T 5 Has arrived!!!!

[morfydd]

playtest

I can't say I'm that knowledgeable of the RPG industry, but watching the development of T5 is like watching the Keystone Cops. I can't imagine anything more amateur.

T5 in development for years.

The RPG world is a cottage industry. It dosent work well as a full blown corporate one. It cant be the players of RPG's are on average a bit odd to start with. The customer base is a bit more imaginative than the run of the mill couch patatoe that spends every off work moment in front of the TV.

Hmmn I guess you missed TSR's early relases back in the Late 1960's (notably a small rpg that first set of trial rules appeaered in chainmail magazine issue # ahh 48 i think been a few years ago...That is now the most widely known RPG on the market today. How many playtest sessions and rewrites did it get ..lets see 1970's the 3 booklets then were released and a fanzine got started ...1972 the Blue box with a viable set of rules was released ...1978 ..the full on first edition of the game got released more than a decade from the initial alpha set of rules. and that game has undergone 4 full on revisions since. The last two released without large scale semi public playtest and it shows ...

Ergo Mr Marc Miller is doing a great job the finished product will hit the shelves playtested and proofread many times over as opposed to edited and not fully tested till after release. Furthermore he has a decent number of his target audience playtesting the rules before it hits market. To be 100% honest no RPG on the market today has gotten half the playtesting that T-5 has gotten to date.

Im pleased with the product as is and theres more of it coming.

 

[DonM]

I will stand corrected about the NDA comment I made elsewhere; so this just a voluntary thing of not telling? Ok...I still don' get it but if it's voluntary, that's cool.

Hey, if you bought it, and you blab about it, I'll be very disappointed, but it's not like you signed an NDA. You bought the CD.

I've tried to explain this several times, but it seems to keep being missed. The reason for the silence is the recognition that our current focus could be completely lost if we start trying to respond to all this external noise. Personally, I want Marc's nose working on design, not response. So for the noisemakers, you get me. And Rob at times. And, today, apparently Hunter as well...

And the level of trust Hunter's had in Marc about this whole thing... Back in April, Marc asks Hunter to give a guy Hunter's never heard of moderator powers and a private forum. :devil:

Sure it turned out ok... but it COULD have been a massive nightmare.

Myself, I have gone from not caring about T5 to wishing I could get a copy to see what its all about...but I don't preorder anything, ever. Just my personal policy.

I really do understand that. Seriously. I respect that position.

If I sent Marc the $35 would I still get a CD, minus all the goodies you got for pre-paying?

Well, you'll at least get what the last few buyers got, which is the CD, and don't forget about the CD sale at FFE (it ends FRIDAY). A couple of the last minute folks didn't get some of the older freebies. And some of those freebies need to be modified to reflect the *current* rules. But you'll be welcome in the development forum...

 

[DonM]

As for beta, so is practically every 1st edition ever released. Marc's just being honest about the fact and not forcing anyone to buy a printed book that is rife with problems.?

Actually, given the errata every Traveller edition has required (including Mongoose), I'd think that Marc's madness appears to have a method behind it.

 

[Jeffr0]

Well, you'll at least get what the last few buyers got, which is the CD, and don't forget about the CD sale at FFE (it ends FRIDAY). A couple of the last minute folks didn't get some of the older freebies. And some of those freebies need to be modified to reflect the *current* rules. But you'll be welcome in the development forum...

>> EXAMINE CD SALE

"I see no CD SALE here."

>> HIT MONITOR

"I don't know how to hit something."

 

[DonM]

As one who was there I'd say it was "some" not "many", and some of us were more upset at the fact that simple questions on how to proceed and exactly what was wanted weren't answered. It was not a playtest, I'm not sure exactly what it was, more of a sounding board maybe for Marc to throw out ideas for reaction. He got that, much of it negative, but usually with good reasoning and suggestions. What else could he expect from what was given without instruction when it was clearly not playtest material? A little interaction and direction early on in that could have avoid a lot if not all the grief that came out of it. But, water under the bridge and all...

I have to confess that for the first round of T5 testing, I wasn't there. And as I noted in my response above to stainless, I know it was a mess, but there's more than one side with responsbilites there.

