lightsenshi
SOC-12
Why are the only weapons that can be silenced are pistols? What happened to SMG and long gun sound suppressors?
Silencers?
- Thread starter lightsenshi
- Start date
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be silencers for smg's or long rifles. It would make sense to me that a sniper would want to silence their rifle. However I would note that any weapon with a rate of fire greater than one would reduce the effectiveness of a silencer. Please note that in theory gauss weapons would not need silencing, however a "silenced" gauss gun would be a gun that has a less noticable EM spike.
Hello all.
I recently got in this discussion with my gaming group about silencers. All the PC's wanted them. Now I am familiar with firearms having been a hunter and target shooter for over 20 years so I have more than armchair experience with firearms.
I assume you are not in an a vacuum
SILENCERS. To make a weapon truly silent two things have to happen. The expanding gases exiting a firearm must be absorbed or muffled. The volume of hot gasses produced by even a small hand gun cartridge is extensive. It is this rapidly expanding hot gasses that make the bulk of the noise.
Next, the velocity of the round must be subsonic. Bullets traveling faster than the speed of sound create a sonic boom as the travel through the atmosphere.
TRULY SILENT guns are rare, bulky, low power and short range. They are the stuff of the CIA and are likely to be single shot or manually cycled. They will fire pistol ammunition only.
REVOLVERS cannot be silenced. There is a gap between the revolving cylinder and the barrel from which hot gases escape and make noise.
SUPRESSORS. These are what you commonly see in TV and the movies. Although in the real world, they are typically larger than what you see on TV. They reduce the amount of noise emitted from a gun, but a suppressed weapon is still quite loud. Automatic fire will reduce the effectiveness of suppressors. The gun will also make noise as rounds cycle through weapon’s action.
RIFELS and SHOTGUNS the amount of hot gasses produced by even a relatively small rifle cartridge is just too large to effective silence or surprises. Shotguns cannot be silenced.
GAUSE WEAPONS are not silent! Any object, even a 4mm projectile, traveling at the hypersonic speed produced by gauss rifle will make a sonic boom. If fired at full auto this would have a considerable staccato effect.
LSAER WEAPONS. The firing of a laser weapon would be the closest thing to a silent weapon available to a traveller character. They may however, not be completely silent. If a laser weapon hits with a great pulse of energy the moisture in the target may flash boil and cause a loud steam explosion.
Another note on lasers. If the weapon fires at a visible wavelength there will be no visible trail unless there is something for the laser to reflect off of. I.E. smoke or fog. Infrared wavelengths would be invisible to the naked eye. IR goggles would permit viewing under the restriction listed above.
I hope I haven't gone on too long.
I recently got in this discussion with my gaming group about silencers. All the PC's wanted them. Now I am familiar with firearms having been a hunter and target shooter for over 20 years so I have more than armchair experience with firearms.
I assume you are not in an a vacuum
SILENCERS. To make a weapon truly silent two things have to happen. The expanding gases exiting a firearm must be absorbed or muffled. The volume of hot gasses produced by even a small hand gun cartridge is extensive. It is this rapidly expanding hot gasses that make the bulk of the noise.
Next, the velocity of the round must be subsonic. Bullets traveling faster than the speed of sound create a sonic boom as the travel through the atmosphere.
TRULY SILENT guns are rare, bulky, low power and short range. They are the stuff of the CIA and are likely to be single shot or manually cycled. They will fire pistol ammunition only.
REVOLVERS cannot be silenced. There is a gap between the revolving cylinder and the barrel from which hot gases escape and make noise.
SUPRESSORS. These are what you commonly see in TV and the movies. Although in the real world, they are typically larger than what you see on TV. They reduce the amount of noise emitted from a gun, but a suppressed weapon is still quite loud. Automatic fire will reduce the effectiveness of suppressors. The gun will also make noise as rounds cycle through weapon’s action.
RIFELS and SHOTGUNS the amount of hot gasses produced by even a relatively small rifle cartridge is just too large to effective silence or surprises. Shotguns cannot be silenced.
GAUSE WEAPONS are not silent! Any object, even a 4mm projectile, traveling at the hypersonic speed produced by gauss rifle will make a sonic boom. If fired at full auto this would have a considerable staccato effect.
LSAER WEAPONS. The firing of a laser weapon would be the closest thing to a silent weapon available to a traveller character. They may however, not be completely silent. If a laser weapon hits with a great pulse of energy the moisture in the target may flash boil and cause a loud steam explosion.
Another note on lasers. If the weapon fires at a visible wavelength there will be no visible trail unless there is something for the laser to reflect off of. I.E. smoke or fog. Infrared wavelengths would be invisible to the naked eye. IR goggles would permit viewing under the restriction listed above.
