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SolCon Reforms (TNS: 130-1121)

"Then they should change their attitude because the fact is, it IS objectively irrelevant."

Easy to say when it's not your attitude you want to change.

"People need to realise that they're not doing themselves or anyone else any favours by being slaves to the published material."

You have a good point - and it's fine for those people that have the time and energy to create their own adventures. There are those people who either don't have the time/energy to do this (like those who now have a full-time job, wife, kids, family, etc., e.g.), or that like to play in convention games, or who like the shared experience that came with watching the milieu grow and develop as new products are introduced and new TNS entries come out, etc. (but not with such radical changes as from MT->TNE). Not everyone wants to make and keep updating their whole universe from scratch. Game designers and publishers realize this, otherwise they wouldn't bother with pregenerated settings and modules.

"If a game stops being published, the only thing stopping people playing it is the block that they themselves put in their heads to prevent them from doing so. Who cares if new people aren't attracted to it? Who cares if more books are being published or not? If a given group is enjoying a "dead" game then they can carry on playing and enjoying it til the day they die if they like."

Yes, you can continue your CT campaign long after GDW/SJG/QLI disappear (and I plan on playing Traveller despite what happens to the companies), but you're on your own and you have more work to do and miss out on the shared experience of the official universe. It sounds like that doesn't matter to you, but I hope you can understand that it does to others, and for legitimate reasons, not just some psychological problem they have.
 
Elucidated by Rob Davenport:
"Yes, you can continue your CT campaign long after GDW/SJG/QLI disappear (and I plan on playing Traveller despite what happens to the companies), but you're on your own and you have more work to do and miss out on the shared experience of the official universe. It sounds like that doesn't matter to you, but I hope you can understand that it does to others, and for legitimate reasons, not just some psychological problem they have."
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AMEN! That is exactly the point of view that I have. I've been watching Malenfant continually argue with those who were/are frustrated with the story path that Traveller took with TNE, and I wonder if he's just being willfully difficult.

To be clear, I personally don't think that TNE "caused the downfall" of GDW, but I do admit that the larger-than-life role playing encouraged by TNE was not my cup of tea. I'd also like to be clear in that I do understand his point of view on this, and understand his frustration with those who whine, but I think a little understanding can go a long way. ;)


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Originally posted by loyal_citizen:
AMEN! That is exactly the point of view that I have. I've been watching Malenfant continually argue with those who were/are frustrated with the story path that Traveller took with TNE, and I wonder if he's just being willfully difficult.
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Well, either changing the background stops people playing a version of the game that they enjoy or it doesn't. And the fact remains that it doesn't, because they can carry on playing whatever they like.

To be clear, I personally don't think that TNE "caused the downfall" of GDW, but I do admit that the larger-than-life role playing encouraged by TNE was not my cup of tea.
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That's cool. That sort of style is not for everyone.

I'd also like to be clear in that I do understand his point of view on this, and understand his frustration with those who whine, but I think a little understanding can go a long way.
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"Understanding" implies that one has to accept that people whining about being "forced" to use a different background when they don't actually have to do that is OK. That simply isn't true. "Understanding" isn't what's needed here - the people who balk at the changes need to realise that they are actually in the wrong.

It's perfectly OK to say "I don't like this version of the game, so I'm going to continue to play the version I do like and ignore the new one". It's not OK to say "Wah! They're forcing change on me! Everything I've done before is invalidated!", because that simply isn't true.
 
"It's not OK to say "Wah! They're forcing change on me! Everything I've done before is invalidated!", because that simply isn't true."

You're right. The correct whine might be: "Wah, I wish GDW had the resources to do TNE *and* keep up the original version as an alternative."


(though - gee, we have the "It never happened" version from SJG...
)

After reading Dave Nilsen's posts and from Loren here and on the TML, it's obvious they couldn't do multiple 'official settings' but it would've been cool. Kind of like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, Athas, etc. Don't like the feel of the CT/MT 3I? OK, try this other setting - same rules (like Traveller originally was designed for) but a whole different version of the universe. It could even be after a galactic apocolypse and you're part of the RC or some similar group striking out to bring the galaxy back together and this time the ref is free to create whatever background/pocket empires/etc. they want - and/or have a big area to explore. All with products published to help those refs with little time.

