OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

[inexorabletash]

If you want to experiment with Trello, I have some data cleanup items tracked here:

https://trello.com/b/y61wmEKJ/travellermap-com-wish-list

For official data (T5SS or otherwise), the only specific one not mentioned so far is that Dark Nebula 2601 doesn't actually have a name - the world is nameless in S&A!

 

[inexorabletash]

Kusyu/DarkNebula1919 (Aslan Homeworld)==>
TravellerMap currently lists the stellar data as a M1V M9D binary
DGP Solomani & Aslan stellar data lists the stellar data as a "G4V DA" binary (which should be "G4V AD" under T5)

Heh. It's M1V M9D in the data listings for Dark Nebula in the back of S&A (page 103), but G4V DA in the Kusyu System Details on page 47 of S&A.

So this isn't a transcription error but a consistency error, so I'll just leave the TM data alone pending the T5SS revision. But I agree, Kusyu (or Kuzu) should end up w/ G4V DA (or AD) after the move.

 

[whulorigan]

Muan Gwi (Solomani Rim 1717) has F2V in AM6 Solomani, and that's a primary source for our purposes... Do you have another proposal?

GT: Rim Of Fire lists M2V for Muan Gwi. But since there are contradictory canonical references, I would go with whatever makes the most sense considering the physiology of the Vegans (since this is their homeworld). A cool, dim M-type star or a hot, bright F-type star --

From CT:LD (N-Z):

"The paired eyes [of Vegans] are covered by a transparent eyelidlike structure, which acts as a polarized light filter. This structure protects the eyes from glare, like built-in sunglasses, and also serves to keep windblown dust out of the eyes. This filter can be retracted when not needed. The eyes themselves are large, and pick up radiation well into the infrared portion of the spectrum, an adaptation to Muan Gwi's small red sun."
​

The eyes having a "polarized light filter" for glare-protection works well for the F-type star (as does perhaps the "cowl" around the head). The vision into the infrared works well with the M-type star. So I guess I am on the fence.

(Of course, you could always have your cake and eat it too and make it a binary F2V M2V. Then all you would need to do is decide which star of the pair that Muan Gwi orbits).

Dingir (Solomani Rim 1222) I have NO idea where your Sigma Draconis reference comes from. I have a reference to Gliese 667, but I wouldn't consider any "known stars" comparison to the Solomani Rim anything but speculative.

I have looked in all of the places I thought it might have been, but have turned up nothing. I remember it being associated with a text either about the Interstellar Wars or the Fleet HQ at Dingir. Interestingly, the stellar data from AM6 Solomani for Dingir is K0V M1D, which is the spectrum for Sigma Draconis (apart from the added companion star, as Sigma Draconis is solitary).

If I find it, I will provide the reference. Otherwise, just ignore it.

Gashidda (Solomani Rim 1127): Yes, AM6 lists this as Epsilon Ceti, but review indicates that Delta Pavonis is a stronger fit. And as above, I still don't consider any comparison of "known stars" to the Solomani Rim to be anything but speculative.

As noted in my initial post, I understand that some of these may be deliberate changes to canon. Just wanted to make sure they are not oversights.

I'm really wanting to use an expression method similar to what Martin & Company did with the stellar data for 1248.

I will whole-heartedly second that motion. I thought MJD's notation was excellent.

 

[whulorigan]

Saxe & Tondoul

Now, to the cases above...

Tondoul (Spinward Marches 0739): E5136A7-7
Saxe (Spinward Marches 0231): EAA5543-8

If you have issues with that, can you give me more specifics.

Don, was this particular question directed at me? I do not see these mentioned in the thread, and I am not sure what issue was raised for these.

EDIT: OK I am blind. This was referring to an issue raised earlier in the thread by Dagrill.

 

[tjoneslo]

Antares (Antares / Antares 2421) - The extended data for this system lists 12 worlds, including a gas giant. If this is really supposed to be Antares (the star), it should have exactly 0 planets, and a dust cloud.