I hope I haven't gone on too long.
typically, I will use a seperate supplement for firearms as opposed to energy weapons. The guide to ultramodern firearms is pretty good and it's designed for the d20 system.
Small note, revolvers CAN be silenced. There are a few (very small number) that have been developed. Most, though are revolvers designed specifically to be quiet. In 1972 Dan Wesson manufactured a revolver that was suppressed. here's another reference:
http://www.voentour.com/mhp/catalog/handguns/nagant.shtml
Small note, revolvers CAN be silenced. There are a few (very small number) that have been developed. Most, though are revolvers designed specifically to be quiet. In 1972 Dan Wesson manufactured a revolver that was suppressed. here's another reference:
http://www.voentour.com/mhp/catalog/handguns/nagant.shtml
One major advantage of silencers that is rarely addressed (especially with rifles and smgs) is that recoil is noticably reduced. Muzzle blast is reduced significantly and when firing, especially from a prone position, the visible signs such as muzzle flash and kicking up dust when the barrel is close to the ground are reduced considerably.
In addition, if you reduce the sound of the weapon's report to below that of the supersonic crack of a passing bullet it can be extremely difficult to localise where the shot was fired from. Some silencers also change the intensity of particular sound frequencies so while the gun is still quite loud, to the uninitiated it doesn't sound like a gunshot.
Of course, the only truly silent firearm is a thing of holywood legend. Or a knife.
John Robertson
- While the new sniper states that with new silenced rifle he can kill many more of the enemy the old hand points out that it's not how many you kill but who you kill that counts... but then again, killing all of them is good too.
In addition, if you reduce the sound of the weapon's report to below that of the supersonic crack of a passing bullet it can be extremely difficult to localise where the shot was fired from. Some silencers also change the intensity of particular sound frequencies so while the gun is still quite loud, to the uninitiated it doesn't sound like a gunshot.
Of course, the only truly silent firearm is a thing of holywood legend. Or a knife.
John Robertson
- While the new sniper states that with new silenced rifle he can kill many more of the enemy the old hand points out that it's not how many you kill but who you kill that counts... but then again, killing all of them is good too.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
Would the snub pistol, firing tranq rounds, be fairly silent? Just asking, cos this is going to be important to an upcoming session in our campaign.
Rover sed:
"...GAUSE WEAPONS are not silent!..."
Which is the epitome of:
Libris sed:
"...if you reduce the sound of the weapon's report to below that of the supersonic crack of a passing bullet it can be extremely difficult to localise where the shot was fired from..."
How much noise does a supersonic thing make behind it? I have memories of diagrams of shock wave footprints for supersonic aircraft...
How much noise do you think the action of a Gauss Rifle makes? Would someone in the next hotel room hear one? It'd be easy to build a very quiet specialist receiver, because there need be no external moving parts or ejecta.
"...GAUSE WEAPONS are not silent!..."
Which is the epitome of:
Libris sed:
"...if you reduce the sound of the weapon's report to below that of the supersonic crack of a passing bullet it can be extremely difficult to localise where the shot was fired from..."
How much noise does a supersonic thing make behind it? I have memories of diagrams of shock wave footprints for supersonic aircraft...
How much noise do you think the action of a Gauss Rifle makes? Would someone in the next hotel room hear one? It'd be easy to build a very quiet specialist receiver, because there need be no external moving parts or ejecta.
I'm not sure on the amount of noise created by a supersonic round but given drag equations, I would say it is proporional to it's speed.
You generally can't "follow" a supersonic crack back to its source since it has passed you before the sound reaches you. Rather, localisation tends to be at 90 or so degrees to whichever way your ears happen to be pointing at the time. While this is fine in theory; you simply look for the firer 90 degrees off the sound, human nature doesn't work this way and your brain tends to point you towards what it perceives as the threat. You can follow a subsonic sound to an extent and the slower the round the easier it tends to be. Of course, a subsonic round isn't usually making much noise!
A sealed Snub pistol would still make a noise. Think of an air pistol or air rifle. Low intensity, but still there.
John Robertson
You generally can't "follow" a supersonic crack back to its source since it has passed you before the sound reaches you. Rather, localisation tends to be at 90 or so degrees to whichever way your ears happen to be pointing at the time. While this is fine in theory; you simply look for the firer 90 degrees off the sound, human nature doesn't work this way and your brain tends to point you towards what it perceives as the threat. You can follow a subsonic sound to an extent and the slower the round the easier it tends to be. Of course, a subsonic round isn't usually making much noise!
A sealed Snub pistol would still make a noise. Think of an air pistol or air rifle. Low intensity, but still there.
