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tech level of roman empire

trader jim

SOC-14 1K
one of my reading/study hobbies is the Roman Empire. what is the truest/closest/correct tech
level of rome of the emporers- other words "ancient" rome? Would the chinese empire have a higher or lower tech level - after all they
had printing and gunpowder at the time of ancient rome. any ideas
 
The problem is the Traveller TL system at the low end is really broad. TL 1 covers Bronze Age to Early Middle ages. I'd give both the roman empire and the Chinese empires a TL1 with a few TL2 toys.

If you want a different TL system, take a look at GURPS TLs: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/index.html
 
Interesting thought...I'll have to think on it and get back to you...though it does immediately make me think of two things. One is what the TL chart in CT mentions...the examples they give aren't necessarily what they have, but what they're capable of...and of course there would be peaks and valleys in the TL...granted the chinese had gunpowder and such, but the romans had thier architecture and political system.

The other thing it makes me think of is a security guard sent back in time to save the intrepid heroes by wiping out a Roman legion with a sub-machine gun and a crate full of hand grenades in an old Time Tunnel episode
 
Roman empire would be on the cusp of Tech 1 and 2.

The scientific knowledge, such as anatomy, astronomy and engineering were quite high. They even had some early mechanical calculators (which we found from archaeology, although we had no clue to their existance from the literature).

The Chinese might be a firm tech 2 by some reckoning at this time, although their metallurgy might not be what you'd expect at tech 2 (making cannons and moveable type impracticle).
 
i dont mean to start a riot - but i truly think we are short changing the roman and chinese empire
due to the fact the "classic" tech levels are so broad and not very specific. Could the "canon"
tech levels be redone? should they be redone or
up-graded. with ALL the new discoverys and all the documenterys on tv maybe we should consider
this. the chinese were casting bronze, iron and
STEEL at this time, PLUS doing a lot of other great stuff!!!!
 
Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
Perhaps, due to the massive range of tech in the levels 1 and 2 they should be sub-classified by letters (a to whatever)?
The real problem with the Traveller (and GURPS) Tech Levels is it assumes that technology would be developed in the order and sequence it was developed here on earth. This is not true. If you're a fan of James Burke's Connections TV program and books, he demonstrates that a) all technology builds on itself in weird ways and b) most developments were the result of accidents or circumstance. And it would be easy to imagine the various techologies arriving early or later if some push or another was made.
The classic example is the development of guns. The romans had all of the technolgy to build cannon and hand guns, except the formula for gun powder. The chinese even had the formula for gun powder, the just never put it into the bells to throw large rocks until the europeans showed them how.
Hell, the ancient greeks had all the peices for building steam engines, they even build small examples.
 
The best way to handle it that I have found is to use the guidelines as a general indication of the average TL available. Individual technological areas of advancement may actually be above or below this average to some degree.

This is a concept I would really like to see explored in a supplement. One that really gets into developing civilizations and technology for worlds in Traveller. That is a product that would have cross platform use.

Hunter
 
Originally posted by tjoneslo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
Perhaps, due to the massive range of tech in the levels 1 and 2 they should be sub-classified by letters (a to whatever)?
The real problem with the Traveller (and GURPS) Tech Levels is it assumes that technology would be developed in the order and sequence it was developed here on earth. This is not true. If you're a fan of James Burke's Connections TV program and books, he demonstrates that a) all technology builds on itself in weird ways and b) most developments were the result of accidents or circumstance. And it would be easy to imagine the various techologies arriving early or later if some push or another was made.
The classic example is the development of guns. The romans had all of the technolgy to build cannon and hand guns, except the formula for gun powder. The chinese even had the formula for gun powder, the just never put it into the bells to throw large rocks until the europeans showed them how.
Hell, the ancient greeks had all the peices for building steam engines, they even build small examples.
</font>[/QUOTE]There is a roleplaying game, published by Thyrsus Games ( http://www.fulminata.com ) that explores this very thing, that the Romans developed gunpowder, calling it fulminata. I've always been a Romanophile and I have also always enjoyed alternate history fiction and gaming, so this combined the two. Give it a look, I think you'll find it interesting, even if it doesn't really have anything to do with the main topic of your post. ;)

Doug Grimes
------------
'We put poisons in our water and air to weed out the weak! We detonate fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our god to a stick! Don't f**k with the human race!' --attributed to General Nikolai Nikolai at a galactic summit

If you came in search of information, enlightenment, or anything useful, you probably need to re-think how you use the internet.
--Aaron Williams
 
in reguards to hunters post - i would like to be included in ANY way in exploring or changing/upgrading the classic traveler tech level
system!!! a LOT of good hard research would need to be done!!! a new supplement would be a true project and i would like to be part of it!!! i could get started now and you couldnt shut me up for anything!! if you are serious let me know!!!
 