As an alternative, during a discussion of supernova candidates in the Imperium, and to match the original UWP: A762ADA-D, it was considered to make the Antares system a trinary system, to include a far orbiting brown dwarf with the world as described.

Sirius (Dingir / Solomani Rim 1629) - Same concern. The A1 V star is too young to have more that a few comets. Not 8 worlds.

Deneb (Usani / Deneb 1925) - Same concern, the A2 Ia star is too young to have any worlds, let alone the 14 it is supposed to have.

I'm quite sure if I did the analysis I could find more examples.

I'd also like to bring up the opposite side of this problem, for example:

0202 Carthage B3107B9-C Na Pi { 2 } (F6C+2) [896D] BD 724 13 Im M2 V


Carthage (Deneb 0202), has an M2 V star, about as small as you're going to get, with 4 gas giants in the system isn't going to have 13 worlds. The tidal forces won't let the planets remain in stable orbit for long even as moons around the gas giants, and the star is too small to support that many orbits.

 

[whulorigan]

Sirius (Dingir / Solomani Rim 1629) - Same concern. The A1 V star is too young to have more that a few comets. Not 8 worlds.

Deneb (Usani / Deneb 1925) - Same concern, the A2 Ia star is too young to have any worlds, let alone the 14 it is supposed to have.

Canonically in earlier rulesets, Sirius was always just an asteroid belt (at best - many of these were artificially relocated to the system).

From CT: S10 (Solomani Rim):

The belt at Sirius is actually made up of artificial satellites, mostly planetoids moved from other nearby systems. Sirius has no significant natural satellites, but its position makes it important as a waystation for commercial traffic.

This was a significant factor in the Interstellar Wars, as Sirius at the time acted as a natural "dead-end" or "choke-point" for J-2 Jump-traffic (and protected Terra from the Vilani).

However, in T5 keep in mind the following:

T5 Core Rules p.431:

W Worlds. The number of worlds in the system = Main-World + Belts + Gas Giants + Stars + 2D. This number does not include Worldlets and Satellites (other than the Mainworld if it is a Satellite).

So the "8 worlds" of Sirius would include both* stars and the "Main Belt", and possibly 5 other planetoid belts.

Compare the Terra System, which is listed with 10 worlds (Sol*, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Mainbelt, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune).

* - Note: I am not sure if the T5 World-notation, when it mentions "stars", is meant to include the central star as well, or companion-stars only. If I read it at face value, you include the central star as well).
​

But you are correct that Sirius will need to be carefully addressed unless there is a canon change in the works.

Deneb is trickier. Deneb historically has had no Gas Giants listed. Even though most of those worlds could be planetoid belts, there is canonically at least one moderate-sized planet at Deneb (the main-world).

Antares (Antares / Antares 2421) - The extended data for this system lists 12 worlds, including a gas giant. If this is really supposed to be Antares (the star), it should have exactly 0 planets, and a dust cloud.

1 (or 2) of those "worlds" would be the star(s) themselves, another is/are the aforementioned Gas Giant(s), and yet another of those is the mainworld, which in this case is an Asteroid Belt according to the T5SS on TravellerMap. Some of the rest could be belts/debris as well.

As an alternative, during a discussion of supernova candidates in the Imperium, and to match the original UWP: A762ADA-D, it was considered to make the Antares system a trinary system, to include a far orbiting brown dwarf with the world as described.

That could be a good solution as well.

 

[Dagrill]

Now, to the cases above...
Tondoul (Spinward Marches 0739): E5136A7-7
Saxe (Spinward Marches 0231): EAA5543-8

Hi Don,

Both worlds are outside the 3I, so I have difficulty seeing how they can survive with a trace and an exotic atmosphere respectively given they are similar to our current TL.

Also can I query Sif A765867-7 (Trojan Reach 0820) it's a colony but the only human worlds within J6 are too low tech or low pop to support a colony at that distance. It's in Mongoose Aslan so I suspect tis won't be changed in the OTU,

Kind Regards

David

 

[tjoneslo]

So the "8 worlds" of Sirius would include both* stars and the "Main Belt", and possibly 5 other planetoid belts.

