MGT Only: Shooting a gun with laser sights? MgT2e+

[Spinward Scout]

Have you ever shot a gun, or even a crossbow, with a laser sight in real life?

Is there any real "aim" to it? Or are you just looking for a red dot?

I would think that "red dot" would override any aiming you did. It does the aiming for you.

Then, someone with no training can shoot it.

So, should a laser sight give you a +6 or a +10 to your Gun Combat task roll?

 

[Badenov]

Have you ever shot a gun, or even a crossbow, with a laser sight in real life?

Is there any real "aim" to it? Or are you just looking for a red dot?

I would think that "red dot" would override any aiming you did. It does the aiming for you.

Then, someone with no training can shoot it.

So, should a laser sight give you a +6 or a +10 to your Gun Combat task roll?

So, I have not used a laser sight in RL, but I have done target shooting and paintball combat, so there's a couple things to consider. The smallest one is bullet drop. This doesn't matter much at close range, but the farther away you are, the more the round will drop. Depending on your engagement range, the wind can also move your round enough to push it off-target. This is why serious marksman sights are very adjustible.

Another issue is how steady your firing position is and if you have good technique. You can have a shot lined up perfectly, but if you pull the trigger the wrong way, you can push or pull the gun out of alignment as you fire. This is a thing that takes training and practice to resolve, and works best if you have a gun sized correctly for your hand, and a heavy trigger pull complicates it.

The larger issue, though, is target movement. Unless your target is stationary, you need to predict where they will be when the round arrives at the target. Leading the target is a bit complicated because it depends on range, the speed of your target, and the speed of the bullet. This is, I feel, a lot of what your skill in firearms encompases. Hitting a stationary target is not hard, even with iron sights. But knowing which way a person under fire will move, and how quickly, and the ability to make the shot when that happens, is a very complex ballet of circumstances, and probably forms a large part of higher Gun Combat skill levels.

 

[King Midas]

Have you ever shot a gun, or even a crossbow, with a laser sight in real life?

I've never used a laser sight to shoot something, but I imagine it would do much. Might blind the crossbowman or gunner, but that's about it.
Oh? Never mind.
Mainly what Boris said.
From my classes in geodetic surveying four decades ago, IIRC air refraction is tiny over the distances we are talking about - like an inch per twelve miles (please look that up, remember four decades). That raises an interesting question about non Terran atmospheres, though.
Also, at the same time, I was supposed to know something about AR-15s. IIRC there is actually a bullet rise at two to three hundred meters range. Four centimeters? Maybe?

 

[Badenov]

I've never used a laser sight to shoot something, but I imagine it would do much. Might blind the crossbowman or gunner, but that's about it.
Oh? Never mind.
Mainly what Boris said.
From my classes in geodetic surveying four decades ago, IIRC air refraction is tiny over the distances we are talking about - like an inch per twelve miles (please look that up, remember four decades). That raises an interesting question about non Terran atmospheres, though.
Also, at the same time, I was supposed to know something about AR-15s. IIRC there is actually a bullet rise at two to three hundred meters range. Four centimeters? Maybe?

Yes, if rifle sights are zeroed at 500 yards, as is common, the round will hit high on a target partway there, because zeroing a sight includes accounting for the drop over that range, and so it includes aiming a bit high to compensate for it. So, partway there, it will not have dropped as far as it would in the full 500 yards.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Range Modifiers should cover distance as an abstract. But I didn't think about the laser being precise over longer distances, like King Midas said.

So, the laser would then give a bonus to Range, and a Hit bonus for Aiming.

And as Badenov said, there should be a negative Movement Modifier, just for Gun Combat alone. I wonder if you can just use a Bane on the Task for that?

Does anyone know if there's anything in a book about a laser sight.

 

[Badenov]

Range Modifiers should cover distance as an abstract. But I didn't think about the laser being precise over longer distances, like King Midas said.

So, the laser would then give a bonus to Range, and a Hit bonus for Aiming.