Even what little I saw of round two of T5 "playtesting" didn't look much like this. In fact I seem to recall Marc specifically saying at one point (or was that in the first run?) that he was not interested in typo fixing.

Was that really a round? I must not have been involved there either...

If this is the state of the current (round 3?) CD pre-order playtest (and what I've heard seems to support that) then it's good. Progress is being made and that pleases me. Especially the reports of some 600 involved (even if that stretches credulity, pre-orders sure, even signed on the secret board, but active playtesters... )

Hmm... I may have posted it on the Mongoose boards... We've got 650+ preorders (Marc and I maintain dual lists for verification), of which over 400 people have activated their forum membership, of which at least 80+ have posted at least once, of which 30+ are actively involved in the process.

Come on -- Marc even posted in public on this board back in August, even naming users who were contibuting to the T5 effort at that point (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=16825) but everyone seemed more interested in the "eminent death of CotI predicted" posts.

So T5 shipping the preliminary edition should NOT be a surprise to anyone around here.

 

[tbeard1999]

I can't say I'm that knowledgeable of the RPG industry, but watching the development of T5 is like watching the Keystone Cops. I can't imagine anything more amateur.

T5 in development for years.

So?

Various invited playtesters leave disgruntled because Marc refuses to listen to their comments.

Eh, not so much as far as I can tell. (And I don't think anyone in the private T5 forum would call me a fanboy-apologist...)

T5 announced year on year as being imminent, but never gets published.

Boy that's the first time deadlines have ever slipped in the gaming business...

T5 announced as being sold as a beta CD-ROM so that others can do Marc's work in getting it into shape so it can be sold again as a book. (Marc wins award for most innovative business model for 2007).

No one is forcing you to buy the game. And since those who have chosen to buy game did so with full knowledge of the program, this complaint seems, well, odd. It's being made by someone who did not participate apparently on behalf of those who did participate and who knew going in what the deal was.

T5 CD-ROM announced as ready for release. (Much fanfare and releasing of pigeons).
T5 not quite ready for release, but gets delayed just a bit longer, honest, just a few months.

Yeah, deadlines never slip in the game business, do they?

Hold on a minute, actually T5 is so far away from release that the alpha version needs to be sold to people who then do Marc's work in getting it into shape as a beta.
A year latter, T5 beta is now ready for sale.
Hang on a minute, it's still a beta (in fact some even speak of it as still an alpha), so those who have purchased it are asked not to speak about it.
In total, an alpha that has been worked on by paying customers is released as a beta that's intended to be worked on yet more by paying customers so that some time later a book can be published and sold again. But in the meantime, no-one can talk about it. (Marc wins most innovative business model for 2008).

You seem awfully uptight for someone who didn't buy the game.

And candidly, certain MGT products are little better than first drafts (Mercenary, for instance), so *if* you are a MGT fan, I wouldn't cast stones... Come to think of it, the same would be true for many products in all the Traveller lines...

And as icing on the cake, the announcement of T5 on the FEE web page has a typo.

WELL THAT'S IT. LET'S LYNCH MARC NOW!!!!

A year latter, T5 beta...

'm just commenting on the farcical and amateur way the whole thing has/is being handled.

Fair enough. Would you care to identify a competing Traveller version that's a lot better?

 

[Allensh]

Hey, if you bought it, and you blab about it, I'll be very disappointed, but it's not like you signed an NDA. You bought the CD.

If I do buy the CD I will abide by Marc's wishes.

Well, you'll at least get what the last few buyers got, which is the CD, and don't forget about the CD sale at FFE (it ends FRIDAY). A couple of the last minute folks didn't get some of the older freebies. And some of those freebies need to be modified to reflect the *current* rules. But you'll be welcome in the development forum...

Fair enough. If I can swing it (and a way can be found around PayPal which I will NOT use after a bad experience), I may do that soon.

Allen

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not that I count for much...

But being one of the "playtesters?" on the Private T5 Forum and just having printed off a whole bunch of new stuff that we on the Private T5 Forum didn't see, I have to say, that I for one am happy with the whole shebang.

