T5 - 2D Higher Is Better

[Supplement Four]

2D Higher Is Better - a T5 Task System Conversion



2D: Every task in T5 can now be resolved using only two dice, rolling higher is better. Results cannot obviously be exactly the same in each system, but the success chance is consistently within 10%.

14: Your starting target number is 14. Add or subtract modifiers to find your final target number. Tasks succeed when this number or more are thrown on 2D.

Remember that, since this is a higher is better system, mods that make the task easier are negative mods. Modifiers that make the task harder are positive mods, since they make the target number higher. As in T5 originally, all mods are applied to the target number and never the dice throw.

Dice Mod: The number of dice used in a standard T5 task will translate to a modifier in this 2D Higher is Better system. Use the modifier from the Dice Mod table (which can be quickly memorized as the numbers are spread by 4 points and similar to the MegaTraveller Difficulty Numbers).

[b]
DICE MOD TABLE

T5 D      2D Mod
-----     --------
 1D          -3
 2D          --
 3D          +3
 
 4D          +7
 5D         +11
 6D         +15
 
 7D         +19
 8D         +23
 9D         +27

10D         +31[/b]

EXAMPLE 1 from page 213 T5

Baron Joseph Hemdian 99988C Fighting-3 Slug Thrower-2

Speed=0 (standing)

5-4 = 1 (apparent size)

4D < C + S + Speed + Apparent Size + Mods

4D < 9 + 5 + 0 + 1

4D < 15 (This is a 66% Chance).



For 2D Higher is Better....

2D > 14 - 9 - 5 - 1 + 7

2D > 6 (This is a 72% chance).









EXAMPLE 2 from page 160 T5

Meister Exampledide 777777 Forensics-2

To gather samples
Average 2D < Dex + Forensics

2D < 9 (This is an 83% chance).



For 2D Higher is Better....

2D > 14 - 7 - 2

2D > 5 (This is an 83% chance).







EXAMPLE 3 from page 160 T5

Joe Gambler 789A98 Gambling-2

To win a low risk game
Difficult (3D) < Dex + Gambling

+1D This Is Hard

4D < 8 + 2

4D < 10 (This is a 16% Chance)



For 2D Higher is Better....

2D > 14 - 8 - 2 + 7

2D > 11 (This is a 8% Chance)









2D Lower IS Better

If you prefer a lower is better system, but only want to use two dice, LOOK HERE.

 

[Supplement Four]

Once you learn the system (which isn't hard at all, as you can see), I find that I can read 2D tasks almost as well as if they were written that way.

For example, when I see a task in the T5 book...

To tune the jump drives to minimum time in jump (1 hour)
Difficult (3D) < Edu + Drives

It's easy to figure out that the 2D target number is:

14 +3 - Edu - Drives skill

It's that easy.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Dice Mod Table is also a Difficulty Table

[b]
DICE MOD TABLE

T5 D      2D Mod       Difficulty
-----     --------     ----------
 1D          -3          Easy
 2D          --          Average
 3D          +3          Difficult
 
 4D          +7          Formidable
 5D         +11          Staggering
 6D         +15          Hopeless
 
 7D         +19          Impossible
 8D         +23          Beyond Impossible
 9D         +27          Hasty Beyond Impossible

10D         +31          Double Hasty Beyond Impossible[/b]

Thus, if you wanted to make up your own 2D tasks, you can easily do it without first figuring the task using the T5 method.

Target Number = 14 + Difficulty - Characteristic - Skill

And, you would add any appropriate modifiers (like Apparent Size).









Example

Eneri Ritt 777777 Skill-2

In a game, Eneri needs to pull off a task, and the Ref decides that the task will be Difficult.

Target Number = 14 + Diff - Char - Skill

TN = 14 + 3 - 7 - 2

2D for 8+









Example

Here's a combat example from the book, page 213.

Sergeant Jon Locke 888747 Fighting-1 Slug Thrower-2, armed with a Rifle, finds himself in a firefight with Darrian Mercenaries.



Combat Modifiers.

Range provides Difficulty. Range is Medium (Range=3). That's a +3 Mod.

Target Speed is a mod. The Darrian Mercenary target is standing still (S=0). +0 Mod.

Apparent Size is a mod. The Darrian Mercenary is Size=5. Apparent Size is Target Size minus Range. 5 - 3 = 2. That's a -2 Mod.



The 2D Task is:

2D > 14 - Dex - Skill + 3 + 0 - 2

2D> 14 - 8 - 3 + 3 + 0 - 2

2D for 4+
.
.
.
.
.

