Software

[xloop]

I am creating some software for Traveller T20. If anyone would like to play test them, please let me know. Also if any one has any programs for Traveller, I will be creating a web site to house them.

Looking at the D20 Open Licence it says..
"The definition of Open Game Content also provides for "any additional content clearly
identified as Open Game Content." You can use the Open Game License for any kind of material you wish to distribute using the terms of the License, including fiction, artwork, maps, computer software, etc."

So it looks like we are safe.

 

[Reginald]

I hope the software does not have the ship creation rules without permission from Quiklink and Far Future. That's one of a few rules that is NOT Open Game Content, (not to mention the Traveller and T20 trademarks).

You want to know more about releasing an OGL software, check out the archived listserver discussion in the OGF web site:

www.OpenGamingFoundation.org

P.S. I strongly recommend you consult a lawyer who specialized in copyright & trademark law application to software codes. Give him a copy of the Open Gaming License so he can spell it out for you what is okay and what is violation. Also, read the FAQ on the d20 System web site:

www.Wizards.com/d20

 

[themink]

Personally I think reginald is spot on here.

in my personal opinion, if you wish to create your own software, there shouldn;t be any problems. If you wish to share it with a few friends, that is covered as well.

If you post it in a public forum, I think you should get permission from the IP owner (Quicklink for the vehicle construction rules for instance).

I imagine Quicklink would be happy with it - but you need to talk to them.

 

[Reginald]

Personal use is okay.

 

[themink]

just as long as you don;t post it on a web site.

Then you are "pubishing" and it isn;t covered by personal use any more.

 

[sevarian]

PCGen have just been through discussions with WotC over these same issues.

But as the chargen stuff seems to be OGL then adding T20 chargen rules to PCGen shouldn't be too difficult.

I'll be looking at this approach as soon as I manage to get my hands on a copy.

 

[Commonman]

Now this is an intresting qaundry....what if you encode the software in such a way that the user could not use it unless they had the rules, or there is no way to garner the rules from it?
for example the ship creation software gave you the options for ship creation but none of the math or process to final result.

 

[themink]

Making the software dependant on the user having the rules - That doesn't change anything. It may mean quicklink are more likely to say yes (They are likely to say yes regardless).

Making the software "not expose" the rules is a tricky one. The design rules have a note in them which goes a little way to help - it says you can publish designs which used the rules, but not the rules themselves.

So if you write a program which iterates the computer "possible" list of ships and builds it into a database - that is OK. If you then let users select options to effectively to a search of the DB for a ship which meets their requirements, that is probably OK also.

How that is qualitively different from letting someone choose options and the program designs the ship arround those options, I have no idea.

I reckon it's close enough to the edge that expert advise would be needed - it's expensive to get and if someone just asks quicklink, they would probably say yes, rendering the need for an opinion irrelevant.

Fundamentally, as with all these things; ask the IP owner first, chances are they will say yes. If not, if you really want to do it, consult an expert.

 

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Commonman:

Now this is an intresting qaundry....what if you encode the software in such a way that the user could not use it unless they had the rules, or there is no way to garner the rules from it?
for example the ship creation software gave you the options for ship creation but none of the math or process to final result.

Well, first off, I doubt you can use the ship creation rules from T20. It is NOT OGC. You need QuikLink and/or Far Future's permission to create a software program based on said rules.

But let's say you did secure a permission. I doubt you can create a usable program if it cannot do the calculation for you. That is like creating a calculator that cannot calculate. It simply records a number or value you input. Any user would be put off by it and resort to using pen and paper.

If this is simply a ship profile Form (like the Mad Irishman's character sheet Forms where you input information to get a hardcopy), then it becomes useful because you simply inputting stats in a clean, organized sheet (especially if you have the penmanship talent of a toddler).

 

[xloop]

Thank you for the comments, although none addressed the original question. There seems to be a lot of issue placed on copyright. I'm failing to see a problem here. I can list over 100 existing programs that were written for Traveller using Traveller rules and concepts. I can name 50 or so web sites that deal strictly in Traveller material. I know for a fact that many of them have not gotten any permission from anyone to either write the programs or post them. If any company were to go after just one person because they were posting their own programs it would be thrown out of court. (I talked to a laywer about this). Since no company is even trying to stop anyone else from writing program they would be in effect discriminating aginst the one site they did go after leagally. By not even trying to stop the others they create a pattern of behavior of allowing it.