In real life, I know dangerous ground, the A class main sequence stars (like Sirius), and the giant stars (like Deneb and Antares) won't have anything in the system other than a cloud of dust. There hasn't been time for the accretion process to create anything larger. You might be able to persuade me that one world (e.g. Deneb's main world) is a captured planet ejected from another system a billion years ago.

From a rules perspective, the 5 other planetoid belts should be listed in the PBG number. Except the rules don't allow generation of 5 (or 6) belts. So we have a disconnect between what should happen in real life and the rules as written.

 

[whulorigan]

In real life, I know dangerous ground, the A class main sequence stars (like Sirius), and the giant stars (like Deneb and Antares) won't have anything in the system other than a cloud of dust. There hasn't been time for the accretion process to create anything larger. You might be able to persuade me that one world (e.g. Deneb's main world) is a captured planet ejected from another system a billion years ago.

Yes, I know. I am stretching a bit for an explanation.

From a rules perspective, the 5 other planetoid belts should be listed in the PBG number. Except the rules don't allow generation of 5 (or 6) belts. So we have a disconnect between what should happen in real life and the rules as written.

Both good points.

Perhaps the star-type versus number of worlds and/or world-types should be addressed in the T5 Errata thread.

 

[DonM]

Both worlds are outside the 3I, so I have difficulty seeing how they can survive with a trace and an exotic atmosphere respectively given they are similar to our current TL.

Also can I query Sif A765867-7 (Trojan Reach 0820) it's a colony but the only human worlds within J6 are too low tech or low pop to support a colony at that distance. It's in Mongoose Aslan so I suspect tis won't be changed in the OTU.

One of the base assumptions was the classic TL limits for atmospheres...

For worlds with non-native populations...
Atm 4, 7 or 9, min TL 5
Atm 3, min TL 6
Atm 0-2, min TL 7
Atm A-B, min TL 8
Atm C, min TL 9

Are you proposing a different set of TL limits?

Oh, and Sif looks like an ownership issue. That's on the list for another pass. We tried to drop O:xxxx codes in to remind us to fix those :rofl:

 

[DonM]

Oh, the W values! That sucker is going to be its own pass. There's some ugliness in the W values. Not to mention the canon checking.

But altering the ones we know (Regina, Terra, Darrian, Antares, Deneb, off hand those are the ones I remember)... I'll note that.

The main problem with W is that it always currently adds 2. You really cannot add 2 to Antares or Sirius. Deneb is a special case.

 

[whulorigan]

Oh, the W values! That sucker is going to be its own pass. There's some ugliness in the W values. Not to mention the canon checking.

But altering the ones we know (Regina, Terra, Darrian, Antares, Deneb, off hand those are the ones I remember)... I'll note that.

Don't forget Sirius.

And probably Vland should be double-checked against DGP: V&V

 

[DonM]

Don't forget Sirius.

And probably Vland should be double-checked against DGP: V&V

Yes, especially fixing the belts.

 

[Dagrill]

One of the base assumptions was the classic TL limits for atmospheres...
For worlds with non-native populations...
Atm 4, 7 or 9, min TL 5
Atm 3, min TL 6
Atm 0-2, min TL 7
Atm A-B, min TL 8
Atm C, min TL 9
Are you proposing a different set of TL limits?
:

Hi,

Can I suggest atmospheres 0-2 be raised to min TL8 and population limited to 3- for world atmospheres 0-3, A, B & C under TL9.

I can make a T5 starship at TL8, with an early J drive. If there were rules (TL stage effects) for early frame & plate hulls and computers, it would be possible to make a starship at TL7,


Kind Regards

David

 

[savage]

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but remember that we have the Ancients (and other races) in the background. Fixing 3I and some stellar data makes sense. However, there should be some strange, clearly manipulated, features in various UWPs to justify all of those 3I research stations. I suspect, most research stations around are studying scientific oddities not work that could be completed on a Sector capital. Some systems with stellar anomalies keeps the Traveller universe an interesting mystery.

