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Software Development

Why? Force MS?

I have learned a lot in the time since I last posted.
Database sqlite is fine for any needs we might have and it is light and free.
Python is the best lang out there and cross platform.
QT is also cross platform and a super strong system with fast easy development.
QT can be used with Python.
XML is a pain in the butt but it makes the data take a form that lets anyone read and use it at any time it the future.

Modern computers are so fast and have such huge storage capacity that any talk about a lang being fast or the program being compact are worthless for anything like a traveller game. Writing a first person shooter or a google search engine then talk away. Don't limit yourself to one OS for development or production!!!
 
I have learned a lot in the time since I last posted.
Database sqlite is fine for any needs we might have and it is light and free.
Python is the best lang out there and cross platform.
QT is also cross platform and a super strong system with fast easy development.
QT can be used with Python.
XML is a pain in the butt but it makes the data take a form that lets anyone read and use it at any time it the future.

Modern computers are so fast and have such huge storage capacity that any talk about a lang being fast or the program being compact are worthless for anything like a traveller game. Writing a first person shooter or a google search engine then talk away. Don't limit yourself to one OS for development or production!!!


I completely understand your view....why limit it by os/language/database when you don't have to? Here is some food for thought. Let's say it is true that 70% of the users have a windows machine available to them and 20% use only a mac and the rest Linux. Linux and Mac have emulators that can run windows programs that are not specific hardware dependant with ease. Wouldn't you say that we've covered almost all bases?

I am not saying this because I am arguing a point or totally dismissing your ideas around development tools. What I am introducing as thought is that there are a whole bunch of VB developers out there compared to QT developers. And the developer community, right now, is just as important, if not more important, than the potential user base.

However, I think you make fantastic conversation and a valid argument for development environment.

But before we even get to that, we need a solid design. I am writing up a first high level draft of design for communication purposes. We need to establish not only what the project is, but how the community will develop the product.

I am asumming, however, that you are interested in being the first developer member. Being first come with rewards...:devil:
 
I completely understand your view....why limit it by os/language/database when you don't have to? Here is some food for thought. Let's say it is true that 70% of the users have a windows machine available to them and 20% use only a mac and the rest Linux. Linux and Mac have emulators that can run windows programs that are not specific hardware dependant with ease. Wouldn't you say that we've covered almost all bases?

I don't run emulators because it opens me up to MS viruses. Also I don't need any of the MS software (nor would I use it, if it were totally free but then that is just me!) On a more pragmatic standpoint, emulators often don't work. Take a look at Wine. It can run a lot but they have a huge list of things it will now work with.

I am not saying this because I am arguing a point or totally dismissing your ideas around development tools. What I am introducing as thought is that there are a whole bunch of VB developers out there compared to QT developers. And the developer community, right now, is just as important, if not more important, than the potential user base.

That might be true but I have no idea about the numbers. In any case I can't use VB. I have not bought it, I don't run MS and I don't want to learn VB again. On the other hand I don't count.


But before we even get to that, we need a solid design. I am writing up a first high level draft of design for communication purposes. We need to establish not only what the project is, but how the community will develop the product.

Great plan! I hope you are writing it in a format that we can all share.

I am asumming, however, that you are interested in being the first developer member. Being first come with rewards...:devil:

Sadly it is a bad assumption. I now have 2 job and 3 little kids and other projects. I would like to help when I can though. Be sure to email me at

magick.crow@gmail.com

I am also a defector. I have switched to Savage Worlds Traveller.

I strongly suggest you take a look at QT Creator.
http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools/

I don't know what you know about programming but almost all langs are about the same at a fundamental level. In the case of writing a GUI based Traveller game, I think anyone can program the C code needed. QT Creator does all the hard parts for you. You have have to write the little bits of code that are needed when each button is pressed and this is really basic stuff. I think you will be shocked at how little code is really needed.
 
I strongly suggest you take a look at QT Creator.
http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools/

I don't know what you know about programming but almost all langs are about the same at a fundamental level. In the case of writing a GUI based Traveller game, I think anyone can program the C code needed. QT Creator does all the hard parts for you. You have have to write the little bits of code that are needed when each button is pressed and this is really basic stuff. I think you will be shocked at how little code is really needed.

QT looks like it would fit the bill. Good stuff.
 
Using .net or Visual Basic pretty much means you get the roughly 70%-80% (not the 90% it was 15 years ago) using MSWindows rather than Mac or Linux. ANd further, if using current dev tools, it means XP or later only. Heck, Mac accounts for about 10% of the installed base by itself, and linux has been steadily growing; both are unix flavors.