 

[thalassogen]

May I suggest du just make the target number static (i.e. only based on difficulty) and apply stat and skill as positive modifiers to the roll? Seems more intuitive to me.

 

[atpollard]

Target Number = 14 + Difficulty - Characteristic - Skill

Probably off topic (and discussed to death) but ... how many dice (or -4 steps) does the "This is Hard" rule add?
Both T5 and your alternative seem dominated by attribute over skill and I wondered (in 2d6 statistics familiar to me) how much "T.I.H." mitigates that.

... you can just point me somewhere else if you have a link handy.

 

[Supplement Four]

May I suggest du just make the target number static (i.e. only based on difficulty) and apply stat and skill as positive modifiers to the roll? Seems more intuitive to me.

Can you give me an example task showing what you mean? I understand what you are asking, but I'm not quite sure I follow how it would work--provided that this 2D Higher is Better system is mean to replace the multi-dice system from T5 but still report the same ballpark success chance.

If you are suggesting that modifiers be added to the dice throw, I wanted to stay away from that because it's a T5 rule. All modifiers are applied to the target number and not the dice roll. I was trying to change as few things about T5 as possible and still replace its task system.

I'm thinking the Target Number 14 base is static, which is impossible to throw on 2D without modifiers. A character's experience (skill) and natural ability (characteristic) bring that number down, making it obtainable.

But, I am interested in your idea. Example please?

 

[atpollard]

Example please?

I think that he just meant this:

[b]TARGET NUMBER TABLE

T5 D      2D Target     Difficulty
-----     --------     ----------
 1D          11          Easy
 2D          14          Average
 3D          17          Difficult
 
 4D          21          Formidable
 5D          25          Staggering
 6D          29          Hopeless
 
 7D          33          Impossible
 8D          37          Beyond Impossible
 9D          41          Hasty Beyond Impossible

10D          45          Double Hasty Beyond Impossible[/b]

[B]Target Number = (2D Target) - Characteristic - Skill[/B]

 

[Supplement Four]

Probably off topic (and discussed to death) but ... how many dice (or -4 steps) does the "This is Hard" rule add?

It would move the difficulty up a step. In this case, it's usually a +4 modifier, but don't think in those terms. Think difficulty on the chart (because it's only 3 points between Easy and Average, and 3 points between Average and Difficult).

So, the best way to think about the TiH rule is to think, "This is Hard means +1 Difficulty Level".





This Is Hard! Rule...

And, how would you implement it without thinking in T5 multi-dice terms? Ask yourself, "Is the Difficulty number (Easy = 1, Average = 2, Difficulty = 3, and so on) higher than Skill level? If so, add one difficulty level."

Or, another way to think about it is: Easy Difficulty requires Skill-1. Average Difficulty requires Skill-2. Difficult Difficulty requires Skill-3. Formidable Difficulty requires Skill-4, and so on. If skill requirement isn't met, then add one difficulty level.

Both T5 and your solution seem dominated by attribute over skill and I wondered (in 2d6 statistics familiar to me) how much "T.I.H." mitigates that.

My goal was to express the multi-dice, roll low, T5 system using a 2D system, where higher is better. It was a tough cookie to crack! And, I'm quite happy with the results.

I wanted my 2D is higher substitute to be practically (as much as possible) interchangeable (success chance being close) with the T5 system.

Thus, I changed as little of the T5 system as possible. That's why you still see the characteristic dominance. All I really did was replace the multi-dice difficulty with modifiers and added a static (14+) target number.

I want you to be able to play T5, as-is, without changing other rules, but using a 2D, higher is better task system.

If I were to completely re-write T5 (Man, what a chore that would be), I probably would change to a 2D, higher is better, task system that is different than what you see here.

This task system looks the way it does because I was trying to keep the flavor and atmosphere of the T5 task roll--but just do it in a 2D, higher is better format.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think that he just meant this:

[b]TARGET NUMBER TABLE

T5 D      2D Target     Difficulty
-----     --------     ----------
 1D          11          Easy
 2D          14          Average
 3D          17          Difficult
 
 4D          21          Formidable
 5D          25          Staggering
 6D          29          Hopeless
 
 7D          33          Impossible
 8D          37          Beyond Impossible
 9D          41          Hasty Beyond Impossible

10D          45          Double Hasty Beyond Impossible[/b]

[B]Target Number = (2D Target) - Characteristic - Skill[/B]

Sure. That would work.

I think I like the original way better because the numbers aren't as scary and odd looking, and they mirror what we are already used to (if you're familiar with MT or CT's UTP).

In other words, it's easy for me to remember +3 , +7, +11, etc than it is those targets.

But, yeah, those targets would work just the same.