Just to be on the safe side thought I sent a few emails to Quiklink about writting software, I have never received a reply.

There is also some confusion about the software. I have no intention to sell it, or make any type of profit from it. I find many of the administrational feature of Traveller, as well as most RPGs, just too boring and time consuming to be very useful. With programs a quick click of the button and the problem is solved.

So my intent is to still create a website, just like the many out there, to post links, software, articles, adventures, etc, just like many of the websites out there. My hope was to combine some of the information on the sites and set up a centralized location where people could get programs for Traveller.

If the makers of the game to not want people to try and make it easier or to promote the game in nay manner, please let me know and I'll be sure to let as many people as I know that play the game to stop.

I will try to send another email to quicklink, just to appease everyone.

 

[themink]

Originally posted by xloop:
I know for a fact that many of them have not gotten any permission from anyone to either write the programs or post them. If any company were to go after just one person because they were posting their own programs it would be thrown out of court. (I talked to a laywer about this). Since no company is even trying to stop anyone else from writing program they would be in effect discriminating aginst the one site they did go after leagally. By not even trying to stop the others they create a pattern of behavior of allowing it.

Just to be on the safe side thought I sent a few emails to Quiklink about writting software, I have never received a reply.

There is also some confusion about the software. I have no intention to sell it, or make any type of profit from it.

So my intent is to still create a website, just like the many out there, to post links, software, articles, adventures, etc, just like many of the websites out there.

If the makers of the game to not want people to try and make it easier or to promote the game in nay manner, please let me know and I'll be sure to let as many people as I know that play the game to stop.

I will try to send another email to quicklink, just to appease everyone.

I'm not saying that they would prosecute you for doing so - but it is fairly clear that they have the right to do so. If you wish to go ahead despite that warning , then it's your own look out.

If the company do decide to prosecute just one person as a warning to everyone else that they will prosecute to protect their IP, then that is a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do. There is no discrimination involved.

By not prosecuting, they only establish a "mode" of behaviour of the sites are pervasive enough that the details are in their face. If they "don;t" prosecute despite full awareness then they may lose their IP by accepting that the info is in the public domain. This would be a foolish thing for them to do as anyone else can then publish a "cheap" version of the manual - since the IP is then in the public domain.

Your making money or not is irrelevant to the issue.

Why publish your program? Their silence does not indicate consent. If you do decide to go ahead and post it on a website, If I were you I'd post a "proviso" with it.

Have the proviso indicate your willingness to remove any offending info if quicklink ask you to, also acknowledge that the IP still belongs to them. With those two in place, if they do look for an "example" to prosecute then they are unlikely to pick on you, they are more likely to look for someone who it a more blatant thief.

All the above is just my opinion. This is a re-occuring thread - the last one is about a month old. It included lots of links to some legal opinions which I would look at if I were you.

Notice now that you have been warned that it might be a problem, you can't claim that "any reasonable person" wouldn;t bother checking.

 

[Reginald]

You do realize that the "everybody are doing it" excuse is just that, an excuse, right? That ranks right up there with "I'm helping them by doing them a favor" excuse.

Granted, there is no such thing as a Copyright Cop. The owner of their copyrighted material must do their own enforcement. If it's their trademarks, they must protect that with great vigilance or they will lose them.

Anyone who is creating such a program based on QuikLink/Far Future copyrighted material is at risk if they do not secure a permission from said copyright owners. And if QuikLink and Far Future find out about it, the law may be on their side when when it comes to a civil lawsuit.

So before you distribute that program, check with them first.

If you got their permission (preferably memorialized on paper), then full speed ahead.

 

[AndreaV]

Originally posted by xloop:
I am creating some software for Traveller T20. If anyone would like to play test them, please let me know. Also if any one has any programs for Traveller, I will be creating a web site to house them.

Looking at the D20 Open Licence it says..
"The definition of Open Game Content also provides for "any additional content clearly
identified as Open Game Content." You can use the Open Game License for any kind of material you wish to distribute using the terms of the License, including fiction, artwork, maps, computer software, etc."

So it looks like we are safe.

Other people have commented on the copyright issues

However, I would like to ask, what does the T20 software you've created do? (eg is it vehicle design, character creation, combat resolution, or something else?)

