo)?

 

[McPerth]

Artifical gravity doesn't exist untill after a culture is out exploring the stars. So that puts 2300AD at Tech Level 9.

Traveler and 2300 are different technological universes. In 2300 grav tech does not exist (and is not expected to be), and FTL travel is achieved by warp, instead of jump.

Neither is in 2300 gravitic vehicles (that would be early TL 8 at most), TL due to jump is not possible to calculate, but there are gauss rifles and PGMP, what would raise the TL to 12+, and, while there are not battledress, combat walkers may be seen as it...

As you can see, I won't dare to try to quantify the 2300 TL in traveller terms, as I see them too different for that

INow for another question: If Tech Level is marked by a event (Grav, Jump, etc..) and not a timeline, you almost have to think that such technology could be invented at any point in history (ala Captain Nemo)?

Who knows? I hope they will (either jump or warp).

Anyway, we go well below shedule for OTU (both CT AM6 and MT S&A give the date of the jump drive discovery at 2087, and by then there was a lab on the planetoid belt to study it...)

 

[shield]

Unfortunately you can't have things just invented e.g. captain nemo. You need the infrastructure and materials technology to support your invention.

You can't build a super computer without transistors, extensive miniaturization, advanced materials, clean rooms etc. The support infrastructure has to be there. There are designs for a pyramid mega-city that would float in Tokyo's harbour, but we can't make it yet as we don't have the required high tech materials.

Nothing to stop a genius coming up with an idea, and even doing a preliminary design - something like de Vinci and his tanks / helicopters, but you can't actually build it.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Infrastructure is require for a civilization to advance to the next level.

With men like Da Vinici, had they had the right sponsor/patron who was willing to put the money and the craftmen to work on his tank, it might have been possible for such a device to be built and successfully used centuries before it's time.

Another Example: The Wright Brothers brought all the technologies together to create the first powered flying machine. They also realized the mathimatics assocated with flight up to that point was flawed.

The BBC show Connection showed how unrelated discoveries created the basis for modern technology. The TV show Slider showed what happen if one of these connections wasn't made.

The point I'm making here is it is possible for one individual/think tank to make the connections earlier than Traveller Tech Level Timeline suggests. With the right technological support and money to backing them, certain technologies could be created decades or centuries earlier than expected. It is also possible for a civilization to not make these technological connections and have something missing from their tech level.

Captian Nemo could build his submarine during that time period, the question is the power source? It's been decades since I read the book, tv and movies have always suggest it was nuclear powered but, I think Vernes used a different power source? There was no indication of sonar so running into a sea mound was a real hazard. Vernes real accomplishment was planting the seeds of this technology in peoples minds which lead to tech needed for their practical use...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Here is the information on technology used by Verne's ...

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_21/verne.htm

 

[McPerth]

Which comes first, Gravtronics or Jump drive?

Or do they happen around the same time?

Do you need Gravtronics to enter Jump space or Can you enter jump space without?

In MT Referee's companion, page 33, states jump drive apears at late TL 9. Under TL 10 it says :gravitic maneover drives replace old chemical thrust maneover drives.

Although, in Referee's Manual, craft design rules give the TL of gravitic drives as 9 (page 65).

As you see, information is not clear...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

And there lies another problem.

Ion drives (or just plain old particle drives because there are about 8 of them out there using different gases and techiques) are becoming useful in space exploration as we speak.

Chemical rockets better discribe solid fuel rockets and or rocket using different chemicals as propellent (V2 comes to mind) under this classification.

Hylox is listed seperately.

Then Heplar got thrown in? (Vented plasma from reactor?)

Did I miss any Manuvering Drives or are there more?

 

[McPerth]

I also see the tech leves have changed a while with time. In CT, fusion power and gravitics came at TL 8. In MT (and AFAIK latter versions) they both came at TL 9.

Also computers where reduced in size and power requirements as newer versions of traveller apeared.

As another example, PA turrets were TL 14 in HG and MT. In MGT you can have a PA turret at TL 9 (the weapon itself is TL 8, but triple turret, required to mount it as errata says, is TL 9. The meaning of having a weapon you cannot mount at TL 8 is to anyone's guess).

I guess they change the TL's meanings in various fields as time passes and new thech is apearing in real world, and other techs seem more difficult than expected (in the late 70's, as I remember, fusion power seemed arround the corner, 30 years latter it seems quite more difficult than expected then. At the same time, computers required full rooms, now cellular phones may be used as such, the main problem to reduce them even more seeming to be the interface systems).