T5 - 2D Higher Is Better

[McPerth]

One of the things I dislike about the Mongoose system (and all standardized task systems, for that matter) is that a +1 to EDU is a +1 to everything covered by that stat.

A +1 to DEX is a +1 to Dancing as well as manual Piloting as well as firing a pistol. All three are very different skills.

A +1 EDU helps the character with being a Lawyer, Historian, and Writer.

I don't think, if you go to Law school, that is helps you write best sellers or know the particulars of the Barbarian invasions of Rome. Yet the stat increase does help in all those areas.

This is due to defining a character with only 6 stats. In D&D, also with 6 stats, similar problems arised. In P&P, with 10 stats, itr happened less, and if you had a game with 100 stats the problema would be nearly offset, but it would probably be unplayable due to sheer bookkeping.

Yes. Law school should net one a Law 2 (or 3 depending on version) and not a +1 to EDU stat.

That depends on the traveller versión you talk about. In T4 any schooling gave the character +1 edu per year, aside from any skill achieved. And in T4 the stats were decisive...

I explained my opinion about this in T4 in this post (probably not applicable to T5)

 

[rancke]

Coming from a CT perspective, different skill levels means different levels of expertise. Skill-2 in Engineering is not necessarily equivalent to a Skill-2 Navigator.

Is that also the case with T5 though?

But to this point that you make:

That's pretty much how CT defined the Medical skill. Skill-1 is basic knowledge in the field. Skill-2 is a skilled nurse or paramedic. Skill-3 is a doctor, and so on.

Yes, and as that's the only example given in all of CT (AFAIK), I initially believed that this was how it was meant to be across the board (Giving rise to some dissatisfaction with the character generation rules). But I recently had a discussion that persuaded me (reluctantly, as I said) that with 2D resolution skill-2 is professional standard.

One of the things I dislike about the Mongoose system (and all standardized task systems, for that matter) is that a +1 to EDU is a +1 to everything covered by that stat.

A +1 to DEX is a +1 to Dancing as well as manual Piloting as well as firing a pistol. All three are very different skills.

A +1 EDU helps the character with being a Lawyer, Historian, and Writer.

I don't think, if you go to Law school, that is helps you write best sellers or know the particulars of the Barbarian invasions of Rome. Yet the stat increase does help in all those areas.

That's just a result of the simplification inherent in the Traveller skill resolution system. If you want to distinguish between Dancing and Piloting, you have to introduce talents or the attribute Grace or something. To distinguish between Lawyer and Historian you need to introduce Rhetoric and Scolarship. And while you're at it, what about the very different skills needed by a trial lawyer and a patents lawyer?

Personally I've always found that Traveller skills are too coarse for my taste, but I know that there are people who laud Traveller for having so few skills and resent any attempt at skill proliferation (and people who want to reduce the number of skills).

If you want Edu to affect some Edu skills and not others, you will have to introduce a way to figure out which to include and which to exclude. If you prefer simple rules, don't complain about their lack of complexity.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

That depends on the traveller versión you talk about. In T4 any schooling gave the character +1 edu per year, aside from any skill achieved. And in T4 the stats were decisive...

I'm referring to logic not a game rule. In the US, Law school isn't designed to increase general knowledge. It can be 2 year course that is VERY focused.

 

[rancke]

I'm referring to logic not a game rule. In the US, Law school isn't designed to increase general knowledge. It can be 2 year course that is VERY focused.

I wasn't aware that there was a rule for going to law school in any Traveller version.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

This is due to defining a character with only 6 stats.

Not quite. It's due to how those six stats are used. CT does a brilliant job of making each task unique, in the hands of the Ref. A stat can have a lot of influence over the outcome or none at all.

Yes, and as that's the only example given in all of CT (AFAIK), I initially believed that this was how it was meant to be across the board (Giving rise to some dissatisfaction with the character generation rules). But I recently had a discussion that persuaded me (reluctantly, as I said) that with 2D resolution skill-2 is professional standard.

There are other examples given, if you look.

For example, The throw to avoid a dangerous situation when doing a non-standard action in Zero-G is 10+. It's easy to go floating out of control unless you are trained. Any high stat is not going to help you in this case. But, Vacc Suit skill will give you a +4 per level, showing us how important experience is in this instance. Vacc Suit-2 means you succeed 100% of the time. Thus, Vacc Suit-2 is "professional" level, with this skill.

 

[aramis]

Heh. This is slightly off topic, and yet perhaps not so much after all. As I have reluctantly been persuaded, Skill-2 corresponds to a professional level of expertise. Yet somehow I feel that a trained professional should be able to deal with difficult tasks. That's why I hire a plumber or a carpenter to fix things for me: to deal with difficult tasks. If I were to adopt this TiH system, I would take it to mean that Skill-1 corresponded to apprentice, Skill-2 to journeyman, Skill-3 to master, and Skill-4 to expert. (I would, of course, house-rule character creation to provide one or more skill-3s for most fully-trained characters).

