T4 gets a bad rap

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Emperor Valdamir:
Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that. But I still don't see how he's going to make any money off it, though it's definately a worthwhile project even if it's not likely to bring in the big bucks. I'm sure almost everyone in the CotI will buy a copy.

It depends on how he publishes it. If he keeps it to reasonable sized books (I like the T20 book, but it's honking huge!), it would be easy enough to do short print runs.

I exchanged email with the folks reprinting Dark Conspiracy, and they said that they could order print runs as small as 12 at a shot. The book publishing world is different than it was 10 years ago.

He could see direct, via his, and others, web sites, and see a profit.

It's a different model than the big print run, fill the distribution channels, get the shelf at Boarders (tm) model, but one you can turn a profit on.

You can get a book published for under a $1,000 these days. You send a pdf file to someplace like iuniverse.com, and you get listed (ISBN) and put in the Amazon and Barnes&Noble online catalogs.
You need to market yourself, but that's probably easier than beating feet to the more traditional publishing houses.

Here, Marc Miller has a market already, and a website to sell 'em from. He can order extra dead tree editions & sell 'em at cons, or to distributers.

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Emperor Valdamir:
Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that. But I still don't see how he's going to make any money off it, though it's definately a worthwhile project even if it's not likely to bring in the big bucks. I'm sure almost everyone in the CotI will buy a copy.

It depends on how he publishes it. If he keeps it to reasonable sized books (I like the T20 book, but it's honking huge!), it would be easy enough to do short print runs.

I exchanged email with the folks reprinting Dark Conspiracy, and they said that they could order print runs as small as 12 at a shot. The book publishing world is different than it was 10 years ago.

He could see direct, via his, and others, web sites, and see a profit.

It's a different model than the big print run, fill the distribution channels, get the shelf at Boarders (tm) model, but one you can turn a profit on.

You can get a book published for under a $1,000 these days. You send a pdf file to someplace like iuniverse.com, and you get listed (ISBN) and put in the Amazon and Barnes&Noble online catalogs.
You need to market yourself, but that's probably easier than beating feet to the more traditional publishing houses.

Here, Marc Miller has a market already, and a website to sell 'em from. He can order extra dead tree editions & sell 'em at cons, or to distributers.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by trader jim:

T-4 to me, seems "out of Kilter", "out of Phase"
Just dosent "do it"

dont like the deck plans in it, dont like the illistrations, dont like the style of writing.

T4

Core rules - good general improvements on game mechanics. Still prefer MT chargen. Didn't like half die. Don't care for MT or T4 starship gen. The best parts are the sections plagiarized from CT.

Notable Supplements:

Starships - I never liked this booklet. I suppose the rules were just too much for me.

Central Supply Catalog - a Must Have for Any game system! I'm amazed this hadn't been done before.

Emperor's Arsenal should have been the weapons version of CSC, but for some reason I didn't take to it.

I liked Pocket Empires a lot, and if the calculations were simpler I'd still like it a lot.

FFS2 proved that I'm a systems-analysis guy, not a gearhead guy.

The other supplements just didn't do anything special for me.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by trader jim:

T-4 to me, seems "out of Kilter", "out of Phase"
Just dosent "do it"

dont like the deck plans in it, dont like the illistrations, dont like the style of writing.

T4

Core rules - good general improvements on game mechanics. Still prefer MT chargen. Didn't like half die. Don't care for MT or T4 starship gen. The best parts are the sections plagiarized from CT.

Notable Supplements:

Starships - I never liked this booklet. I suppose the rules were just too much for me.

Central Supply Catalog - a Must Have for Any game system! I'm amazed this hadn't been done before.

Emperor's Arsenal should have been the weapons version of CSC, but for some reason I didn't take to it.

I liked Pocket Empires a lot, and if the calculations were simpler I'd still like it a lot.

FFS2 proved that I'm a systems-analysis guy, not a gearhead guy.

The other supplements just didn't do anything special for me.

 

[Jame]

I recently borrowed a friend's T4. It had potential, but some serious flaws and poor editing. I don't think some of them were paying close attention. The CSC, Emperor's Arsenal and Emperor's Vehicles were useable for inspiration, and the core rules seemed esentially workable, though. Best thing from chargen was getting one skill per year before promotions and other factors instead of per term.

 

[Jame]

I recently borrowed a friend's T4. It had potential, but some serious flaws and poor editing. I don't think some of them were paying close attention. The CSC, Emperor's Arsenal and Emperor's Vehicles were useable for inspiration, and the core rules seemed esentially workable, though. Best thing from chargen was getting one skill per year before promotions and other factors instead of per term.

 

[Ron]

Not counting the poor editing, Marc Miller's Travellers is a fine game. I have no problems with the task resolution system, although I would go with the traditional 2d6 system. My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive a new edition, I look forward to see what T5 will eventually bring to us.

 

[Ron]

Not counting the poor editing, Marc Miller's Travellers is a fine game. I have no problems with the task resolution system, although I would go with the traditional 2d6 system. My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive a new edition, I look forward to see what T5 will eventually bring to us.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive

Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive

Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)?

OK, I can, with difficulty, imagine an "awesome supplement" that requires spreadsheets. Although after FF&S1 I doubt it: extraordinary complexity is only justified if the results are porportunately consistant and realistic.

But "full of errors"? We must talk about this word "awesome". Perhaps you mean "awful"?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)?

OK, I can, with difficulty, imagine an "awesome supplement" that requires spreadsheets. Although after FF&S1 I doubt it: extraordinary complexity is only justified if the results are porportunately consistant and realistic.

But "full of errors"? We must talk about this word "awesome". Perhaps you mean "awful"?