 

[atpollard]

Sure. That would work.

I think I like the original way better because the numbers aren't as scary and odd looking, and they mirror what we are already used to (if you're familiar with MT or CT's UTP).

In other words, it's easy for me to remember +3 , +7, +11, etc than it is those targets.

But, yeah, those targets would work just the same.

Its just "Rule BEJ".
Its just "Rule BEH".

[EDIT: 'Cause I can't count.]

 

[Supplement Four]

Its just "Rule BEJ".

Not familiar with that acronym? BEJ?

Certainly, though, let's message this thing so that we get the easiest, most intuitive 2D higher is better system to use with T5.

Hell, it's already making me like the game better.

Plus, it destroys the mechanics issues between CT and T5, making sections of T5 quite useful for a CT game.

 

[atpollard]

Not familiar with that acronym? BEJ?

A pun on "Rule 68A" [My personal favorite system.]
B=11
E=14
J H=17 (because you skip the letter "I" to avoid confusion with the number "1")

[EDIT: 'Cause I can't count.]

 

[Supplement Four]

A pun on "Rule 68A" [My personal favorite system.]
B=11
E=14
J=17 (because you skip the letter "I" to avoid confusion with the number "1")

Lovin' it!



Commentary

One of the problems I have with the T5 multi-dice system is that it is so fiddly. There's so much stopping here to count this, rolling that and then counting. I don't like it.

With this roll high system, I can see players making shortcuts. For example, players will know Char + Skill. They'll have that handy--memorized, if they know their characters. A player will know that his 777777 Skill-2 character has a personal modifier of -9.

And, knowing that the starting target is 14, then that player knows that his personal starting target is 5. He just need to add difficulty (and any appropriate mods.).

Thus, when he hears that it is a Difficult shot, he knows, right then, that his target number is 8.

If he hears that his task is Easy, then he knows he automatically succeeds (target of 2).

If he hears that his task is Formidable, then his knows his target is 12.

And, if he hears that his task is anything harder than Formidable, then he'll know that the task is impossible for him (unless there is some type of Spec Success system in place--say boxcars always succeeds).



That's a pretty quick task calculation. Easy is automatic. Staggering or harder is impossible. Average is 5+. Difficult is 8+. Formidable is 12+.

That's it. That's all the task possibilities for this character on this specific type of task: Auto - 2 - 8 - 12 - Impossible.

 

[Supplement Four]

T5 CONVERSION - 2D HIGHER IS BETTER TASK SYSTEM



Tasks can be express as:


2D > E + D - C - S - M



E = Hexidecimal notation for the number 14

D = Difficulty modifier

C = Characteristic

S = Skill

M = Modifiers

EDCSM is pronounced "Ed-siz-um"







COMMON COMBAT MODIFIERS

Apparent Size: Target Size minus Range Number (if result is less than zero, then target cannot be hit because it cannot be seen).

For example, Humans are Size=5. If targeted at Medium Range, then Range=3. 5 - 3 = 2. Thus, the modifier would be -2. (Bigger targets are easier to hit, thus this is a negative modifier.)



Target Speed: Add target Speed number, where Standing = 0, Walking = 1, and Running = 2. (This modifier used only if target is moving laterally across the shooter's view. It is not used if the target is moving to or from the shooter.)

For example, a Human target is running across (L to R) a field that is being covered by an enemy. Running means Speed=2. Thus the modifier is +2. (Moving targets are harder to hit, thus the modifier is a positive.)

 

[thalassogen]

Example please?

EXAMPLE 2 from page 160 T5

Meister Exampledide 777777 Forensics-2

To gather samples
Average 2D < Dex + Forensics

14 < 2D + Dex + Forensics
14 < 2D + 7 + 2

EXAMPLE 3 from page 160 T5

Joe Gambler 789A98 Gambling-2

To win a low risk game
Difficult (3D) < Dex + Gambling

+1D This Is Hard

3D + 1D = 4D = 14 + 7 = 21

21 < Dex + Gambling
21 < 2D + 8 + 2


If I were to use the 2D roll high mechanic I would even "reduce" the difficulty culculation to:

7 + 3.5 * Number of Dice (round toward 14)

So that the following difficulties will be used

1D = 7 + 3.5 * 1 = 10.5 = 11
2D = 7 + 3.5 * 2 = 14.0 = 14
3D = 7 + 3.5 * 3 = 17.5 = 17
4D = 7 + 3.5 * 4 = 21.0 = 21
5D = 7 + 3.5 * 5 = 24.5 = 24
6D = 7 + 3.5 * 6 = 28.0 = 28
7D = 7 + 3.5 * 7 = 31.5 = 31
...