In dealing with low-tech worlds it is good to remember that even in Earth history some very advanced things have been invented, only to be forgotten. Case in point, there was a tribe of nomads in the asia steeps, first centry AD or BC IIRC, that performed basic surgery. On the lines of "Connections" (or anticonnections) there was a Greek engineer who used all of the parts of the steam locomotive in the his various projects. He did not put them together because there was no need or reason at the time.
Then there is also the problem of low-tech worlds in the Imperium. It is possable and very likely that the people live at the low-tech because they want to for some reason. Thus they may be listed as tech 1 and have a tech 15 medical system and law enforcement (as an extream example).
I like Hunters idea of using tech level as an indicator but not as a specific definition.
 
It is very easy to over-rate chinese technology over the last 1500 years. They made many inovations, but the culture suppressed them and they were not available as technologies.

I was working on a concept that, like book 3, used several areas of tech and averaged the level. My parralel tech levels were

Information Technology
Tools
Materials
Agriculture/Food technology
Energy
Transportation
Medecine
Weapons

Using TL A as the threshold of intersteller travel, I figure

0- (Pebbles & twigs, grunts & gestures)
1- Paleolithic (language, stone and wood tools, boats, fire, cooperative hunter gatherers)
2- Neolithic (compound tools, domesticated animals, subsistance agriculture)
Paleolithic and Neolithic ought to be at least three, but I was running out of TL
3- Bronze (copper & bronze, chariots and carts, writing)
4- Iron (Iron and steel, the arch, sailing ships, geometry, limited wind & water power)
5- Rennaissance and pre-industrial, (global sailing ships, printing press, Calculus, cannon)
6- Steam & clockwork (steamships, trains, early industrialization, telegraph/telephone)
7- oil/electric (radio & tube electronics, cars, aircraft, submersibles)
8- Atomic & "space" (Jets, nuclear fission, true submarines, solid-state electronics)
9- Information age (integrated circuits, personal comunications, fusion power)

Right now, the Western powers & pacific rim countries are crossing from 8 to 9. Tne "second world" like Russia, India, Brazil and Argentina are 8. China is 7 The "Third World" is divided between 4-6. I think for a planetary rating you should look at the technologhy available to the most sophisticated 20% of the population, so Terra in 2000 is an "8" by my system.
 
Yuo seem to forget that BOTH the Romans and HAN dynesty china were IRON AGE cultures. you should also remeber that gunpowder came AFTER the iron age.........
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Right now, the Western powers & pacific rim countries are crossing from 8 to 9. Tne "second world" like Russia, India, Brazil and Argentina are 8. China is 7 The "Third World" is divided between 4-6. I think for a planetary rating you should look at the technologhy available to the most sophisticated 20% of the population, so Terra in 2000 is an "8" by my system.
It doesn't work this way. I can purchase virtually any TL 9 service or product available in US, from my home in Brazil, although I have to pay a premium price. Also, most technological stuff can also be produced in the most developed third world countries. The big technological difference is who holds the intellectual proprieties. In this sense, the US holds most of the patents in the world, followed by Europe and Japan.

I believe that TL in Traveller relate to the ability to produce products of that TL. Even so, big corporations doesn't truly have a nation. Most high tech companies have no problem in assemble advanced plants in third world countries, as long as this keep the costs down, so many of the higher tech products are being produced away from US, Europe, and Japan.

There are of course exceptions to this rule. A large parcel of the world population have not access to sufficient food; what to say about high quality services. However, this problem is much deeper than technology availability.
 
Thats why I said 20% (at least 20%?) of the population should have access. I figure 10-20% of "2nd World" populations can afford high tech (maybe more in Brazil, fewer in India) and less than 5% of 3rd world populations. Considering that barely half the technologies typical of my TL9 are available even in the high-tech countries I'll stand by TL8 as a planetary average.

This implies pockets from TL4 to 9. Remember the Black Death and famine myths like Hansel & Grettel are TL4 and the 1918 flu epidemic and American Dust Bowl were TL7, so Somalia and North Korea are comprehensible.
 
Originally posted by soloprobe:
Yuo seem to forget that BOTH the Romans and HAN dynesty china were IRON AGE cultures. you should also remeber that gunpowder came AFTER the iron age.........
Mmm. I suppose it depends on how you define iron age. The technology of 14th Century Europe was not much better than the latter Roman Empire, but gunpowder bombards and petards (demolition charges) were common features of siege warfare. Even field artillery and hande gonnes were in use years before Guttenberg. And the Chinese had used pyrotechnic missiles centuries earlier.
 
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