Suggested Essential Reading in the T5 Book

[Magnus von Thornwood]

WTF?

What skill are you letting players make up for their made-up guns?

Dude, where are you going here?

We started at players shouldn't be forced to deal with the Makers, to my response of not forced but encouraged to use them, to how is that roleplayed (which still confuses me as to its application to the original discussion), to they don't roleplay they just make cool stuff for their characters, to making up skills.

They don't make up any Skills, they generally Make things they have Skills for. An example is Lieutenant Coronel Sir Nick Sutton, KE formerly of His Majesty's Royal Marines now in the Reserves has both Fighter-X (Exotics-Y) and Heavy Weapons-A (Ordanance-B), he will one day use the Makers to create his dream weapon: The Gravity Grenade. {I should look up the actual numbers, but I have been having comp issues and the paper copies are buried at the moment, spring cleaning and cataloging soon.}

See how that worked, even snuck in some roleplaying. The other fella was building an Imperial Marshal and wanted a motorcycle and a shotgun (and a leather armored duster if I recall correctly, I should ask Shimmy, he might remember). Point is they didn't roleplay building the thing, they roleplayed the desire for it.

No made up Skills for made up guns except the Skills they recieved in CharGen which they generally wish to Make custom stuff to use with that Skill or Knowledge.

It is beginning to look a lot like you are looking to pick at the game piece by piece and when someone points out they and others dig and use that piece a lot (such as persons not the respondent, but known to them, who might not be biased by having their name in the credits, which yes does swing me to love it side) you go and swing away from the original topic.

Damn, people not to let my whittle feeling get hurt, but for real MT is notorious for its numerous errata and issues, yet it is a much used and still beloved edition. (Hell I have a goodly chuck myself, love the Emperors List and the Referee Only Library Data and when I do OTU I still use them, just like T5 or not the DGP SOM is my base guide for awesome stuff about Traveller starships and I worked a boatload in ACS.) Yet for some reason right out the box, first print run 600+ pages of The most comprehensive Traveller Core Rules ever and people here seem to hate it with passion and are just looking to bag on it.

Look, news flash, this is not CT! Thirty-Five years have gone by, the game is still kicking and it is going to...gasp..change. Not be what it was but something new. When was that so bad for a game, hell when did every one get so damned tight about editons loyalty anyway? Me, I love them all, even GT with its fanarking, bloody stupid English system which even the English have given up on and use metric and no Aging or Survival rolls. (Though in truth I have not seen T20 or HT yet, but I suspect there is something cool to be found there too.) This major wave of hate for the new kid in the family is, well in the words of a wise Psionic Knight Commander: I feel a disturbance in the Force.

Seriously, can we get a bit less with those negative waves man?

 

[Shonner]

I think I see an answer on that wall of text.

No further questions, your honor.

 

[robject]

What skill are you letting players make up for their made-up guns?

I think his players aren't role-playing it.

If one of my players decides to build a gun, well to build anything takes Designer skill, and then the proper applicable skillsets, i.e. physical sciences. It also helps to have terms as Craftsman -- but none of my players have this, since you only live so long and have to specialize in critical skillsets already...

And he needs access to resources, so he'd have to know someone 'on the take' in a warehouse or Army Procurement, or order stuff retail (if it can be had retail, that is). But then you're getting Wal*Mart-grade materials, and what does that do to your gun? Or to your hand when toxic chemicals from the grip leak out?

Now, assuming the character doesn't have ALL of the requisite skills, he'd need to seek out skilled professionals to do some of the work for him...

...and in the case of the Moon Buster Gun, we've got custom ammunition. You'll have to search some databases to find the right guy for that job, and hope he's not a lunatic to boot (pun intended).

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Well, clue me in!

I think I see an answer on that wall of text.

No further questions, your honor.

And what is that answer? Because in truth I am still unsure what the hell you were getting at except that for some reason players should be forced to roleplay everything even when merely designing and Making something which has no need for roleplaying.

Or was it something else?

