Tactical Disgussion Board: Patrols
- Thread starter Hal
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Rupert Boleyn
SOC-12
Inbound force? Inbound to where? The system is OfNoConsequence; your target, if any, is the shipping. </font>[/QUOTE]That's why I had only four DEs involved in patrolling everything except the mainworld and GG1. I used DEs because there was nothing smaller that had the range, and the only reason I bothered at all was so to protect against claims that large chunks of the system were being left 'undefended' or 'to the pirates'. Also I figure that having a DE turn up every week or so and have a poke around will be a deterrent against pirates setting up equipment caches, etc.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
Hear are my designs for the DD's and DE's, as you will note the total lack of missiles.
I have only got gurps V1, and i found that missiles will only hit if there arn't enough to hurt and get shot if there are (sand, point defence lasers), also the resupply is a bitch.
If this is an anti-piracy force it to big, If it's a pirate hunting force its to small (Not enough DD's and to many DE's).
If it was consentrated it could stop a CA but any escorts for the CA would kill there chances ie single CA it probably dies so do most of the DD's and DE's but they should win, CA and any escort they probably win with low losses.
The system - anti pirate - CVE and 8 De over the gas giant, 2 DD and the other 4DE over main port.
If anything happens the other force can only watch, its to far to travel to the other planet and so would take to long.
500-ton De-class Destroyer Escort, New Ship Name (TL11)
Crew: 0 Total. 7 Command and Control, 2 Maneuver Drive, 1 Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 5 Turret Gunners, 1 Maintenance.
Hull: 500-ton VGSL, Heavy Frame, Standard Materials, Crystaliron (Standard) Armored Sphere configuration Hull (DR 1000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor, Psi-Shielded), Standard Compartmentalization, Basic Stealth(-7, AMod 2), Basic Emission Cloaking(-7, PMod 2 [-3, PMod 6 in space]).
Control Areas: Basic Bridge(Hardened, Complexity 8), AESA-UHv, PESA-UHv, Computer Bank(8xMacroframe, HiCap, Hardened, Complexity 9), EW(Hardened, Complexity 9).
Communicator Range (mi) Radio Maser Laser Meson
Basic Bridge 50,000,000 0 100,000,000 15,000
Sensors Range/Rating (mi) PESA AESA Radscanner
Basic Bridge 30,000/38 150,000/42 10,000/35
AESA-UHv 0/0 7,000,000/52 0/0
PESA-UHv 7,000,000/52 0/0 0/0
EW Range(/Rating) (mi) Area Jammer Radio Direction Finder Radio Jammer
EW 45/7 5,000,000,000 50,000
Engineering: Engineering, 2 Fusion Power Slice, 21 Jump Drive, 148 Maneuver Drive(6.01 / 6.01 Gs, 14,800 stons thrust), 156 Cryonic Internal Tank(Fire 0, 1 Scoops), Fuel Processor(19.4 hours to refine Cryonic Internal Tank), 105.9 Man-Hours/day Maintenance.
Accommodations: 2 Accommodation, Full Life Support, 2 Luxury Stateroom, Military Sickbay(5 Patients), Brig/Armory/Safe(25 Users), Gymnasium(4 Users), Logistics(6 Users).
Misc: Preserved Provision.
Armaments: 4 Nuclear Damper(20 mi), 2 Turret Batteries of 2 each (DR500, 870 Mj Hv Laser[RoF Bonus +1]), 1 Turret Battery of 1 (DR500, Sand Caster [200], Sand Caster Half Load [x100]), 2 Hull Mount Batteries of 2 each (870 Mj Hv Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name Qty Type Acc SS Dmg RoF 1/2 Rng Max
870 Mj Hv Laser 8 Imp 33 30 6dx100(2) 1/60 (+7) 35000/3 105000/10
Sand Caster [200] 1 (+0)
Stores: 2.5 Hold.
Statistics: EMass 2,462.66 stons, LMass 2,462.66 stons, Cost MCr487.18, HP 57,574, Size Mod 9, HT 12, CP 59.
Performance: Jump-3 (3), Acc 6.01 / 6.01 Gs, Airspeed 7,606 mph, Skimming Airspeed 21,511 mph, Aerostatic Lift 14,800 stons.
