Slavery/indentured servitude

[Lochlaber]

Inside the Imperium, no world would practice outright chattel slavery and expect to survive very long. They couldn't import slaves because of Imperial law and the Imperial Navy who would tend to follow slavers into atmosphere, despite planetary objections.

Internally, a government who goes around enslaving it's citizens, tends to get that citizenry in an uproar and I wouldn't doubt that some bureau of the Imperium, might not help them equip them for a revolt, possibly even lead it. In fact, IMTU the Imperium has such a bureau, given over to changing governments which practice such activities. (Thank you Mack Reynolds).

IMTU, there is personal service contracts which can be a lot like indentured service, except that the person in question goes free and clear after the contract is finished, in as good of, if not better mental and physical health when they entered it, plus receive a handsome payment, despite what might happen during the term of service, yes is a Adult only universe.

Outside the Imperium, slavery exists, mainly on low tech level planets, mainly due to manpower needs than anything else. The higher the tech level, the less likely there would be the need for slaves, since a robot is less likely to revolt, slit the master's throat, etc., as already mentioned.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Lochlaber:
Inside the Imperium, no world would practice outright chattel slavery and expect to survive very long. They couldn't import slaves because of Imperial law and the Imperial Navy who would tend to follow slavers into atmosphere, despite planetary objections.

Not in the OTU, the planet's sovereignty must be respected by the IN.
And besides, the Imperium practices slavery (the deyo transponder chip )

Internally, a government who goes around enslaving it's citizens, tends to get that citizenry in an uproar and I wouldn't doubt that some bureau of the Imperium, might not help them equip them for a revolt, possibly even lead it. In fact, IMTU the Imperium has such a bureau, given over to changing governments which practice such activities. (Thank you Mack Reynolds).

Such an agency doesn't exist within the OTU though
The Imperium allows member worlds to develop into beacons of enlightenment or cesspits of depravity - just as long as they keep paying their taxes and don't interfere with interstellar economics.

IMTU, there is personal service contracts which can be a lot like indentured service, except that the person in question goes free and clear after the contract is finished, in as good of, if not better mental and physical health when they entered it, plus receive a handsome payment, despite what might happen during the term of service, yes it is a Adult only universe.

Nice idea - I'll be borrowing it

Outside the Imperium, slavery exists, mainly on low tech level planets, mainly due to manpower needs than anything else. The higher the tech level, the less likely there would be the need for slaves, since a robot is less likely to revolt, slit the master's throat, etc., as already mentioned.

What about biologically based robots - androids in Traveller - do they have machine rights or sophont rights?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Fascinating discussion!

"Outside of the Imperium," being the premise (I shall adhere to the author of the thread's thrust here):

Lower-technology worlds are not alone in the use of the argument of slavery vs. "robotic work-force" (TL-10+).

"The Company Store/World"--your salary is 1000cr a month, but the employee's living / life-support expenses are all but say less than 10%. Laws fine you here, causing debt to the Company...perpetually keeping the employee there.

Prostitution, the "oldest profession" (ahem, Hunting & farming were, if I may be historically accurate), is also a form of slavery (pimps, organized crime, even organized brothel-houses, or guilds of such workers)--robots replace them? Lets not do the fembots here, please?

Debtor's prisons, work-gangs, all sorts of variants there economically. You owe, and aren't dead & work it off, if you can, and can survive the "work".

Addiction to substances, is a form of slavery. In a write up for our Ursula Camapign, EFATE's Oligarchy of Nobles (Govt 3) had the monopoly on the medical drug tikrisine, which allowed normal lives against the slow insidious atmospheric taint from native plants there sporing 2-3 times a year in their yearly trip around their star. Want freedom, no drugs, fine! Live 40-50 years, die of respiratory infections, diseases. Want to live, take this drug--normal lifespan at TL-13, but...you have t have it annually or the respiratory spores in your body blossom and rupture within your lungs & vascular system and you die of internal hemmorhaging..

To the Athenian Democracy posters--recall please, citizens of Athens could vote, everyone else, could not, but not all within Athen's walls were slaves--some were freedmen, others foreigners or other Greeks from other city states (merchants, laborers hired to do work, etc).

Slavery, from my history degree's studies, is a mindset imposed upon people by other people with the power to set it over them. Any government made of mankind generally has practiced it; Some move on and abolish it; Some even primitive (TL0-3)cultures have set humane rules, as those above have posted (nods to Fritz 88 & Daryen).