 

[AndreaV]

Originally posted by xloop:
Thank you for the comments, although none addressed the original question. There seems to be a lot of issue placed on copyright. I'm failing to see a problem here. I can list over 100 existing programs that were written for Traveller using Traveller rules and concepts. I can name 50 or so web sites that deal strictly in Traveller material. I know for a fact that many of them have not gotten any permission from anyone to either write the programs or post them. If any company were to go after just one person because they were posting their own programs it would be thrown out of court. (I talked to a laywer about this). Since no company is even trying to stop anyone else from writing program they would be in effect discriminating aginst the one site they did go after leagally. By not even trying to stop the others they create a pattern of behavior of allowing it.

Far Futures (the copyright holder for Traveller) has a well established online and software policy for Traveller. In effect they grant permission in advance as long as you follow their guidelines. AFAIK, QLI doesn't have such a policy (yet).

 

[xloop]

Amazing how such fervor can be raised with such a small topic. The programs being developed are (at present) A random animal encounter (Completed), prior server (in works), Starship cost tracking - includes crew costs and monthly fees along with tracking of party funds, personal funds and things like that. I have a few others I will get a round to in time. I'm only trying to make the adminstration easier to work with. With animal encounters, you can push a button and get one, or you can specd 15 minutes to roll one up. Rather a long random encounter.

Any ways. I hope to get the site up soon. I hope players and Gm are interested in making the games easier and funner to play and will check them out.

As a side note, anyone wish to help is more then welcome.

 

[Scarlett]

Just an observation .. not really related to copyrights or what is and isn't fair in regards to trademarks, companies, freeware, etc.

More in dealing with time management. As far as programs are concerned - I greatly appreciate time-savers (I've said as much and use a traveller character generator frequently) but any experienced Ref should have tons of random encounter material ready before the game starts. I, myself, remember spending a day with a friend creating npcs, animals, planets, systems ... the old fashioned way. While it's nice to have proggies speed up the process, it's even nicer to
have folders (paper or electronic) already packed with most of the filler random stuff that happens when players explore outside the limits of the planned adventure (as players are prone to do).

Of course ... I suppose it's good to have a tool that can whip out something fast if, for some reason, those folders have some gaps.

This coming from a Traveller who's expressed his preference for games of action and momentum that aren't overly encumbered with paperwork.

Just sayin'. Good luck, sir.

 

[themink]

I work with software and in my "spare" time am currently working on a 3D mapping and library utility with an internet interface.

I'll be loading it up with data for my ATU once it is all hunky dory.

Because all it is doing is representing data that is given to it in text files, it won't include any "propriety" rules that don't belong to me.

It doesn't contain any rules for generating star systems et al, so should be useable for any space game where the ref wants 3D maps. I have every intention of making it open source, however it will be written in a language called "bullant". It should be an easy port to C++ or Java if someone else wanted to do that, but I don't intend to. I will be tying in a chat and file sharing util so that I can use it when reffing.

Aside: Yes the company I work for is called "bullant" so my opinion of our product is clearly biased.

XLoop - Rather than use the t20 animal encounter rules, why not write your own and use those as a basis. Or even better, why not set it up so you can enter rules on the fly - that way :-
a) The program is much more useful
b) It doesn't infringe anyone's IP

As a general rule, generic programs are much more useful than dedicated ones.

 

[Scarlett]

Mink! Good ideas all around. (Man .. I wish I was a programmer and spoke computerese!)

And ... it sounds as if your group plays online? Am I right?

 

[Libris]

I too am attempting to write a Traveller program (attempting is probably the correct word). Specifically a smallcraft/starship designer.

Having been fairly upto speed with Visual Basic 5 I thought nothing of changing to VB.Net. Hey! Its just VB. Can't be that hard.

Famous last words.
Its now 3.39am GMT, and its hard work. Damned hard! 3,000 pages of manuals and you would think they would mention assigning the focus to a control. Rant, Rant...

Er, sorry. Kinda lost focus there a bit.

Suffice to say the upgrade is on a slightly steeper learning curve than initially anticipated.

Anyhoo. It is getting there. Slowly but surely and (amazingly enough) it does seem to be working.
Well, at least the Techlevel, Hull Size, Configuration and Streamlining bits do...

It's a work in progress but it will eventually appear.

 

[Scarlett]

Man ... I wish you luck. I'd love to see the finished product. I think GDW should have started producing software Traveller utilities years ago. It still wouldn't be a bad idea for far future now.

My family (well my surname lineage) originally came from Scotland. Are you anywhere near Crieff?