You'd be far better off for code portability with Python and QT; that can also get you on PS2/3 hacker boxes, Mac, Linux, Windows, Unix, Solaris, and VMS. Likewise, using JAVA and a multi-platform windowing toolkit for Java.

The sales numbers don't represent the userbase properly, since the reality is that almost all linux installs are replacing OEM bundled MSWindows installs.
 
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Language Barriers

Hey, I am not disagreeing with any of you. I am more than happy to scrap what I have done (except for the design) and start over. I mean, I really haven't done that much as far a coding.

I will attest to the fact that anything written in MS Visual Studio is sloppy and ends up being huge. It takes a lot of clean-up, in most cases, to put out a really clean product. Then there is the whole issue of code repository. Yes, there are tools out there that run in linux and can handle VB, VC++, and other MS Visual Studio files like VCS. The build is much harder to manage than if it were something like QT or Python.

I wasn't passing judgement, nor was I even close to making a decision...Just pointing out some information that may or may not have been obvious.

As far as the amount of users using Mac vs. Windows vs. Linux..I admit that I pulled those numbers out of my but. Even if there is a discrepancy in the numbers, my point was still made. There are still a great majority using Windows--which mean that is first priority. Therefore, QT and Python are still valid, but on the other hand so is Visual Studio.

I am enjoying hearing the opinions and debates on development platforms. I have heard some very valid points and am considering QT. Not becoase it is necessarily better (which it might be), but because it is free to everyone. That always makes sense in starting up a community development project such as this.

With this said...If the development environment is free and the source code versioning system is free..Then we are off to a good start. I am going to spend a few days really diving into QT. Honestly, it has been a while since I have even programmed anything in C or Java...So there will some ramp up time for me, but it's not just my project anymore...it will be whomever want to join the effort.

I am sorry to hear of you situation MagicK.Crow..Believe it or not..I have 5 Kids (mostly all teenagers) and wonderful wife...a difficult ex-wife, a boat load of bills and a several jobs (some I get paid for)...I see myself at this point as a ring leader, a promoter, and top-level decision maker, I will be involved in design and some coding, but mostly making sure things are done properly so it all integrates. I think you could probably handle being a voice of design. Maybe reviewing code (if it is QT or Python, and helping to establish best practices/standards for the project. maybe a few hours a week at the most...But if you really can't that is fine...You were the first to reply to new post...so there is a little sentimental value in it for me....:D
 
As far as the amount of users using Mac vs. Windows vs. Linux..I admit that I pulled those numbers out of my but. Even if there is a discrepancy in the numbers, my point was still made. There are still a great majority using Windows--which mean that is first priority.

No prob. Even the LOWEST numbers figured by using web traffic has Windows @ >90% usage.
 
For the general population you could look at NetMarketShare. (Though I’m a little concerned over the fact that a sizable minority of Windows users are still surfing the net with pre-XP machines ... they are zombie-fodder, which affects everyone else even Mac and Linux users.

Alternatively, if you suspect the makeup of the Traveller community may differ from the general population(*) then the figures for the current year for visitors to StuffOnline (my mainly Traveller website) are as follows:
  • Windows – 87.78%
  • Apple Mac – 7.22%
  • Linux – 2.49%
  • Other – 2.23%
  • iPhone – 0.22%
  • Android – 0.04%
  • Mobile WAP – 0.03%
(Sorry, my web stat service doesn't break down the types any finer than that, at least not for free.)



* = Different types of people are drawn to different OSs:
  • Corporate drones tend to favour Windows PCs (and are very happy with them)
  • Arty types tend to favour Macs (and delude themselves there are at least as many Macs and PCs)
  • Geeks tend to favour Linux (and think everyone else should change).
Therefore, in theory, the Traveller community should have a greater percentage of Mac users and Linux users than the general population, but still with Windows users as the majority. (Myself, I’m a geeky corporate drone ... tried Linux once and went straight back to Windows.)
 
I've been a Mac and Linux user for years. For a while, I was running a dual boot Linux & Max... A typical linux install is enough to give most people the heebie jeebies... it's typically a throwback to looking like a DOS 5 install... Once Mac OS went BSD based, I stopped using Linux.
 
>Though I’m a little concerned over the fact that a sizable minority of Windows users are still surfing the net with pre-XP machines

they are probably waiting for the final stable patch for XP before upgrading :rofl:

my last desktop was a dual boot 97 / xp machine .... until an xp update f*d both

in a lot of cases the really old builds are apparently safer .... ie properly patched but not upgraded to IE6+ .... no vulnerability inducing add-ons
 
When Microsoft announced some years ago that they would no longer be issuing patches for Win95, my initial reaction was:
"Does that mean it's finished now?"
 
in a lot of cases the really old builds are apparently safer .... ie properly patched but not upgraded to IE6+ .... no vulnerability inducing add-ons

There is no "safe" build of Windows. Until they get away from the NT architecture there won't be. The max rating for any Windows system is EAL4.