And as Badenov said, there should be a negative Movement Modifier, just for Gun Combat alone. I wonder if you can just use a Bane on the Task for that?

Does anyone know if there's anything in a book about a laser sight.

MgT1 Central Supply Catalogue has:

Laser Sight (TL 8): A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons.
It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it
grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls. Cr. 200, negligible weight. At TL
10, the use of more advanced optics eliminates the beam-and-dot
signature of the basic laser, at no increase in cost.

I actually question whether a magnifying scope can make this useful at greater than short range?

 

[kilemall]

Consider using advanced steerable bullets that home in on where the laser is aimed. Like laser homing bombs or missiles guided by a forward observer.

I call it the SALH feature for semi active laser homing.

All sorts of nasty counters including lasers that misdirect the bullet requiring encrypted lasers the bullet knows is the legit one. Or, bullets fired to follow the beam back to the shooter.

 

[Condottiere]

Does a gravity field curve a laser?

I suppose, over a sufficient distance.

 

[Badenov]

Does a gravity field curve a laser?

I suppose, over a sufficient distance.

It does, but it's suuuuper tiny except at relativistic speed.

 

[Rupert]

Yes, if rifle sights are zeroed at 500 yards, as is common, the round will hit high on a target partway there, because zeroing a sight includes accounting for the drop over that range, and so it includes aiming a bit high to compensate for it. So, partway there, it will not have dropped as far as it would in the full 500 yards.

Unless you're target shooting at 500 yards, zeroing your sights for 500 yards is pointless, even silly.

Find out what the 'point blank' range for the combination your rifle, load, and intended game is, and zero to get that (and for most rifles it's going to be well under 300 yards). Or, if you're shooting in close country, zero for the maximum expected range, and learn how much 'jump' you'll have at various ranges shorter than this.

As for laser sights, like the more modern 'red dot' sights, they make aiming easier, but do not eliminate the necessity. Laser sights have the advantage that you do not need to line the weapon up with your eye, so in a game you could allow aimed shots in situations where they'd normally be impractical due to stance, having to hold the weapon oddly to shoot round a corner, etc. (but this would probably also attract a penalty because such positions wouldn't steady the weapon properly).

 

[Badenov]

Unless you're target shooting at 500 yards, zeroing your sights for 500 yards is pointless, even silly.

Well, yes. This normally happens when you forget where your sights were zeroed at, or when you have to take a shot in a hurry and don't have time to re-zero them.

Find out what the 'point blank' range for the combination your rifle, load, and intended game is, and zero to get that (and for most rifles it's going to be well under 300 yards). Or, if you're shooting in close country, zero for the maximum expected range, and learn how much 'jump' you'll have at various ranges shorter than this.

Learning how much jump at shorter ranges and using this knowlegde wnen people are shooting at you are the mark of high skill.

As for laser sights, like the more modern 'red dot' sights, they make aiming easier, but do not eliminate the necessity. Laser sights have the advantage that you do not need to line the weapon up with your eye, so in a game you could allow aimed shots in situations where they'd normally be impractical due to stance, having to hold the weapon oddly to shoot round a corner, etc. (but this would probably also attract a penalty because such positions wouldn't steady the weapon properly).

Yes.

 

[Rupert]

Learning how much jump at shorter ranges and using this knowlegde wnen people are shooting at you are the mark of high skill.

Hence the idea of 'point-blank' - the range to which when the sights are adjusted correctly, the bullet's highest and lowest points are within a certain range. The range is set depending on what you intend to shoot - for varmints and the like it's usually 2.5" above and below the sight line. For larger game (including people) it's usually 5" or 6". When a rifle is so sighted in you can just aim and not worry about adjusting for range because the bullet will be within a margin that's 'close enough'. The 'battle range' on many older military rifles' sights was this setting.

 

[Condottiere]

Laser pointer is fifty metres.

Find something with a close or effective range of fifty metres.

Stockless, go for close range twenty five metres.