 

[whulorigan]

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but remember that we have the Ancients (and other races) in the background. Fixing 3I and some stellar data makes sense. However, there should be some strange, clearly manipulated, features in various UWPs to justify all of those 3I research stations. I suspect, most research stations around are studying scientific oddities not work that could be completed on a Sector capital. Some systems with stellar anomalies keeps the Traveller universe an interesting mystery.

True enough. In fact, that is how I would explain the "MD" type star in the Regina System. There should not be any white-dwarf stars "cool enough" to rate an MD code. But Yaskoydray created a pocket-universe in the Regina system. He must have gotten the massive amount of energy necessary to create the pocket universe from somewhere, as well as the energy to ignite and move a Gas Giant from the proto-Regina system into it and then pinch it off.

 

[Garnfellow]

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but remember that we have the Ancients (and other races) in the background. Fixing 3I and some stellar data makes sense. However, there should be some strange, clearly manipulated, features in various UWPs to justify all of those 3I research stations. I suspect, most research stations around are studying scientific oddities not work that could be completed on a Sector capital. Some systems with stellar anomalies keeps the Traveller universe an interesting mystery.

I'm a little torn on this. On one hand, I completely see the value of retaining a certain level of strangeness/implausibility in the data. Heck, real life is suffused with it.

But on the other hand, I think there might already be too many examples in canon of worlds or systems where "The Ancients Did This." I'm not sure I really need to see any more -- the idea gets cheapened a little every time it gets trotted back out.

 

[Garnfellow]

I am a little curious about Phase 2 of the sector data.

Will it be filling in some of the missing sectors that Joshua mentioned, like Dark Nebula? Adding extended system details like climate? Or providing data for different eras of the T5 sectors?

Speaking of climate, GURPS Traveller has comprehensive climate data for at least two sectors (the Marches and the Rim) that could be converted to T5 codes and added. Many worlds detailed in the GURPS books have also been designated as satellites or tide-locked, which are also given T5 codes.

 

[savage]

But on the other hand, I think there might already be too many examples in canon of worlds or systems where "The Ancients Did This." I'm not sure I really need to see any more -- the idea gets cheapened a little every time it gets trotted back out.

Good point. What I am suggesting is that we make sure we don't undo the work of the ancients. Also, look at the modern Earth at our TL. We try to change all sorts of things. There we're many separate groups in the Ancient society for a time. Not everything was the work of one powerful leader.

I don't want to digress into debate on a "problems" with the system data thread. Just want to be certain we keep this in mind and don't overfix the universe.

 

[rancke]

Antares (Antares / Antares 2421) - The extended data for this system lists 12 worlds, including a gas giant. If this is really supposed to be Antares (the star), it should have exactly 0 planets, and a dust cloud.

As an alternative, during a discussion of supernova candidates in the Imperium, and to match the original UWP: A762ADA-D, it was considered to make the Antares system a trinary system, to include a far orbiting brown dwarf with the world as described.

Sirius (Dingir / Solomani Rim 1629) - Same concern. The A1 V star is too young to have more that a few comets. Not 8 worlds.

Deneb (Usani / Deneb 1925) - Same concern, the A2 Ia star is too young to have any worlds, let alone the 14 it is supposed to have.

I don't really think that sticking 100% to the current scientific worldview is necessary. Sure, everything else being equal, I too would prefer something realistic, but I don't think realism is as important as interesting and fun star systems. Given a choice between a Deneb with worlds around and a totally useless planet-free Deneb, I'm going with the planets. The atmospheric conditions that I came up with for Forboldn may be impossible, but I think that they make for some interesting societies.

Sirius is different because canon explicitly says that it didn't have any planets back in the days of the Interstellar Wars.

"Realism is good, fun is better."


Hans