Nice fantasy, but it didn't happen. C'est le vie.

But yes, complaining about how TNE 'ruined' the game and/or GDW doesn't help anyone. Supporting companies that *are* publishing things you like (and/or making constructive suggestions to them to let them know what fans want) would be better.

The stuff about 1248 I've read here make it sound interesting. And supporting Hunter and co. would be a good thing, I think.
 
"Understanding" implies that one has to accept that people whining about being "forced" to use a different background when they don't actually have to do that is OK. That simply isn't true. "Understanding" isn't what's needed here - the people who balk at the changes need to realise that they are actually in the wrong.
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Ahh-- the crux of the disagreement! You are under the misapprehension that you are going to be able to change their minds.


In any case, it's off topic, and I apologize for disturbing the thread.

Back to lurking.

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Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
But it will be different. You are now playing in a "dead" system.

Such a point may be irrelevant to you, but it is a very important point to others. Just saying that it shouldn't be doesn't change that it is.
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Then they should change their attitude because the fact is, it IS objectively irrelevant. A game is only "dead" if people stop playing it, not because some guy in some RPG company decides to close its doors or change direction. People need to realise that they're not doing themselves or anyone else any favours by being slaves to the published material. If a game stops being published, the only thing stopping people playing it is the block that they themselves put in their heads to prevent them from doing so. Who cares if new people aren't attracted to it? Who cares if more books are being published or not? If a given group is enjoying a "dead" game then they can carry on playing and enjoying it til the day they die if they like. </font>[/QUOTE]You know, for such an otherwise rational person, you sure do go non-linear at the weirdest times.

Obviously there are people who care if no one new wants to play Traveller and if no more books will be published for it. And just because they do doesn't make them "slaves" or some kind of idiots; those are just features they like to see in their games.

Are the people who wanted to know what was going to happen to the Star Vikings, or what the Empress Wave was, "slaves" for being disappointed for not being able to find out?

More on-topic, if SJG loses its license before the Solomani Confederation story is resolved, would those in this forum be "slaves" for being disappointed that they won't see the rest of the story?

Just because you are apparently happy to have read a novel with the last two chapters ripped out doesn't mean everyone else is, or should be.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
You know, for such an otherwise rational person, you sure do go non-linear at the weirdest times.
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Actually, the "dead game" thing was fairly tangential - the problem here at hand here is when fans complain about the direction the game goes in. That's nothing to do with unresolved plot hooks or missing chapters - it's everything to do with people refusing to admit that they don't have to follow the new direction of the game.

Just because you are apparently happy to have read a novel with the last two chapters ripped out doesn't mean everyone else is, or should be.
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I've never said that I was. I'm just saying that if you don't like changes to a game, then you don't have to play it that way.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
To get back on point, I think it would be really cool if SJG would use this Solomani Civil War to drive out the nutjobs and replace it with a more rational state. I don't care if they are still elitists, just so they aren't jackbooted militant fascists.
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I heartily agree!


EDIT-----------
Reading up on the last few days on this topic, I find myself experiencing a not so strange sense of deja vu.
 
Other possibilities... (from the Evil parallel universe...)

Maybe Loren's gotten so tired of the perpetual arguments over Traveller that he's decided to retire with a bang. Steve Jackson has decided not to renew the license and is going along with it. Sick of pleasing only some of the fans some of the time, they team up to enrage all of the fans at once. Together they've come up with an idea so horrible that the infamy of the GT timeline will ultimately dwarf Rebellion and Virus put together.

The credits on the back of the book will be listed under a heading of "The Wrecking Crew..."
 
Heh! Seeing as LKW seems to be taking a very deliberate pace to the whole thing, I could easily see him continue to build it up a few notches, then leave it hanging if the license isn't renewed.
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Of course, since LKW has gone totally freelance, it is quite possible that he could continue his TNS releases for as long as he wants to, even if the GT license is dropped. (Yes, agreements would need to be made with Marc, and possibly SJG, but I would be surprised if that was a huge problem.)
 
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