 

[Supplement Four]

So that the following difficulties will be used

1D = 7 + 3.5 * 1 = 10.5 = 11
2D = 7 + 3.5 * 2 = 14.0 = 14
3D = 7 + 3.5 * 3 = 17.5 = 17
4D = 7 + 3.5 * 4 = 21.0 = 21
5D = 7 + 3.5 * 5 = 24.5 = 24
6D = 7 + 3.5 * 6 = 28.0 = 28
7D = 7 + 3.5 * 7 = 31.5 = 31
...

Yeah, the 3.5 was tricky for me to use. You can round down or round up. I see that you did both, the way I did (you rounded up on 1D but rounded down on 3D).

What really needs to be done is some more testing at each level to find which choice reports the closest success chance to the results of a T5 task roll.

Because of the rounding, there's some wiggle room to fine tune the system for the best target numbers (as you have here) or modifiers (as I suggest).


But, yeah...target numbers like this or a static target number like I have suggested with modifiers, either will work. Use what suits you.

For me, I find it easiest to say...

OK, my base target is 14. And, I mod that for skill, characteristic, and difficulty.

And, my mods for difficulty are the same numbers I memorized for MegaTraveller. The base is 2D. So, if I see a T5 3D task, I know my mod is +3. If it's a 4D task, then my mod is +7. A 5D task is a +11 mod.

That's easiest for me. But, sure, I could definitely see people using a target number difficulty list.

 

[Supplement Four]

So that the following difficulties will be used

1D = 7 + 3.5 * 1 = 10.5 = 11
2D = 7 + 3.5 * 2 = 14.0 = 14
3D = 7 + 3.5 * 3 = 17.5 = 17
4D = 7 + 3.5 * 4 = 21.0 = 21
5D = 7 + 3.5 * 5 = 24.5 = 24
6D = 7 + 3.5 * 6 = 28.0 = 28
7D = 7 + 3.5 * 7 = 31.5 = 31
...

Here's a third option (Option one is using the 14 target and applying modifiers to it. Option two is using Thalassogen's different target for each difficulty idea.), if you don't mind breaking the T5 rule that all modifiers must be placed on the target and never the dice roll....

Let's call it: The E System.





The E System ("E" is hexadecimal notation for the number 14) is a version of the 2D Higher is Better system where the target number is static--like the 8+ required in CT combat, or the 8+ used in UGM or MGT tasks.

14+

Tasks succeed when 14+ is thrown on 2D.

The system is used exactly like the other version described earlier in the thread, except the modifiers are only applied to the 2D dice roll.

Remember, here, mods that increase success will be positive. Modifiers that decrease success chance will be a negative number.



Therefore, the typical E System task expression is:

2D + Characteristic + Skill - Difficulty > 14

Throw two dice. Add appropriate characteristic and skill. Subtract difficulty modifier. Task succeeds if total is 14+.





Example

Joe Testi 7777777 Admin-2

3D < 7 + 2

3D < 9



Translates to in E System

2D + 7 + 2 - 3 > 14

2D + 6 > 14




EDIT: The E System could also stand for "Easy" System...as in, easy 2D, Higher is Better system.

 

[Ulsyus]

Has anyone asked if this mechanic was considered officially for Traveller development post-CT instead of the many-dice option? The reasoning behind such, if there was, would be interesting to know.

 

[Supplement Four]

Has anyone asked if this mechanic was considered officially for Traveller development post-CT instead of the many-dice option? The reasoning behind such, if there was, would be interesting to know.

It's not official. It's a fan made option. There are so many options for T5 in the book as it stands now--different ways of achieving the same result--that it might be interesting to have something like the E-System or one of the other 2D conversions to show up as a variant option in some T5 support book. But, I really doubt that would happen. The majority of the T5 crowd, including Marc, seems married to the T5 system as it is.

But, hey. If you like it, here it is. That's why I posted it.

It just gives you another option in playing T5.





EDIT: OH, and it sure wasn't considered back when T5 was in development because I just created it over the last couple of days! I think, if a 2D option was considered for T5, it probably didn't look like the three versions I present in this thread. That's because my goal was to emulate T5 success chance. I want the 2D system to be able to be used instead of the multi-dice system, and that's only viable if the two mechanics provide success chance on tasks that are about the same.

 

[mike wightman]

Has anyone asked if this mechanic was considered officially for Traveller development post-CT instead of the many-dice option? The reasoning behind such, if there was, would be interesting to know.

Something very similar has been proposed many times before, as a fix for T4 and during the T5 playtest (there were an awful lot of people against the T4+ task system).