You will of course apply what kind of slavery (Mental, chemical, economic, physical) upon what world/govt your players come acrossGChuck.

Lovely topic folks. Anyone else?

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

I just cannot get away from the thought, that modern industrial slavery is just a common aspect in a universe, which is ruled by nobility and megacorporations.
Of course "slavery" is forbidden by imperial law, but who actually cares for a few percent of people working for so little money, that they could perhaps feed their family, but just dont have enough money left to change place or situation in any way .

Shudder....


Regards,

Mert

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Hi !

I just cannot get away from the thought, that modern industrial slavery is just a common aspect in a universe, which is ruled by nobility and megacorporations.
Of course "slavery" is forbidden by imperial law, but who actually cares for a few percent of people working for so little money, that they could perhaps feed their family, but just dont have enough money left to change place or situation in any way .

Shudder....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TE...

You can of course, apply that certain unscrupulous 'Imperial megacorp subdivisions/ subsidiary facility-worlds, settlements do this. Not all. Or not. Its YTU dude. I addressed the "Outside the Imperium" issue questioned by the author, don't let it get you down.

IMTU, yes wherever Imperial oversight is low, they do try and wring every credit they can--but thats just "my take" on the Imperium. Sooner or later, in the Imperium, word gets out, and the MOJ looks into it.

The Good News! There are few megacorporations outside of the major powers (Zhodani-Solomani-Imperial-Hiver federation-Aslan Hierate-K'Kree 2000 Worlds-Vargr Extants).

The Bad news: There are more small-time, system-wide, subsector-sized corporate 'slaver' villains between the Major Powers of the Traveller Universe.

You can of course, in YTU take a more humanist-sophont friendlier view. Me? I'll go with the baser natures of man, and paint it darker.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi Liam !

I just wanted to point on a actual real world problem. In fact even without nobility and megacorps we already have massive problems with "industrial slavery" on this planet.
Now just think of an interstellar economy....
This could appear as a men eating monster regarding the rights and living conditions for parts of the working classes.

So, I guess your dark picture is perhaps just a pretty realistic one.
Good stuff for hero Travellers to fight for the right of supressed people

Regards,

Mert

 

[Liam Devlin]

Hello TE--Guten Tag!

Yes, we have RL-RW issues here on ole Terra enough.

Yep, leaves room for the players who want to get involved or get crossways between rival bad guys even! Lotta adventure fodder here, with moral shades of grey-black and white to go around!

TY for the compliment sir!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Actually Velteyn, & other posters...

isn't the Zhodani Consulate an Athenian Democracy in practice? The Psionic-elite (Intendants & Nobles)have the vote (suffrage) & power, but must manage & keep happy/ prosperous their prole masses?

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by daryen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maladominus:
Government type. Hmm, democracies would refrain from slavery.

Uh, dude, you have taken American history in class, right? [I checked, Maladominus claims to be from the US.]

The pre-Civil War United States was a functioning representative democracy with a well established slave system.

Any political system can support slavery if they so desire. </font>[/QUOTE]Slavery was uniformly practiced by the hellenic cultures, in various degrees. Most primitive cultures have slavery in some form.

BTW, the Geonee view sounds very familiar... like, say, militant sharia islamic cultures. Saudi, Qatar, Iran, several of the ___istans...

Slavery existed in the United states until 1892... Pennsylvania didn't abolish slavery until then. Or, at least, according to documents my grandmother had, specifically the notice of manumission of her father's slaves, and the state censuses, that's when slavery ended there. And Pensylvania fought for the Union! (My grandmother's childhood "household servants" were all former slaves, all who stayed on after manumission. I thought she was nuts 'til I found slaves listed in an 1880's PA state census...)

Slavery will exist in traveller; sometimes overt, sometimes covert. I tend to see it primarily as a cultural equality axis; there is no reason a high tech culture might not be slave-keepers; The roles they serve would be very different than in low-tech, but could be quite a life saver.

Likewise, when slavery is not racial in basis, unlike the US and UK history, but like the roman, greek, amerind, and several african cultures, is based upon capture or indebtedness, the system can and does find stability. Further, when slaves are treated well, but not too well, and have some potential for manumission, they often will work towards manumission rather than risk perpetuation.