John Robertson
Another thing about (most) silencers is that they need to be cleaned fairly frequently. Otherwise that same carbon that mucks up the proper operation of a weapon, clogs the gas dispersion properties of the silencer. I recall one silencer model that was basically washers in a cylinder that had holes drilled in it. Other silencers includer 2 liter bottles stuffed with cotton or wadding. It all depends on what you are looking for.
Rover, wasn't trying to be a jerk, just wanted all the info available to anyone that wants it.
BTW, when I was in Bosnia, I was stationed with the Russian liaison team and got a chance to fire the Russian sniper rifle Dragunov. It is EXTRMELEY quiet. Silenced, all the shooter hears is the bolt moving and ejecting the casings. Standing to the side, there is no crack of the round breaking the sound barrier even though it can use the same ammo as the standard Russian assault rifle (then the AK-47, though they were transitioning to the AK-74 with a 5.45mm round). I later found out that though it can use the same ammo, they actually get a different grain load to keep the round subsonic--though only just. AND it still has a useful range of over 800 yards!
Rover, wasn't trying to be a jerk, just wanted all the info available to anyone that wants it.
BTW, when I was in Bosnia, I was stationed with the Russian liaison team and got a chance to fire the Russian sniper rifle Dragunov. It is EXTRMELEY quiet. Silenced, all the shooter hears is the bolt moving and ejecting the casings. Standing to the side, there is no crack of the round breaking the sound barrier even though it can use the same ammo as the standard Russian assault rifle (then the AK-47, though they were transitioning to the AK-74 with a 5.45mm round). I later found out that though it can use the same ammo, they actually get a different grain load to keep the round subsonic--though only just. AND it still has a useful range of over 800 yards!
Tom Schoene
SOC-12
Someone's been feeding you a line. The Dragunov fires the old 7.62x54 Russian semi-rimmed cartidge, the AK-47 fires the 7.62x39 Soviet rimless cartidge. These are in no way compatible rounds.
lightsenshi
SOC-12
Someone's been feeding you a line. The Dragunov fires the old 7.62x54 Russian semi-rimmed cartidge, the AK-47 fires the 7.62x39 Soviet rimless cartidge. These are in no way compatible rounds. </font>[/QUOTE]*cough*conversion kit*cough*
LOL, I don't know what was going on then. I don't speak russian, but one of the Russian translators gave me that info. I don't see any reason for them to lie, but one never knows. There was still a bit of the old wariness when it came to info exchanges...or maybe they wanted to mess with me. It is a sweet rifle though. Extremely light and quiet.
matrix cypher
SOC-12
Someone's been feeding you a line. The Dragunov fires the old 7.62x54 Russian semi-rimmed cartidge, the AK-47 fires the 7.62x39 Soviet rimless cartidge. These are in no way compatible rounds. </font>[/QUOTE]*cough*conversion kit*cough* </font>[/QUOTE]I own a Dragonov.
Ive Done some serching too.A *cough cough* conversion kit is not what was used. the round is the full sized with less powder.
The Dragonov (or Dragunov) is an ok rifle that was originally designed to be massed out by the soviets to give to their "marksmen", not solely as a sniper rifle. Built for abuse, had several "custom loads", good for 600- yards over iron sites and 1000(+?) with a scope, it cannot compare to a M21,M25, or a PSG-1. I've never seen one with a silencer, but perhaps I was occupied at the time Wow, starting to sound a little like my old self....sorry
Wow, starting to sound a little like my old self....sorry
The Dragunov SVD was only manufactured in 7.62 x 54R. There are three main variants: the original 1963 model, the later issue models with plastic furniture and the SVDS which had a folding stock.
The weapon itself was nothing special (but it looks cool ) and it was designed to accurately engage targets up to 500 meters, although a good shot would no doubt be able to better that. As pointed out, it is does not compare to Western sniper rifles but then again it costs significantly less and is issued en masse to Soviet block troops (by comparison to Western armies).
As for subsonic shots, there is no doubt that it is fairly easy to make your own subsonic rounds and indeed certain branches of the Soviet military would have that requirement but it was not, as far as I am aware, a standard issue round.
The weapon itself was nothing special (but it looks cool
) and it was designed to accurately engage targets up to 500 meters, although a good shot would no doubt be able to better that. As pointed out, it is does not compare to Western sniper rifles but then again it costs significantly less and is issued en masse to Soviet block troops (by comparison to Western armies).As for subsonic shots, there is no doubt that it is fairly easy to make your own subsonic rounds and indeed certain branches of the Soviet military would have that requirement but it was not, as far as I am aware, a standard issue round.
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