Sample Times (Earth Std, Full Load): Orbit 0.04 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.05 Hrs, 100D 2.6 Hrs, Earth-Mars 44.72 Hrs.
Software Package Qty % Utilization Description
Astrogation Jump 3 3 0.0000 C2, Astrogration (Jump) 10
Damage Control 3 12.5000 C9, Damage Control +9
Datalink 3 0.0000 C1
Fire Direction 1 4.1667 C9, Gunner (Missiles) +10
Gunner 5 0.2083 C7, Gunner 15
Targeting 5 20.8333 C9, Targeting +10
Totals 37.7083
Options
Turrets add to Jump Tonnage for Jump Drive/Fuel calculations
Printed 6/11/2003 7:22:02 PM
Copyright © 2000 by Lionel Deffries
Damn i forgot the DD spreedsheet.
5000tons,1 meson spinal mount,heavy lasers in bays jump 3, maneuver 5.
A single DD and a DE should be enough to deal with any pirate ship, or the CVE and a DE should do to. maybe three DE could to.
Bye.
Hear are my designs for the DD's and DE's, as you will note the total lack of missiles.
I have only got gurps V1, and i found that missiles will only hit if there arn't enough to hurt and get shot if there are (sand, point defence lasers), also the resupply is a bitch.
If this is an anti-piracy force it to big, If it's a pirate hunting force its to small (Not enough DD's and to many DE's).
If it was consentrated it could stop a CA but any escorts for the CA would kill there chances ie single CA it probably dies so do most of the DD's and DE's but they should win, CA and any escort they probably win with low losses.
The system - anti pirate - CVE and 8 De over the gas giant, 2 DD and the other 4DE over main port.
If anything happens the other force can only watch, its to far to travel to the other planet and so would take to long.
500-ton De-class Destroyer Escort, New Ship Name (TL11)
Crew: 0 Total. 7 Command and Control, 2 Maneuver Drive, 1 Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 5 Turret Gunners, 1 Maintenance.
Hull: 500-ton VGSL, Heavy Frame, Standard Materials, Crystaliron (Standard) Armored Sphere configuration Hull (DR 1000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor, Psi-Shielded), Standard Compartmentalization, Basic Stealth(-7, AMod 2), Basic Emission Cloaking(-7, PMod 2 [-3, PMod 6 in space]).
Control Areas: Basic Bridge(Hardened, Complexity 8), AESA-UHv, PESA-UHv, Computer Bank(8xMacroframe, HiCap, Hardened, Complexity 9), EW(Hardened, Complexity 9).
Communicator Range (mi) Radio Maser Laser Meson
Basic Bridge 50,000,000 0 100,000,000 15,000
Sensors Range/Rating (mi) PESA AESA Radscanner
Basic Bridge 30,000/38 150,000/42 10,000/35
AESA-UHv 0/0 7,000,000/52 0/0
PESA-UHv 7,000,000/52 0/0 0/0
EW Range(/Rating) (mi) Area Jammer Radio Direction Finder Radio Jammer
EW 45/7 5,000,000,000 50,000
Engineering: Engineering, 2 Fusion Power Slice, 21 Jump Drive, 148 Maneuver Drive(6.01 / 6.01 Gs, 14,800 stons thrust), 156 Cryonic Internal Tank(Fire 0, 1 Scoops), Fuel Processor(19.4 hours to refine Cryonic Internal Tank), 105.9 Man-Hours/day Maintenance.
Accommodations: 2 Accommodation, Full Life Support, 2 Luxury Stateroom, Military Sickbay(5 Patients), Brig/Armory/Safe(25 Users), Gymnasium(4 Users), Logistics(6 Users).
Misc: Preserved Provision.
Armaments: 4 Nuclear Damper(20 mi), 2 Turret Batteries of 2 each (DR500, 870 Mj Hv Laser[RoF Bonus +1]), 1 Turret Battery of 1 (DR500, Sand Caster [200], Sand Caster Half Load [x100]), 2 Hull Mount Batteries of 2 each (870 Mj Hv Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name Qty Type Acc SS Dmg RoF 1/2 Rng Max
870 Mj Hv Laser 8 Imp 33 30 6dx100(2) 1/60 (+7) 35000/3 105000/10
Sand Caster [200] 1 (+0)
Stores: 2.5 Hold.