In a high-tech society, say TL 11+, slaves would likely be used for sexual industries, household servants, entertainers, gladiators, and caregivers, even artisans. After all, a modern major corporate term contract is often only slightly better than a well treated slave.

Military conscription is clearly a term of involuntary servitude; it is in many ways a form of slavery. Heck, the only real difference for non-conscripts is that one volunteered to suspend most of the bill of rights for one's self.

As a school district employee, I am subject to restrictions upon free speech, travel (not supposed to leave the country during the school year; must show up for work at specific times and days), behavior (No sex with persons under 21, no smoking in view of school grounds, no participation in public political process beyond voting), association (I can be terminated if I associate with a convicted sex offender; a friend of mine is married to one, a good friend from high school is one), public performance (No gender-bending roles, no "controversial roles", no nude roles). Heck, I'm even required to have higher than minimum car insurance, just in case I might be required to carry students.

 

[Plankowner]

Aramis, I would argue that your situation is NOT slavery. You are not forced to work under those conditions, you could quit and go somewhere else any time you wanted. Slavery is when a person has no say in what they do. They are property. Every corporate employee has restrictions on their liberties to some extent. I can be fired if I publicly criticize the company I work for. That isn't slavery.

I am NOT trying to start a political thread here, and yes, there are probably aspects of limiting rights and liberties in ANY job, but that isn't slavery. Slavery is INVOLUNTARY in some manner.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Sigg--as to the "slavery" of robots, we do have by way of MT/Traveller the Shudusham Accords (traveller's version of Asimov Laws of robots).

Some portions of the Imperium in the late 3rd Imperium viewed sentient* (the key word here, meaning AI-pseudobiological types*, i.e. Ay-beb-Owen, or AB-101) Robots as equals (Strephon's region of space, Core, Gushemege), others as merely "smart machines", or "property" (Ilelish, Massilia, Delphi).

Margaret's Domain went to the point of stating if a sophont had 50% or more cyberware they too were a 'machine', and thus "property" like any robot.

Small wonder the AI-Viral sentient robots tendencies of the freed slaves afterwards in the TNE-era Traveller. Some still have subservient attitudes towards their former masters (humans), others seek equal status, and yet the rest view humans as a threat, to now be in role rversal, the servant, and they the masters!

I think, even in the GURPS ATU, the regional views of the Imperium vs Robots & their rights, etc is a matter based on the MT-era of the game. As I don't own GURPS-Trav, nor play it, this is admittedly a supposition without a leg of fact to it, so YMMV.

Mr Brinkhues--on Monastaries being a form of slavery...Depends sir, how you became a member. Yes, in medieval times, poorer second,& third sons got 'dumped' there due to primogeniture, yes. But taking the vows was still voluntary, no matter your take on it. I am not defending abuses of the RCC here, nor making a Political Pulpit statement, just pointing out that the argument on its face alone is hollow sir. However, in the pre-Black Plague Europe, becoming a Knight, or the rising through the RC church were the two ways open to a person of non-noble birth to rise in power, lands, or & influence.

Serfdom--That was slavery! Born on the land, sold with the land, owned by a 'nobleman' & other propertied person.

Plankowner, Aramis..
we are all "wage slaves" we who hold jobs, and work for another person. Unless you own the company, you sell your time for $$ of some sort to another person, or corporation (owned by someone). A Fine line, gentlemen, true. We all have freedom to change jobs, locations, etc, in our nation. In other places of the world, some folks do not, but we speak of slavery as the author of this thread started, in the region "outside the Imperium".

I now step off the podium and let someone else write.

Good clean discussion, and good ideas!

[edited for spelling errors]

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by mickazoid:
There is also the practical equivalent to slavery - the 'remote labor' force. In such a setting, instead of being a captive workforce the slaves live and work in their own native lands/worlds - but their economies and rights are carefully restricted for the direct profit of the upper class, and they are grossly undercompensated for the value of the product of their labor.

It can certainly be said that whole systems are 'enslaved' to various powers. It can also be said that this kind of experience often breeds revolution.

================================================================

Ms Mickazoid --interesting example, yes!
We see seeds of this in Europe & USA today with an immigrant work force. It also occurs in Arab nations with TCN's (Third Country Nationals the euphemisim is known), with cheap outside labor to build their buildings, clean up te sewers, pick up garbage, and do every job beneath the dignity of the actual resident-citizens of those nations.