Seriously please do explain because the wall of text, also known as a response is my attempt to first figure out what you were really asking and formulate a response. It have been shorter if I hadn't needed to run through the questions to figure out what you were seeking. Which still I am not sure I even understand.

Also, short does not equal good, a wall of text is for some of us necessary in order to make sure all the variables are dealt with.

 

[Vladika]

Why is it

Why is it that the arguments about T5, and trying to actually use it, are longer than the Tome?:rofl:

 

[damann]

Player's Handbook

If I may be excused for jumping in, I think the question about the Maker Sections was concerning the scope of a Player's Guide.

In my view, a player's guide (when there already exists a comprehensive game manual) should be a concise, easy to read book(let) that contains enough material for a new player to get started in the game, and understand the necessary mechanics to play all facets of the game from a character's point of view - and no more.

I have no problem for player characters who have played for a while, and amassed some wealth, then specifying and ordering a custom item - however, the detailed rules for this (I would say) is outside the scope of said player's guide.

I have no problem with having all my players read all the rules. I have a very big problem that most of my players don't read any of the rules. In part because the rules are pretty inaccessible in their current format, and buried in Too Much Information.

I also have a problem in that having played every version of Traveller to date, this is the first version I have ever picked up where I have honestly stumbled through pretty much every phase of the game. I tried to guide someone through rolling up a Marine. We came unstuck at skill rolling - having chosen a branch and rolled an assignment (and I remain unsure as to whether assignments are 1 or 4 years), those assignments do not correspond to skill tables - not without some assessment and judgement. Then we spent 10 minutes looking for where the medals are listed, and eventually gave up. Then I found them a while after generation, by which time we had forgotten the rolls he had made, so it was hard to guess which medals he had gotten.

If there is to be a Player's Guide, it has to be clean, short and simple. In fact, for myself, until there is one (and I may have to write it myself apparently), in fariness to my players, I don't think I can run anything in T5.

 

[robject]

If I may be excused for jumping in, I think the question about the Maker Sections was concerning the scope of a Player's Guide.

[...] If there is to be a Player's Guide, it has to be clean, short and simple. [...]

Your post is right on the money.

I also think that if you, who know Traveller well, can't use the Core Rules, then the Core Rules require work, as well. But this thread is about Essential Reading, which approximates a Player's Guide, so.

My group is able to play Traveller5 because I ported their existing character sheets. One of the players helped me with his character; the others just agreed with what I did.

A new player is rolling up his own character, but he's never played Traveller before. For this reason, we're working on it gradually via email.

 

[Shonner]

I think his players aren't role-playing it.

Yep. My players would need to explain (role-play) why their characters are "designing" their own guns, along with the how, where, and when stuff. Mechanic skills are not going to cut it either for building guns from parts, unless they were trained on gun assembling in a military of some kind. They'd need a Gun Nut skill if not in a military. Again, they'd have to role-play this. PCs have to role-play everything actually. Non-eventful things can be fast-forwarded of course.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah. Finally my answer.

Yep. My players would need to explain (role-play) why their characters are "designing" their own guns, along with the how, where, and when stuff. Mechanic skills are not going to cut it either for building guns from parts, unless they were trained on gun assembling in a military of some kind. They'd need a Gun Nut skill if not in a military. Again, they'd have to role-play this. PCs have to role-play everything actually. Non-eventful things can be fast-forwarded of course.

So, explain to me how does Muster Out work in your game?

See, in my method I just assume that is part of CharGen, thus the role-playing aspect has not yet started and if the player wants to have a chance to create a custom weapon that they have the Skill for and thus get a weapon for at Muster Out, I being the lax Referee that I am I let them. But then I have found that restricting the players tends to make them unhappy.

I must say I find your attitude towards weapons, or specifically firearms to be a shade dickish. Seriously. You would hate my group considering your stated attitude, they are always trying to finagle a way to get BattleDress. :devil: Hell, once I let them get some...too bad about that IN Patrol ship that one of their own called to them. (Frankly, after the murder/mutiny the BD was sort of secondary charge.)