Statistics: EMass 2,462.66 stons, LMass 2,462.66 stons, Cost MCr487.18, HP 57,574, Size Mod 9, HT 12, CP 59.
Performance: Jump-3 (3), Acc 6.01 / 6.01 Gs, Airspeed 7,606 mph, Skimming Airspeed 21,511 mph, Aerostatic Lift 14,800 stons.
Sample Times (Earth Std, Full Load): Orbit 0.04 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.05 Hrs, 100D 2.6 Hrs, Earth-Mars 44.72 Hrs.
Software Package Qty % Utilization Description
Astrogation Jump 3 3 0.0000 C2, Astrogration (Jump) 10
Damage Control 3 12.5000 C9, Damage Control +9
Datalink 3 0.0000 C1
Fire Direction 1 4.1667 C9, Gunner (Missiles) +10
Gunner 5 0.2083 C7, Gunner 15
Targeting 5 20.8333 C9, Targeting +10
Totals 37.7083
Options
Turrets add to Jump Tonnage for Jump Drive/Fuel calculations
Printed 6/11/2003 7:22:02 PM
Copyright © 2000 by Lionel Deffries
Damn i forgot the DD spreedsheet.
5000tons,1 meson spinal mount,heavy lasers in bays jump 3, maneuver 5.
A single DD and a DE should be enough to deal with any pirate ship, or the CVE and a DE should do to. maybe three DE could to.
Bye.
Ok - lets look at a few "problems" involved with GURPS TRAVELLER missile combat.
Generally speaking, whether it is a Heavy laser firing at missile swarms, or a double laser turret firing against missile swarms - they generally nail about 5 maybe 6 missiles in the point defense role. A ship with 4 laser turrets will stop about 20 incoming missiles.
IF you do not use the frangible missile rule (limits the damage to 3 hex's worth of speed in the damage formula regardless of actual speeds involved greater than 3) then missiles are actually devestating in the GURPS TRAVELLER universe. Getting them to hit might be a wee bit difficult however
So, let's assume the following scenario:
Commerce raider is trying really hard to operate within the Imperial Border without being tagged as anything but a pirate. So the raider acts as a pirate (and in a very technical sense, he IS a pirate since his nation doesn't want to be at war yet!). The "pirate" launches a barrage of missiles and two lucky shots get through before the DE is even aware that there is an attacker out there. Next round, the "Pirate" jumps out, or has enough legs to vanish?
How would you judge such an encounter? A defeat? A minor tactical defeat? If that ship took enough damage to be sidelined for 2 weeks for repairs - what then?
Do NOT rule out missiles as being relatively harmless in a GURPS universe. A single ship might be able to launch only 12 missiles and control them - but there is nothing that keeps an enemy from launching 12 missiles on a balistic (unguided) course, and handing them off to "merchant" ships near by. The attacker can launch from a distance and turn tail, and the defenders wouldn't realize who were guiding those missles.
Generally speaking, whether it is a Heavy laser firing at missile swarms, or a double laser turret firing against missile swarms - they generally nail about 5 maybe 6 missiles in the point defense role. A ship with 4 laser turrets will stop about 20 incoming missiles.
IF you do not use the frangible missile rule (limits the damage to 3 hex's worth of speed in the damage formula regardless of actual speeds involved greater than 3) then missiles are actually devestating in the GURPS TRAVELLER universe. Getting them to hit might be a wee bit difficult however
So, let's assume the following scenario:
Commerce raider is trying really hard to operate within the Imperial Border without being tagged as anything but a pirate. So the raider acts as a pirate (and in a very technical sense, he IS a pirate since his nation doesn't want to be at war yet!). The "pirate" launches a barrage of missiles and two lucky shots get through before the DE is even aware that there is an attacker out there. Next round, the "Pirate" jumps out, or has enough legs to vanish?
How would you judge such an encounter? A defeat? A minor tactical defeat? If that ship took enough damage to be sidelined for 2 weeks for repairs - what then?
Do NOT rule out missiles as being relatively harmless in a GURPS universe. A single ship might be able to launch only 12 missiles and control them - but there is nothing that keeps an enemy from launching 12 missiles on a balistic (unguided) course, and handing them off to "merchant" ships near by. The attacker can launch from a distance and turn tail, and the defenders wouldn't realize who were guiding those missles.