Now as for Marc doesn't listen, I find that one hilarious, some stuff for sure was changed because someone made a rational, well reasoned and stated opinion that kept to the Traveller 5 Mechanics on the PT5F and Marc (through Don, oh and btw, thanks Don, it's sometimes a crummy job, but you do it well) came back and said that in fact he (Marc) agreed and had changed the point in question.

I for one never cared that it has taken...ok, I lie, I do care, but not in a negative way, that it is taking a bit to get to print with a bunch of books with Traveller 5 titles. However, I have found hours of enjoyment in playing with the new rules. In fact I may even be starting an actual T5 game now. Yea for me!

If you don't want T5 or care....why so many whiny (ducks Mods) posts about it. If you do care, well, you might want to invest in the time and money and join us down in the Private T5 Forum.

And really, having got my first ever MgT book, The Spinward Marches, I can't say I am all that impressed as it looks, admittedly at first scan, like something I could have put together with my personal collection of Supplements and Adventures from CT. *shrug* I am hoping for more, but will have to read it thoroughly.

All in all, I have found the Traveller 5 process to be quite enlightening and enjoyable and hope to continue being a part of it.

Oh and the "NDA" not so hard to comply with, but then I have tried to design and develop a RPG myself, and the hassles are endless it seems and can mess up a friendship and blah, blah, blah...in other words, give Marc a break, this sh!t ain't easy ya know. Creation never is, but you get what you pay for. Hard work equals quality thing of value.

Anyway, off to shopping and dinner, laterness all.

 

[Jacqual]

So I quess that the Beowulf Class Free Trader Does Not really come with the pre-order lol, that was what hooked me. I always wanted my very own Free Trader.

 

[mcgurk]

I'm going to miss the FFE sale, which is a pity
but I jsut cant stretch the budget to fit at the moment
(I did manage to put a bid on a £4 2300AD book though:.)

next month wouldnt be a lot better
but I DO, really appreciate the kind gesture made by Marc Miller

I agree with the thoughts posted earlier D&D seems to be letting the buyers playtest
post release, T5 is an amazing opportunity to involve the fans
(I only wish I had, but hey, might not be too late:.)

Alan Hume

 

[mcgurk]

Just read all the back posts here

I do honestly think it's very sad that people are haranging Marc Miller over this,
it is just plain unnecessary (and downright wrong) for people to actually
spit out such bile, yes you are entitled to your opinions but personal attacks I find a bit low, I think its a real shame, cant you guys just be happy with the
game you like (you already have it) and just accept that T5 is a reality (when it
appears in its final form is clearly not something we can guess at, but what's so bad abuot waiting, you know what they say "Everything comes to those who wait"

Oh, DOm, can I please get some advice from you on how to help out with the Playtest
(if its not too late) I am not really computer savvy and dont even know where to start

I really would appreciate someone giving me a pointer here
I might not be able to do a great deal but someting is better than nothing

Alan Hume

 

[mhwittek]

Relax Rialto,
I am waiting from mine too. ;-)

 

[tbeard1999]

Just read all the back posts here

I do honestly think it's very sad that people are haranging Marc Miller over this...

It's also staggeringly silly. Here's what I posted in the private T5 forum about that:

I put a lot of stake in what people *accomplish* (as opposed to what people speechify) and Marc has accomplished things that most game designers never will. You can disagree with his mechanics (heck I do all the time), but to insinuate that he's a talentless hack should be grounds for a mandatory psych evaluation and rapid appointment of a legal guardian.

And as a game designer myself (an amateur, but well regarded rules set called A Fistful of TOWs), I have a certain semi-professional respect for the things he got right.