And then I'd feel compelled to change to 3D6 or D20 or D100 for skill resolution. :devil:


Hans

In CT, MT, skill 3 is professional... as evidenced by Dr being Medical 3. But those systems have lower levels of skill than TNE, T4, or T5.
Note that in MT, Skill 3 stat 5-9 is a +4 DM, and extra time reduces the difficulty by a step, making the throw 7+ on 2d+4; this means a 35/36=97.6% chance. This is the same breakpoint for the DGP-CT task system.

In TNE, it's about asset (stat+skill) of 10+ including skill 1. Extra time drops difficulty by one, making TN 2x asset; this makes it a 20 or less. note that a 9 asset would be TN18, below the rate for

For T4.0 without TIH, it's Asset 11+ including skill 1; with TIH, it's asset 11+ and skill 3+. Either way, extra time is -1 difficulty step, reducing the needed dice from 2.5d to 2d..

T4.1 or T5, where difficulties are full dice, it's Asset 11+ including skill 3, due to TIH.

MGT, it's 8+ on 2d6 + Statmod + skill -2 for difficult, or 10+. with extra time, we get to 8+. To make that an unmodified 3+, we need skill 3+ and att mod 2+ (for stat 11+)

This maps across CT+DGP-CT, MT, TNE, T4/T4.1, MGT and T5.
Only in CT and MT is a high stat not required; in CT without DGP, it's not defined to effects, and in CT+DGP and MT, it's stat 5.

If we choose a different breakpoint difficulty...
Formidable... MT is 11+ on 2d6+4 with extra time, roughly 58%, and skill 3 att 5-9 has a chance without extra time, shooting for 15+ on 2d6+4, or 1/12, or roughly 9%.

In TNE to get 55%, we need asset 11 including skill 1 and extra time; but it's 5.5- on 1d20 without, for 25% chance without extra time. A rather significant improvement.

T4.0, formidable is 3d; 2.5d with extra time. Asset 11 on 2.5d is 96%, on 3d, 63%.
T4.1 and t5, Formidable with asset 11+ and skill 3 is 5d for asset or less, or about 8%, and extra time reduces it to 3d, which gives 65%.

MGT formidable is a DM-6; with max extra time, it's DM-4. with the same stat +2 and Skill 3, it's an unmodified 9+ and 7+, making the extra time 58%, and without it, 28%.

TNE to T5, including MGT, the Skill 3 asset 11 maps to roughly the same percentages for difficult and formidable tasks.

And, just for giggles, 2300, where a doctor is medical 3 stat 10-14 (on a 1-20 scale), difficult 11+ with extra time is shooting for 7+ with a +5, for a 2+ unmodified, on 1d10, or 90%. Formidable is 15+, so it's 10% without extra time, and 6+ with it, for 50%. A surprisingly good map to all post MT levels.

Unfortunately, the different editions make skill 3 variably difficult to achieve...
In CT, it's hard but doable to get it in term 1 in all basic careers with ranks, and with scouts, but is rare. Medical school grants it at year 8 of CGen in advanced, and characters in the field can, if lucky, get there.
MT, it is doable in any career, and considerably more frequent in careers with ranks. Advanced careers, same as CT.
In TNE, every character can get there in term 2, most in term 1 if promoted or special duty.
In T4, Every career can do so in term 1
In T5, I'm not certain; if I understand knowledges correctly, you have to have a knowledge 3 before gaining skill 3, so that's 6 levels, so it requires either an automatic skill or a second term.
In MGT, it can be one term, as all careers have ranks, even if they lack rank titles, if the special duty lines up, but usually 2.
In 2300, core skills to career are level 2, and level 3 takes 2 skill points, so it's possible to get there by age 19.

So, while the odds in T5 are not commensurate with CT nor MT, they are with all other editions, and skill 3 is pretty much the same across the board... but in CT and MT, it's att 5-9; in TNE it's att 8; in T4 att 8, T5 att 5+a relevant knowledge at 3 and skill 3...

 

[HG_B]

So, while the odds in T5 are not commensurate with CT nor MT, they are with all other editions, and skill 3 is pretty much the same across the board... but in CT and MT, it's att 5-9; in TNE it's att 8; in T4 att 8, T5 att 5+a relevant knowledge at 3 and skill 3...

In MgT Med-2 is considered an M.D. per RAW. Med-3 is an experienced Specialist.

 

[GypsyComet]

In MgT Med-2 is considered an M.D. per RAW. Med-3 is an experienced Specialist.

Though Medic-3 is still possible in one or two terms. Medical School graduation gets you that Medic-2 in your first term, and if you stay in Doctor careers, it will be much higher unless you avoid those skill tables.

 

[HG_B]

Though Medic-3 is still possible in one or two terms. Medical School graduation gets you that Medic-2 in your first term, and if you stay in Doctor careers, it will be much higher unless you avoid those skill tables.

Yes. I was simply stating what the threshold for a doctorate level of professionalism was in MgT. In Mgt the rules would indicate that ones general edu (K-12) is of high quality, allowing one to need only specialized training to achieve expertise in scientific/technical areas. Obviating the need for college level general ed.

 

[McPerth]

In the US (...)