 

[whartung]

The modern laser site has moved over for the red dot site.

The red dot site presents the laser dot on a glass screen in the reticle of the site for the shooter. The dot tracks the facing of the gun, much like how a laser site works, but it doesn't project anything.

Fundamentally, put the dot on the target, and pull the trigger. It's simpler than normal iron sights as you don't have to line them up, and it compensates if the gun is not quite held properly.

Advantages over a laser site are that it doesn't project (so, no tracing beams through smoke, no need to actually see the dot on the target), the dot is the same size regardless of range. It important to note that most dot are rated in "MOA", as in a "2 MOA" dot, saying the the dots diameter covers 2 Minutes of Accuracy. Essentially it mean that the dot represent 2" and 100 yards.

Neither generic laser or dot sites compensate for range or conditions. The red dot sites tend to be parallax free, and easy to use with both eyes open, in contrast to even low power scopes.

The new rifle scope on the new US rifles (the M7) does have a laser, I think it has a red dot as well. It also has a ballistic computer. The laser (I think) is not used so much for siting as simply point. "See where my dot is? Attack that" kind of thing. It's also has visible and infrared (so you can point at things that your night visioned buddies can see). The laser is also used for range finding to feed the ballistic computer so when you put the 'dot' on a target 500m away, it's compensating for bullet drop and it also has environmental sensors that it can adapt for as well (I have no idea if it can do anything about wind, however).

Pretty neat piece of kit. Hopefully it will actually work in the field, they're still working on that part.

 

[kilemall]

The modern laser site has moved over for the red dot site.

The red dot site presents the laser dot on a glass screen in the reticle of the site for the shooter. The dot tracks the facing of the gun, much like how a laser site works, but it doesn't project anything.

Fundamentally, put the dot on the target, and pull the trigger. It's simpler than normal iron sights as you don't have to line them up, and it compensates if the gun is not quite held properly.

Advantages over a laser site are that it doesn't project (so, no tracing beams through smoke, no need to actually see the dot on the target), the dot is the same size regardless of range. It important to note that most dot are rated in "MOA", as in a "2 MOA" dot, saying the the dots diameter covers 2 Minutes of Accuracy. Essentially it mean that the dot represent 2" and 100 yards.

Neither generic laser or dot sites compensate for range or conditions. The red dot sites tend to be parallax free, and easy to use with both eyes open, in contrast to even low power scopes.

The new rifle scope on the new US rifles (the M7) does have a laser, I think it has a red dot as well. It also has a ballistic computer. The laser (I think) is not used so much for siting as simply point. "See where my dot is? Attack that" kind of thing. It's also has visible and infrared (so you can point at things that your night visioned buddies can see). The laser is also used for range finding to feed the ballistic computer so when you put the 'dot' on a target 500m away, it's compensating for bullet drop and it also has environmental sensors that it can adapt for as well (I have no idea if it can do anything about wind, however).

Pretty neat piece of kit. Hopefully it will actually work in the field, they're still working on that part.

Videos I’ve seen on the sight mentions a wind component.

 

[Diveguy]

Experience with laser sights as well as a number of other elements being discussed. Whartung hit one important point, in that the modern "Red Dot" holographic sight has pretty much eclipsed everything else.

A few other comments, in no particular order:

- No, in most cases, laser sights do not replace the need for conventional aiming - and thinking otherwise leads to frequent missed shots. CAVEAT - they *do* have a value in extremely close-quarters (bad breath range) shooting, particularly from compromised positions, where just seeing the dot on the opposing body is enough to get rounds downrange - because you don't have time/space/ability to use sights.

- Visible laser sights/dots can be a great attention getter on someone. Particularly if there are multiple floating on their vital areas - it gets the point across quick that things are about to go sideways.

- Infrared lasers are fantastic under night vision etc for designating targets, quick acquisition in compromised situations, etc.