 

[robject]

I've been trying out the T5 chargen system. It shows its T4 roots, and therefore says to me that T4 was pointed in the right direction. The T5 playtest stuff has incrementally improved almost every aspect of chargen, and has drawn in ideas from MT as well, such as a form of the wounding rules. While I never really cared for T4's chargen, it seems like the latest version of T4 (i.e. T5) is great for producing a rich background for players. They resemble each other so obviously, I can't see exactly why T5 plays better than T4, although somehow it does.

The only thing I've wondered about is whether using the task system during career resolution would make the system 'better' (for instance, rolling a Difficult task to get promoted). The T5 draft doesn't do this. Many people feel strongly that it should. I suppose I ought to try it and see.

At any rate, T4's chargen could be ripped out of its rulebook and replaced by the T5 draft. The substitution would be a seamless, significant improvement.

 

[robject]

I've been trying out the T5 chargen system. It shows its T4 roots, and therefore says to me that T4 was pointed in the right direction. The T5 playtest stuff has incrementally improved almost every aspect of chargen, and has drawn in ideas from MT as well, such as a form of the wounding rules. While I never really cared for T4's chargen, it seems like the latest version of T4 (i.e. T5) is great for producing a rich background for players. They resemble each other so obviously, I can't see exactly why T5 plays better than T4, although somehow it does.

The only thing I've wondered about is whether using the task system during career resolution would make the system 'better' (for instance, rolling a Difficult task to get promoted). The T5 draft doesn't do this. Many people feel strongly that it should. I suppose I ought to try it and see.

At any rate, T4's chargen could be ripped out of its rulebook and replaced by the T5 draft. The substitution would be a seamless, significant improvement.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Emperor Valdamir:
Personally, I don't see T5 ever being published. With GURPS Traveller and T20 on the market, T5 wouldn't sell enough to make it profitable. And like it or not, game companies are in the business to make a profit.

If you're interested, give the playtest material a try. They changed my mind.

I have strong opinions about Traveller -- I prefer CT, I like 2d6, and I found T4 full of ideas but hard to live with. But the playtest material for T5 (which used to be called T4.1) has so much good stuff in it, I'm already using it. I will buy the book -- and I don't like to buy a lot of material. The next game I referee will use T5's chargen rules, whether or not a rulebook is released. They simply rock.

Everything requires you to balance risks, to play a compelling game. From homeworld to education to career, the rules are improved and refined. Also, the risks are tangible (an injury might not kick you out immediately, but it might take points off your stats!) and the special rules fun. T5 chargen is a fresh, enjoyable, worthy successor to the Traveller line.

If the rest of T5 is like the chargen playtest, it will be a superior product.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Emperor Valdamir:
Personally, I don't see T5 ever being published. With GURPS Traveller and T20 on the market, T5 wouldn't sell enough to make it profitable. And like it or not, game companies are in the business to make a profit.

If you're interested, give the playtest material a try. They changed my mind.

I have strong opinions about Traveller -- I prefer CT, I like 2d6, and I found T4 full of ideas but hard to live with. But the playtest material for T5 (which used to be called T4.1) has so much good stuff in it, I'm already using it. I will buy the book -- and I don't like to buy a lot of material. The next game I referee will use T5's chargen rules, whether or not a rulebook is released. They simply rock.

Everything requires you to balance risks, to play a compelling game. From homeworld to education to career, the rules are improved and refined. Also, the risks are tangible (an injury might not kick you out immediately, but it might take points off your stats!) and the special rules fun. T5 chargen is a fresh, enjoyable, worthy successor to the Traveller line.

If the rest of T5 is like the chargen playtest, it will be a superior product.

 

[jackleg]

While I did not buy T4, I was able to look at a former friend's copy. What I saw did not really inspire to buy it. It seemed like I was seeing the same stuff from CT & MT. Nothing new in the mechanics section. The artwork did not fit the book(the color starships) and the large page artwork(b&w) while competent looked like no real effort or thought was put into it.

I looked thru the book several times. It did not say to me "Buy me because I am interesting". It said "Buy me because the word 'Traveller' is on the cover". I have owned the LBB, TTB, MT and TNE, and I would have bought this also, but it was bad!!!

It probably should have been issued as a sourcebook for the time period instead of an actual rpg.

 

[jackleg]

While I did not buy T4, I was able to look at a former friend's copy. What I saw did not really inspire to buy it. It seemed like I was seeing the same stuff from CT & MT. Nothing new in the mechanics section. The artwork did not fit the book(the color starships) and the large page artwork(b&w) while competent looked like no real effort or thought was put into it.

I looked thru the book several times. It did not say to me "Buy me because I am interesting". It said "Buy me because the word 'Traveller' is on the cover". I have owned the LBB, TTB, MT and TNE, and I would have bought this also, but it was bad!!!

It probably should have been issued as a sourcebook for the time period instead of an actual rpg.

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive

Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)? </font>[/QUOTE]I like to play roleplaying games, not calculator games. As such, I don't like any of T4's systems, Megatraveller, or GURPS: Traveller. I can barely stand High Guard, but I enjoyed Book 2. It is, by far, the best ship generation system in Traveller and one of the best in any game. It can be improved by adding more equipment options (as I have seen in the Internet).

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My big problem with this edition is the poor starship generation and combat rules. As Hunter had already convinced Marc to drop the half dice and I am sure that the gearhead section of T4 will not survive

Exqueeze me? I really hope you're not talking about FF&S2, the most truely awesome supplement ever created for any game (even if it is full of errors and needs a set of spreadsheets to use)? </font>[/QUOTE]I like to play roleplaying games, not calculator games. As such, I don't like any of T4's systems, Megatraveller, or GURPS: Traveller. I can barely stand High Guard, but I enjoyed Book 2. It is, by far, the best ship generation system in Traveller and one of the best in any game. It can be improved by adding more equipment options (as I have seen in the Internet).