But othre countries have other student curriculums...

Until a few years ago, in Spain you had to choose a voluntary assignature, unrelated to what you studied, in university, as personal developement.

I wasn't aware that there was a rule for going to law school in any Traveller version.

Not specifically, but the rule of a sabatical (LBB2, page 42; 4 years and Cr 70000 to obtain level 2 in a skill) might well represent it. If you carácter takes a sabatical to learn legal 2, I guess that's where he/she has been those years.

Not quite. It's due to how those six stats are used. CT does a brilliant job of making each task unique, in the hands of the Ref. A stat can have a lot of influence over the outcome or none at all.

Even so, limited to 6 stats, they must be quite broad, while tto many more specific stats make the game too clumsy to play.

In CT, MT, skill 3 is professional... as evidenced by Dr being Medical 3.

I guess that is applicable to any skill needing you to go to university, level 3 maning universitary graduate level, not profesional, while other fields, not requiring such university graduate, may well need lower level to be profesional. And remember not all profesionals in medicine are doctors, so skill 2 (e.g. a nurse) is also professional level.

In MgT Med-2 is considered an M.D. per RAW. Med-3 is an experienced Specialist.

Yes, this is one of the hard facts that change from CT to MgT. I guess that's because in MgT skill 0 is what in most cases would be level 1 in CT (so, to keep the same progression, in MgT level 0 would be the medic represented in CT by level 1, MgT level 1 the nurse represented in CT as level 2, etc...). Remember level 0 was a very rare occurence in CT.

 

[HG_B]

But othre countries have other student curriculums...

True. But I doubt Marc was using other systems as his example. Maybe the system in the U.K.

Yes, this is one of the hard facts that change from CT to MgT. I guess that's because in MgT skill 0 is what in most cases would be level 1 in CT (so, to keep the same progression, in MgT level 0 would be the medic represented in CT by level 1, MgT level 1 the nurse represented in CT as level 2, etc...). Remember level 0 was a very rare occurence in CT.

Yep, I remember now. Actually, I don't recall a level 0 in CT. But, I hardly have all the material anymore.

 

[rancke]

There are other examples given, if you look.

And interpret. There are no other explicit statements to that effect.

For example, The throw to avoid a dangerous situation when doing a non-standard action in Zero-G is 10+. It's easy to go floating out of control unless you are trained. Any high stat is not going to help you in this case. But, Vacc Suit skill will give you a +4 per level, showing us how important experience is in this instance. Vacc Suit-2 means you succeed 100% of the time. Thus, Vacc Suit-2 is "professional" level, with this skill.

But it doesn't say that someone with Vacc Suit-2 is qualified to be a professional vaccsuiter (somone who wears a vacc suit for a living?!?). Nor do I believe that someone whose only skill is Vacc Suit-2 would be qualified to be a professional belter (belt prospector). For that you might need Belter-3 . Mind you, Belter-3 would probably default to Vacc Suit-2, Xero-G-2, and perhaps Life Support-2.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Yep, I remember now. Actually, I don't recall a level 0 in CT. But, I hardly have all the material anymore.

And yet, in LBB2, page 11, the mínimum skill level to be a steward in a ship (so the minimum profesional level) is Steward 0 :CoW:...

 

[mike wightman]

Four years at a college/university gives you +2 in a non-weapon skill in CT. I consider this level of expertise to be expert.

 

[Supplement Four]

Four years at a college/university gives you +2 in a non-weapon skill in CT. I consider this level of expertise to be expert.

When you get out of college, you're an expert?

What kind of new college graduates have you been hanging around with? o:

 

[mike wightman]

The kind that are trained in UK universities and are experts in their fields.

That's pretty much the point of a UK first degree.

I would consider myself to be an expert in general chemistry from my BSc course.

If I did an MSc or PhD I would be narrowing my field of expertise at each additional level.

 

[Supplement Four]

The kind that are trained in UK universities and are experts in their fields.

Must be a lot different than US universities.

I've got a degree in Marketing, and I sure wouldn't call myself an expert in the field.

 

[Supplement Four]

And yet, in LBB2, page 11, the mínimum skill level to be a steward in a ship (so the minimum profesional level) is Steward 0 :CoW:...

That's another good example showing that, in CT, different levels are defined differently, depending on their use.

 

[HG_B]

Must be a lot different than US universities.

I've got a degree in Marketing, and I sure wouldn't call myself an expert in the field.

That's because you are not dealing with an exact science by ANY stretch of the imagination. I am VERY good at mktg (based on results maybe an expert) and never took at course in it. I got to the point where I wouldn't hire MBA's because they certainly didn't learn how to successfully run a business...

Now, my uncle graduated from a U.S. Univ with a B.S. Chem. He successfully designed ground to air and air to air chemical fueled rockets. Probably an expert...

 

[GypsyComet]

Remember level 0 was a very rare occurence in CT.

Only in that it was rarely a result of the career process. It was used in just about every adventure GDW published, and was explicitly allowed as Referee fiat at the end of the Book 1 skills chapter for a fair list of skills.