- Typically (though there are debates around this, which can take up pages of people yelling past each other) modern infantry rifles are sighted in at 50m, 25m, or in rare cases 100m (often depending on the round and service/unit doctrine). As others have said, this means that for typical engagement ranges the user really doesn't have to compensate much - go for the appropriate center mass point of aim and the round should impact +/- a couple of inches at worse. Interesting, and surprising for many people, this is actually more of a problem at close ranges - where you have to account for the height of your sight over the height of the weapon bore. For example, for a central nervous system (eye box) shot @ about 7 yards with my M4, I would want my dot in the upper forehead. Sure, most of the time it doesn't matter - until you're doing a hostage rescue shot where it does.

- Note I am VASTLY simplifying this for sake of game discussion. And, I'm discussing average use cases, not specialized users or situations. These techniques are how you would approach it for your typical troops/responders. On the other hand, snipers will have dedicated hours to figuring out how the particular round they use performs at each distance increment, what that means in terms of holdover/sight adjustments, how wind/humidity/altitude impact these, and so on. Or, for any user, understanding what changes if you add a sound suppressor (silencer), or use a different ammo load, or whatever.

 

[Commander Truestar]

So, one thing this conversation is making clear is that few or none of us have trained as a sniper.
As mentioned before, this issue scales with the range of the target to be engaged. The closer the target, the less some factors need to be considered. Here is a brief list from my experience.

Someone above mentioned "wind" in passing.
That can be a significant factor, so a sniper will never fixate on a dot...
(Not to mention that xray non-vis-light Las-designators have dominated serious work so you are not handing your target a warning)
Wind is a variable which, especially in high gusts, can move the strike point. Due to that, a sniper must be patient when choosing an aim point
(Note: the Aim point is an "intent" where the "strike point" is where the round actually impacts the target.

Added to the wind, you also have to consider factors like "Air Pressure" and any possible "mirage effect" due to Air heat.

Where "bullet drop" was mentioned, this is a formulaic consideration of "Range to target", "muzzle velocity", "bullet weight/drag coefficient", and "barrel twist rate"(which does add a stability factor but also increases drag - which provides its own function in foreshortening range).

Add to that factors like the "firing angle". Shooting up or down a hill means altering your aim point
For especially long distances, you also need to consider the Coriolis effect as the Earth spins. (Generally over 1093 yards
The curvature of the Earth also has to be considered when choosing an aim point

As for factors like "breathing" and "body positioning", these cross every class of fire arms use. Through use of breathing techniques, a sniper can lower factors like "heartbeat-induced wobble".

Add all that to factors like down-range obstructions, cover and other factors, multiplying the difficulty thanks to the intended target's movement.
Especially where such movement can be predicted?

As said, the shorter the range, the less some of these considerations impact the trigger-pull.
Of course, the closer the target is to the hide, the more problems multiply
The less time a sniper may have to commit to the shot
And the less time the sniper might have to get the duck out of fodge...

 

[Spinward Scout]

MgT1 Central Supply Catalogue has:

Laser Sight (TL 8): A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons. It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls. Cr. 200, negligible weight. At TL 10, the use of more advanced optics eliminates the beam-and-dot signature of the basic laser, at no increase in cost.

I don't get why it's only a +1 DM when it virtually eliminates Aiming. I guess you can add in the Aiming bonus, too. It just isn't logical, to me.

But thanks.

 

[kilemall]

MgT1 Central Supply Catalogue has:

Laser Sight (TL 8): A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons.
It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it
grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls. Cr. 200, negligible weight. At TL
10, the use of more advanced optics eliminates the beam-and-dot
signature of the basic laser, at no increase in cost.

I actually question whether a magnifying scope can make this useful at greater than short range?

Might want the opinions of snipers that make multi km shots.

https://share.google/aimode/a9Mj4ALWepkQ6Clin

 

[Badenov]

Might want the opinions of snipers that make multi km shots.

https://share.google/aimode/a9Mj4ALWepkQ6Clin

I'm not judging the merit of the device. The question was is there anything in published material, and I copy-pasted what I found.