January 20th, 2004 - tactical discussions becomes a PBEM GURPS TRAVELLER campaign using MAYDAY rules for ship movement but GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS STARSHIPS rules for everything else.
Place of conflict: Ianic system (modified).
Combatants: Navy versus Pirates as well as combats between pirate and civilian forces.
Information: Ianic sees some 3000+ dtons of cargo shipped to it from various of its 16 trade partners per week. It sends out some nearly 3,000 dtons of cargo back out. A newly formed corporation by the name of Ianic Fueling Corporation - incorporated at Lunion and sold on the Lunion Stock exchange provides fuel for an average of 50 ships per week. When more ships arrive than expected - various ships unable to purchase fuel end up having to make a 5 day fuel run to the nearest Gas Giant before they can jump to their destination. It is currently illegal to skim water from the Ianic world surface.
Currently, there are 5 Jovian Dancer class transport ships involved in refining fuel and transporting it to the Ianic Downport.
System Data: K3 Main sequence primary star with an M8 main sequence companion. Min separation between companions is 27 AU while max separation is 153 AU. A total of 4 terrestrial planets plus 1 gas giant plus 1 asteroid belt orbits primary star with the furtherest known orbit between primary and secondary stars being 5.81 AU's (the Asteroid belt).
Revised IANIC data:
E661697-5 (Traveller UWP)
Reason for revised information: Ianic requires a biosphere that is life friendly and produces a weather/climate that is historical for the Jonkereen to exist on the planet. Current information on the IANIC star is not only not capable of doing that - but data from The Spinward Marches Campaign needs to be errata'd.
Tactical and strategic problem: No one ever really knows what a pirate has at any given time until the pirate becomes known. Equipment for the Pirate might be a simple single 200 dton ship attacking from a position of surprise to an 800 dton broadsword. Pirate may have only one ship or it might have more than one. Pirate gets to chose when and where it will attack after making an attempt to appear as an innocent merchant ship.
Navy has the advantage of having purpose built warships along with numbers along with legitimate operations within the system.
Minor complications: The Ianic starport is in the process of being upgraded from an E class starport to a C class starport. The Star Port Authority has been authorized to finance a bond and begin upgrades. Ianic is also home to a X-boat training facility.
If you are interested in playing - stay tuned for further announcements.
Place of conflict: Ianic system (modified).
Combatants: Navy versus Pirates as well as combats between pirate and civilian forces.
Information: Ianic sees some 3000+ dtons of cargo shipped to it from various of its 16 trade partners per week. It sends out some nearly 3,000 dtons of cargo back out. A newly formed corporation by the name of Ianic Fueling Corporation - incorporated at Lunion and sold on the Lunion Stock exchange provides fuel for an average of 50 ships per week. When more ships arrive than expected - various ships unable to purchase fuel end up having to make a 5 day fuel run to the nearest Gas Giant before they can jump to their destination. It is currently illegal to skim water from the Ianic world surface.
Currently, there are 5 Jovian Dancer class transport ships involved in refining fuel and transporting it to the Ianic Downport.
System Data: K3 Main sequence primary star with an M8 main sequence companion. Min separation between companions is 27 AU while max separation is 153 AU. A total of 4 terrestrial planets plus 1 gas giant plus 1 asteroid belt orbits primary star with the furtherest known orbit between primary and secondary stars being 5.81 AU's (the Asteroid belt).
Revised IANIC data:
E661697-5 (Traveller UWP)
Reason for revised information: Ianic requires a biosphere that is life friendly and produces a weather/climate that is historical for the Jonkereen to exist on the planet. Current information on the IANIC star is not only not capable of doing that - but data from The Spinward Marches Campaign needs to be errata'd.
Tactical and strategic problem: No one ever really knows what a pirate has at any given time until the pirate becomes known. Equipment for the Pirate might be a simple single 200 dton ship attacking from a position of surprise to an 800 dton broadsword. Pirate may have only one ship or it might have more than one. Pirate gets to chose when and where it will attack after making an attempt to appear as an innocent merchant ship.
Navy has the advantage of having purpose built warships along with numbers along with legitimate operations within the system.