That being said, >90% of computers hitting the internet are Windows. Oh well.
 
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There is no "safe" build of Windows. Until they get away from the NT architecture there won't be.

For the three main desktop OS (Windows, Mac, Linux) the biggest issue is the user, not the technology itself. Most security breaches occur due to poor user habits. And this is as true for WinNT as it was for Win9x.

When it comes to the actual technology then, from what I’ve seen, Mac is slightly worse than Windows in absolute terms ... but due to its larger install base Windows is more heavily targeted. I forget where Linux falls but given the small install base plus the fact that you have to be an expert to use it you probably get a lower incidence of security breaches.

Going back to focus on Windows PCs: most security breaches exploit issues for which there are already patches available. So if you have a growing number of legacy PCs you now have an emerging situation where an exploit in NT is targeted, a patch for modern PCs is produced, but the legacy PCs remain vulnerable.

I suppose it could be argued that if Microsoft came out with a successor to WinNT, ignoring the issue of codebase maturity, then attacks on modern PCs would not be compatible with legacy PCs ... the target surface area would be split. In the meantime there is no “safe” build of any desktop OS, and probably never will. I doubt such a thing is even truly possible.

The max rating for any Windows system is EAL4.

The EAL rating does not measure the security of the system itself, it simply states at what level the system was tested. Most commercial desktop vendors (Microsoft, SUSE, Red Hat) only seem to bother with EAL 4. Mac OS/X 10.6 has EAL 3 (but that does not mean it couldn’t get EAL 4 if Apple submitted it). If a high EAL rating is your thing then there is always the Integrity-178B from Green Hills Software (it got EAL 6 and is used in the F-16, F-22, F-35, Airbus A380, and Boeing 787) ... but I don’t know how well it would function for desktop use. YMMV.
 
For the three main desktop OS (Windows, Mac, Linux) the biggest issue is the user, not the technology itself. Most security breaches occur due to poor user habits. And this is as true for WinNT as it was for Win9x.

When it comes to the actual technology then, from what I’ve seen, Mac is slightly worse than Windows in absolute terms ... but due to its larger install base Windows is more heavily targeted.

Of course users make a major difference. However, due to inherent problems with Win registry system & the networking code base there are major exploitable holes that will never go away. For Mac & Linux, you're right. So few people use those systems that it isn't worth peoples time to create malware for them.

Going back to focus on Windows PCs: most security breaches exploit issues for which there are already patches available. So if you have a growing number of legacy PCs you now have an emerging situation where an exploit in NT is targeted, a patch for modern PCs is produced, but the legacy PCs remain vulnerable.

Yes and no. There is no real patch available to defend against well constructed "root kits". Due to MS licensing requirements for security vendors with Vista & Win 7 this is more problematic than it was for XP as far as proactive 3rd party protection.

The EAL rating does not measure the security of the system itself, it simply states at what level the system was tested.

Strictly speaking yes. However there is a design aspect that goes into it. No matter how much testing is done at what cost, Windows will never be at 6 or 7 as there are design criteria at that level. See Orange book for original specs on which CC is based.
 
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Hello All,
First post in this thread just read through it - pretty disappointed.

I hasten to add at this point I am LINUX user, have been since 1994, stopped dual booting last century.
Later one of the benefits I can add its to look at the proposed implementations and see if it can be made to work under LINUX, and point out if it cannot before anyone writes a line of code- assuming LINUX is at least desirable as a target audience. I am sure there are people that can do the same on OSX.

Personally, I think the "OS+setup is rubbish at security is derailing the thread", it started off with such hope. I really could not care much less if I tried - and I have, if Windows measures up to some security specification - that is for government and large commercial buyers. We are feeding back on a character generator. Windows users needs to be within the target audience.

The DB argument was more relevant from an implementation point of view, but even that was jumping the gun.

A much better discussion is which Windows OSs and configs to be compatible with - should be go back to ME/98/95?. Still premature in my book.

My thoughts from a CT point of view:
Gal2.4 works well for me for sector mapping. Never have got H & E to work under LINUX.
Online character generators spit out characters for CT.

There is a huge difference to me in pointing my web-browser at a site that is hosted by someone else at their expense and having software to produce an NPC on my computer.

There are actually 2 inputs I can see that have not been addressed, that affect architecture.
1) The level interaction required during character generation.
2) Are we producing a PC generator where the user has control or an NPC generator load up variables - and a character gets generated.