And critics should remember that Traveller was the first serious sci-fi RPG (discounting Ken St. Andre's Starfarer, which was interesting but simply not in Traveller's league) and came out at a time when White Box D&D was state of the art. In the equivalent of about 72 8.5x11 pages, Marc gave us:

-A complete character generation system, with all of the core tropes covered

-The second task system evuh (Tunnels and Trolls being the first)

-Careers and skills defining characters in lieu of classes

-The unprecedented notion that PCs would be experienced old guys with assets and a history

-A complete modern and primitive combat system (that would have made a damnfine fantasy RPG at the time)

-A detailed, yet fast system to randomly generate hundreds of star systems in sufficient detail to give referees a good starting point, along with a nicely conceived mapping system

-A setting that emphasized reasonable weapons -- before Aliens, most sci-fi movies and TV shows tended towards blasters, phasers and light sabers

-A detailed, yet fast starship construction system, with a nice set of miniature rules for combat

-A system to quickly generate thousands of animal encounters

-A complete set of economic rules for starship operations

-A workable and comprehensive psionics system

-And probably a lot more that I've left out.

While we can quibble with certain mechanics, the fact remains that Marc gave us this stuff in the VERY FIRST package.

In my own opinion, I don't think that any game came out of the box with more tools--particularly in the 1970s. Yes, I think Runequest had better mechanics. But Traveller was IMHO a far more impressive package.

And lots of us *still* play that game.

This reminds me of a statement by Professor Emeritus William McNeill about Ancient Greece--

"...But every achievement involves a surrender of alternatives; it is merely that the Greek achievement, by its very magnitude, casts an unusually clear light upon what it also excluded." --William H. McNiell, A World History (3rd Ed.)

The same could be said about Marc.

Marc was a helluva wargame designer as well. He won the Charles Roberts award for Mayday. Imperium is perhaps the best empire building SF wargame ever (Stellar Conquest is its only serious competition IMHO). Triplanetary is superb (and provided the base system for Mayday). He credited (IIRC) with Azhanti High Lightning, which besides being a starship deckplan tour de force, included a superb combat system. Same is true of Snapshot.

And his list of historical wargame designs is impressive: 1942, Battle of Agincourt - 1415 AD, Chaco (Bolivia vs Paraguy, 1930s*), Coral Sea 1st & 2rd ed., Indian Ocean Adventure, Battle for Midway, Port Arthur, The Battle of Raphia 217 BC, Their Finest Hour (which surely extended the Europa system beyond its limits), Tsushima and Verdun. Not to mention scores of games he probably helped develop at GDW. In the day, no board wargame company enjoyed a better reputation for thoughtful, quality designs. And Marc is a major part of the reason for that.

Oh and he's in the Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame, and his designs have won several Charles Roberts Awards.

*Can there be no greater proof that he was a true professional in every sense of the word? There were probably six people in the whole wargaming world who cared about a 1930s war between Bolivia and Paraguay, yet Marc manfully designed a game on it anyway

 

[spinwardpirate]

Here here!
Marc and the other fine gentlemen at GDW gave us a multitude of great games. I have the deepest respect for them and their accomplishments.

 

[kafka47]

What most people feel about Marc is like all the other greats in game design. The need to be affirmed and listened to. For the games we create contribute to stories that we share - here and elsewhere. Game Designers like GMs are the ultimate arbitrators in how the universe is run. Therefore, sometimes the fight resembles what goes on in the game. In determining how the universe is run, it should be internally consistant yet for Science Fiction...an important criteria is realistic.

Therefore, it is important for a game to remain flexible, as well as dynamic. For that to happen, the fans must have a say, which is what Mongoose and Marc have done...we might not like it but we are free to change it.

So, let us end this see-saw. With the hope that both sides are willing to listen to the other. T5 will only be all the better for it.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Meanwhile...

I GOT MY COPY IN THE MAIILLLL!!11!!!11!

But, you know, I can't talk about it.

So...

Anyone want to talk about cricket?

 

[mcgurk]

Here, Here
from me too

(oh, and nice job on fistful of Tows, I may not have played but I sure ahve heard about it:.)

 

[tbeard1999]

Here, Here
from me too

(oh, and nice job on fistful of Tows, I may not have played but I sure ahve heard about it:.)

Why thankyavurramuch.

 

[mcgurk]

You're most welcome
well done, most folks never put anything out there

 

[G K Zhukov]

It is here.

T5 CD-ROM arrived today in Madrid, Spain. Now I need some ink, lots of paper and plenty of time to check it out.

Thanks, Marc and All involved.