Minor complications: The Ianic starport is in the process of being upgraded from an E class starport to a C class starport. The Star Port Authority has been authorized to finance a bond and begin upgrades. Ianic is also home to a X-boat training facility.
If you are interested in playing - stay tuned for further announcements.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Before designating patrols, and armament it would be useful for certain information. First what Tech Level is this fleet? (Makes a huge difference on capability.) Second what is the expected type and level of opposition? I know it says pirates. Are we dealing with the typical Armed Merchant, the 400T Corsair, armed Type S, and occasional Type-T? Or is it more serious military grade Commerce Raiders? The rule set definitely makes a difference when it comes to arming ships (as does expected targets and TL available). This size and composition obviously doesn't expect to actually survive a Capital ship commerce raider but still.... I am assuming that DE is in the 1000T range but one should never assume.(Fasa's 400T Lucifer class was classed as a DE. 
Obviously the Baby Carrier is the biggest ship in the fleet, about what tonnage is it allowed? (Rough estimate would have meput it around 10Kton but depends on design criteria.)
One other thing is that rule set determines how sensors work. If sensors are less effective then the ships need to be wider spread.
Obviously the Baby Carrier is the biggest ship in the fleet, about what tonnage is it allowed? (Rough estimate would have meput it around 10Kton but depends on design criteria.)One other thing is that rule set determines how sensors work. If sensors are less effective then the ships need to be wider spread.
In response to the questions - I'm trying to keep the ship classes as close to the GURPS TRAVELLER universe as is possible. I've introduced a CVE class ship that seems to have some merit as a light carrier class from the Megatraveller universe. The idea for a CVE is to have two or three of these equal a CV group. I suspect that I will be going with a 10,000 dton craft for the CVE - POSSIBLY 15,000 - depending on the TL of the craft.Originally posted by Bhoins:
Before designating patrols, and armament it would be useful for certain information. First what Tech Level is this fleet? (Makes a huge difference on capability.) Second what is the expected type and level of opposition? I know it says pirates. Are we dealing with the typical Armed Merchant, the 400T Corsair, armed Type S, and occasional Type-T? Or is it more serious military grade Commerce Raiders? The rule set definitely makes a difference when it comes to arming ships (as does expected targets and TL available). This size and composition obviously doesn't expect to actually survive a Capital ship commerce raider but still.... I am assuming that DE is in the 1000T range but one should never assume.(Fasa's 400T Lucifer class was classed as a DE.
One other thing is that rule set determines how sensors work. If sensors are less effective then the ships need to be wider spread.
Here is the rub: Most DE are listed as 1,000 dton ships at TTL 15 (GTL 12). TTL 14 (GURPS TL 11) ships would be older craft that are being phased out or have long ago been phased out from the Imperial Navy. The only ships that a colonial navy may have are obsolete ships from the Imperial Navy and the ships that can be produced locally - in this case, TTL 12 & 13 (GURPS TL 10). The presumption here is that the Lunion Subsector navy will be using ships from Strouden and/or Lunion.
I had thought about using a PURE GURPS TL 11 navy but realized that this would likely not be the case. As a consequence - Budgetary concerns aren't really of import *IF* your design is deemed to be reasonable and something that a subsector Navy would utilize.
(all Tech levels are GURPS TECH LEVEL Below)
Options:
1) 1 CVE at TL 11, 1 DD at TL 11, 1 DD at TL 10, 2 DE's at TL 11, 10 DE's at TL 10
2) 1 CVE at TL 10, 2 DD's at TL 11, 2 DE's at TL 11, 10 DE's at TL 10
3) 1 Complete force at TL 10
Why choose option #3? As newer built ships - they won't have age related "reliability" issues
Keep in mind that you will be expected to rotate ships to take into account their expected Maintenance schedule. With 15 ships involved, at any one time - at least 1 ship will be required to undergo annual maintenance.
I hope that answers your questions
Hi Lionel,
Just out of curiosity, what would you like this class of DE to be called? If I use it, I will have to consider this to be one of the "older" class ships that the Imperial Navy seconded to the Subsector Navy. Most of the subsector navy ships for the Lunion subsector will be Late TL 10 ships. But I'd like to include an "aging" TL 11 ship
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