And yes, in Dubai, workers did strike and destroy 1 million $$ US on a 114 million dollar (US not Euros) hotel casino project recently. All these workers came from nations poorer than Dubai (part of the United Arab Emirates-UAE).

Classic class warfare 'Haves' vs 'have-nots'. Happens, sadly, more often than not. They work brutal days, in brutal weather for money--but its money that's worth more than their currency at home.

thanks for the post & example!

 

[aramis]

As most teachers are under term contracts, the distiction is far less clear. (Teachers are NOT allowed to quit except between years, unless there are exceptional circumstances, at least by terms of th local contracts...)

It is voluntary paid servitude for a term... and is just this side of being indenture.

 

[Liam Devlin]

In defense of Aramis' argument, and as a member of the volunteer armed forces (Army), we too have a contract, limited freedom of speech, and other inhibitions placed upon us when we take the oath and don the coat for Uncle Sam for his shilling.

There are ways out of the contract short of completing it of course, but none savory, honorable, or safe come to mind.

 

[Liam Devlin]

While we're on the topic, a slight digression: We are using historical examples of slavery I note for the most part.

How about some examples of slavery used in a Traveller campaign (CT-MT-TNE, T20, yes even GT)?

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Depending on the Traveller era slavery might be presented differently.

CT:
Classic economical slavery in Classic Traveller
Players are hired by the Interstellar Amesty organisation to investigate a remote mining colony, because several people disappeared under mysterious ways.
Local government officals where not helpful, even because they dont what to disturb official relationships to Imperial authority.
Players have to find out, that the mining colonie is and few "clean" official production facilities are just a cover for a place, where criminals as well as political dissidents and also just regular people are forced to hazardous work in order to maximize profits.
Time for Traveller heros to do their work.

MT 2:
With all the chaos around, local law levels rise, at many places democracy is just a forgotten word and new local Land- or Warlords appear.
On a balcanized frontier planet players are contacted by (wealthy?) fugitives, who beg the players for helping them.
A former SDB Captain used his ship to seize control in a neighbored state and recently occupied the fugitives homeland, forcing inhabitants into slavery in order to feed himself and his people.

TNE:
Well, the general setting provides a great background to set up machine over men societies.
In this special case a virus CAREFULLY has taken control of an self-maintaining-arcology with millions of inhabitants. It nearly perfectly simulates interaction with the "outside".
To the outside everything appears to be normal here, but in fact the arcologies administration is merely a puppet of its AI master and perhaps nobody is allowed to leave this place.
Of course the players job is to make the people know, whats going on here and to take out (but perhaps even negotiate) the AI.
At least variants could present several tastes of slavery:
- People know, that they are not free, but they feel ok with this situation, because treatment is well and the acrology is a pretty safe place. The AI cares for them. The computer is your friend.
- The AI is only concerned about the condition of its living environment and people are held in order to do maintainance and defence. As long as everybody does his job, everything is ok...

Just random thoughts...

 

[Plankowner]

The infamous Shanghai scenario is useable in all eras I would assume.

Players are kidnapped and drugged. They wake up on a small asteroid miner and are told that they need to prospect and refine a certain amount of ore every month or they don't get food and fuel and air.

Once a month a ship arrives and collects their ore. After it is analyzed, they are given food, fuel and life support for 1 more month.

The system they are in has only an asteroid belt. The only inhabitants of the system are the PC's ship and others like it. None of the ships are jump capable and there might even be some, uhm, competition between different ships of miners.

The crew of the supply ship is VERY careful and has been doing this for a long time, they have seen just about every attempt to sneak, smuggle, sabotage their ship.

OK Players, survive and escape!

 

[mike wightman]

Ahh, the opening gambit in the CT Adventure Expedition to Zhodane if I'm not mistaken.

I've always considered the revolutionary miners of Dinom (Across the Bright Face) to be corporate slaves...

 

[Liam Devlin]

I see the corporate-slavery examples here well represented, and the Warlord'we-have-guns-(SDB) do-as-I-say' model (MT/HT); Also the TNE- AI-overlord & its organic occupants/sophonts in a unusual twist.

Any others?

 

[Mickazoid]

There's the ol' reliable 'subjugated population under the brutal heel of an offworld dictator, slaving and suffering and awaiting their salvation'.