EDIT: Also, as I stated in the comment for Rep, I find your using Rob's comment as opposed to answering my direct question also a bit dickish. Seriously, why could you not just address your answer to the person who asked the question? Does it sully your August Personage to answer questions from us annoying peons? Dick. Move.

 

[tinker123]

The odd things for me are (a) the suggestion in the Core book that players would have a use for the maker routines, and (b) the idea that their creations might not fit an existing knowledge.
(a) if a player points out that some design is viable and could exist, it is then the ref's job to rule on whether it's so obvious and useful (or profitable) that it's currently being mass-produced somewhere and might be available if the pcs know where to ask, or so specialised and obscure that the pcs would have to get it built to order. Also where it fits in the local law level.
(b) the fighting knowledges seem to cover slug throwers, energy weapons, sprays, etc - if the pcs can make a good case why their career would involve learning to use their creation then the skill already exists, doesn't it?

 

[robject]

Reminder: please be a good steward of this board, and do your best to keep this discussion civil and to assume good faith.

 

[robject]

The odd things for me are (a) the suggestion in the Core book that players would have a use for the maker routines, and (b) the idea that their creations might not fit an existing knowledge.

More likely, there is a wide variety in the types of weapons one might find in charted space.

The usefulness of the maker tools is to provide a consistent set of rules for weapons design; whether or not those weapons exist depends on what the referee wants.

Finally, as far as I can tell, all types of weapons have a listed representative knowledge. Anything that can be created fits into a known category.

 

[Shonner]

The odd things for me are (a) the suggestion in the Core book that players would have a use for the maker routines, and (b) the idea that their creations might not fit an existing knowledge.
(a) if a player points out that some design is viable and could exist, it is then the ref's job to rule on whether it's so obvious and useful (or profitable) that it's currently being mass-produced somewhere and might be available if the pcs know where to ask, or so specialised and obscure that the pcs would have to get it built to order. Also where it fits in the local law level.
(b) the fighting knowledges seem to cover slug throwers, energy weapons, sprays, etc - if the pcs can make a good case why their career would involve learning to use their creation then the skill already exists, doesn't it?

I have no problem with players making their own world systems and spaceships and equipment/weapons and battle suits and making NPC followers if what we'll be doing is adventure gaming in anything-goes Sci-Fi rather than role-playing in the established 3I setting.

So, explain to me how does Muster Out work in your game?

The way it is explained in the book. There's no role-play going on during chargen. I let players decide what kind of stuff they get, within reason, if the book hands out generic stuff.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah.

I have no problem with players making their own world systems and spaceships and equipment/weapons and battle suits and making NPC followers if what we'll be doing is adventure gaming in anything-goes Sci-Fi rather than role-playing in the established 3I setting.

The way it is explained in the book. There's no role-play going on during chargen. I let players decide what kind of stuff they get, within reason, if the book hands out generic stuff.

So, basically players get generics or must quest for cool, individual gear and are forbidden anything not-OTU?

Well, there we differ, first I don't run OTU much anymore, but second even if I did again, it would be my OTU so again, I did/will allow players custom gear, if for no other reason that they are not the average Imperial Citizens, but the exemplary Citizens. I see no problems with players creating and having custom gear, being a member of the Canonista Reformation.

And being that I should settle down Timmii and not start any fires, I politely ask, are you a Referee who limits Noblity as well? Also, do you do keep to the concept that players should not be allowed to have wealth and must constantly adventure to pay the bills? I am curious because it seems in my experience that seems to be one of the hardier memes of Traveller: "Characters must be broke or they won't adventure." and I am not sure I understand it. I mean I get the concept intellectually, I just don't believe it as I have never seen a player not adventure even when extremely powerful or wealthy.

 

[Shonner]

So, basically players get generics or must quest for cool, individual gear and are forbidden anything not-OTU?

You have a habit of assuming incorrectly everything. You can't read people's minds, but you continue trying anyway.