There is a lot of input such as home-world, pre-career etc decisions to make in T5 - but it is focused towards the beginning of the process - there is only one career, so looks a good a candidate for complete automation with variables (i.e. scenario 2 above).

Sorry do not know what someone is trying to produce, so which DB (if any by the way as (2) is stateless), security and the rest of the posts after the first few are jumping to design before requirements.

Of course users make a major difference. However, due to inherent problems with Win registry system & the networking code base there are major exploitable holes that will never go away. For Mac & Linux, you're right. So few people use those systems that it isn't worth peoples time to create malware for them.



Yes and no. There is no real patch available to defend against well constructed "root kits". Due to MS licensing requirements for security vendors with Vista & Win 7 this is more problematic than it was for XP as far as proactive 3rd party protection.



Strictly speaking yes. However there is a design aspect that goes into it. No matter how much testing is done at what cost, Windows will never be at 6 or 7 as there are design criteria at that level. See Orange book for original specs on which CC is based.
 
There is no "safe" build of Windows. Until they get away from the NT architecture there won't be. The max rating for any Windows system is EAL4.

That being said, >90% of computers hitting the internet are Windows. Oh well.

Actually the NT family of Windows (NT 3.5x, NT4, 2000, XP, Vista, 7) is about as secure as a good commercial UNIX (AIX, Solaris) and more secure than a basic Linux (Win NT has finer access control, ACL etc). Any more security and the system is getting in the way of the user (See Vista).

Give a DAU (Most Stupid Imaginable User) a Unixoid and it will be as vulnerable as a Windows Box (i.e using root permanently etc). Give a professional a Windows box and it's as secure as a good Unix (And beats the Penguin anytime)
 
OK tried to get it back on track, personally cannot see how mentioning Windows 200, 3.5 and NT4 has any bearing on the development of character generation software for T5- I give up, saves going to flame war forums.

After Nt3.5 all versions are inherently unsafe by design because of the amount of 3rd party code running at ring 0. Windows 2008 and Vista+ address this by at least warning if MS have not signed the driver during install.

NT 3.5 - totally agree - nice and secure - of it's time, can even turn the GUI off (cannot remeber the command) memory was imporant back then, Netware had only just got over the 16MB barrier - my home router as 32MB. Device Driver interface encouraged delegation to less execution contextes (remember it worked on CPUs other than X86 so no concept of ring 0).
NT 4+ - Shove the drivers into Ring 0 (no alpha support) - changed driver interface. The beginning of the end but at least direct X ran - like you need that on a server.

Nt 3.5 was the last "by design" version of Windows NT.
I hasten to add Windows Vista added a lot with UAC, Windows 7 has broken it again.

What use is an ACL if a domain security token overrides (which it does and gain from granting the right from the PDC)?
Compare the above model to the fact on most LINUX (Fedora, Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu - ie all the desktop/server distributions) you can control the api calls allowed to the C library (all apps link to it) and the calls marshalled through to device drivers in the o.

Any chance we can get back to T5 character generation?

Actually the NT family of Windows (NT 3.5x, NT4, 2000, XP, Vista, 7) is about as secure as a good commercial UNIX (AIX, Solaris) and more secure than a basic Linux (Win NT has finer access control, ACL etc). Any more security and the system is getting in the way of the user (See Vista).

Give a DAU (Most Stupid Imaginable User) a Unixoid and it will be as vulnerable as a Windows Box (i.e using root permanently etc). Give a professional a Windows box and it's as secure as a good Unix (And beats the Penguin anytime)
 
Drivers are a problem in EVERY system. If they are buggy/malware they will compromise any system. Read up on the original Internet bug that affected UNIX and VMS systems far better designed than Linux. Installing the "update of the month" is a PEPCAC problem, not a system one. That's why Windows has a security rating equal or better than the Unixoids.

As for GUIs on a server - yes, they ARE useful. Far better than using text editors to work on even the well-organised / maintained SOLARIS and SVID4-compatible config files not to mention the ever mutating jungle on linux.
 
Drivers are a problem in EVERY system. If they are buggy/malware they will compromise any system. Read up on the original Internet bug that affected UNIX and VMS systems far better designed than Linux. Installing the "update of the month" is a PEPCAC problem, not a system one. That's why Windows has a security rating equal or better than the Unixoids.

As for GUIs on a server - yes, they ARE useful. Far better than using text editors to work on even the well-organised / maintained SOLARIS and SVID4-compatible config files not to mention the ever mutating jungle on linux.

Here the OS we need. http://www.ghs.com/products/rtos/integrity.html
EAL6
 
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