Well, there we differ

If you say so. It's your own chosen imagination of me that you differ with. Not sure why you are even posting about it.

are you a Referee who limits Noblity as well? Also, do you do keep to the concept that players should not be allowed to have wealth and must constantly adventure to pay the bills? I am curious because it seems in my experience that seems to be one of the hardier memes of Traveller: "Characters must be broke or they won't adventure." and I am not sure I understand it. I mean I get the concept intellectually, I just don't believe it as I have never seen a player not adventure even when extremely powerful or wealthy.

More assuming and loaded questions again from you. I'd block you, but you are a moderator.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I think you also misunderstanding.

You have a habit of assuming incorrectly everything. You can't read people's minds, but you continue trying anyway.

If you say so. It's your own chosen imagination of me that you differ with. Not sure why you are even posting about it.

More assuming and loaded questions again from you. I'd block you, but you are a moderator.

If I don't try how will I ever learn?

However, I am merely trying to interpret the words you have written so far. You were the one who stated what appears upon reading that custom weapons are not allowed without questing for them. How is this assuming incorrectly? Did you mistype that or something? That is why I am asking you questions to further clarify your statement.

Currently from your postings you seem (and notice that word seem, not a sure knowledge just an inference based on your own writings) to say that players should not be using the Makers for creating custom Muster Out gear while I see that as perfectly reasonable. Now, if I am wrong, please plainly state what metric you use to decide if a player can or should be allowed to use them. For example how often do you use Traveller rules to run as you put it anything-goes sci-fi versus running the OTU since again to me it seems that is at least one? Are there others?

My questions are not loaded, they are inquiry. Just because I don't understand a thing doesn't mean my attempts to understand it is loaded, it just means for some reason or another I don't get something and hence my questions. If they appear loaded, perhaps I am not the only one here misunderstanding what the other has written.

I ask because I think encouraging the players to use the Makers engages them both in understanding the rules and being invested in the TU their characters inhabit, yet from what I have read you seem to be saying that they should not be. Why?

And dude, I am not attacking you either way, I am just asking questions.

For instance, I am wondering thinking about it that perhaps you have regular Traveller players who are already invested in the game/setting. If so perhaps that is part of the disconnect as I am working (in meatspace) with a crew that plays almost exclusively Fantasy RPGs, so for me investing them in the ATU by doing things like designing their Muster Out gear or Ship is a way to get them to play something other than a genre I am not all that fond of. I got quite a few swipes of "So, when do we get Levels?" for the first serveral games. They are in the words of a poster here (in this thread maybe even) Wagnerian players, or as I call 'em Pious Followers of Saint Timmi the Mini-Maxer. But then, so am I. :devil: This of course colors my view of what or what not should be open and encouraged, thus in the Players Guide in that I think since they are so light they should be included, especially since gear is a major factor in players/characters lives. Dice probability charts, not so much.

For the record:

• The Benchmarks/QREBS. The charts and bits about Money and such are very cool.
• Characteristics. For those folks that play lots of non-humans.
• Humanity, Sophonts, Synthetics & other lifeforms. So players can be something other than human.
• Education/Careers. For the obvious reasons. Include Fame and Medals.
• Makers, all. So players can Make stuff and shop.
• ACS. Because sometimes players also want a custom ship which CharGen supports with 1 Ship Share = 25 Tons.
• UWP, TCs and Extensions. For Travellers to use in deciding to go there or not.
• Psionics. Because some folks will want and use them.

That is my off the top of my head list.

 

[SanDragon]

Your group is approached by a Patron.

He introduces himself as the Marquis Monte Hall...

 

[whulorigan]

This was an interesting comment by Mike Wightman from another thread a while back:

My group came up with a way to use the makers which stunned me, and at a stroke made it much more of a cutting edge sci-fi game.

They asked where the makers are on the ship - thinking that they are some sort of nano-fabrication 3d printer sort of thing.

So I printed out gun maker and said here is your basic body pistol from the rules (T4), now go and use the maker to modify it. On board your ship you have a TL12 maker that can modify the pistol in any way you can come up with.

 

[DonM]

This was an interesting comment by Mike Wightman from another thread a while back:

I immediately cut that and sent it to Marc.

 

[ronaldo1]

Thanks for the videos, helped me to getting started on figuring this out.