Ship operations

[Hal]

Hi guys,
Got a question for you all.

Lets say for the sake of argument, you're assigned to a T type Patrol cruiser. For sake of argument here, lets use the CT version of the ship and crew compliment rather than any other game system.

Pilot, navigator, 3 engineers, medic, four gunners, 8 troops.

Now, lets assign this Type T patrol cruiser to the "Subsector Navy". It is tasked with patrolling the system, anti-piracy, customs inspection, you name it. The world in question is a TL 6 world with a decent population rating - so it does get traffic on a regular basis.

Now here is the rub. You're the commanding officer. Where do you station your ship? What kinds of shifts do you maintain? How do you maintain a round the clock bridge watch? What about R&R? What do you do about sickness such that a crew member is on sick duty? Then comes the next dreaded issue - maintenance. Once every 52 weeks, your ship is required to spend 2 weeks in maintenance. Lets assume that your ship is required to spend only 2 weeks in transit to the nearest port capable of doing refits and/or maintenance. That's two weeks out, two weeks back.

Last but not least - what do you do for personnel rotations? If each member aboard your ship has signed on for a term of 4 years, presumably, not everyone is going to have the same separation from service date. How do you plan for this.

Clearly, the Subsector Navy is going to have to plan for much of the time spent in transit to and from the duty station to the port for refit/refurbishing/maintenance. Clearly, the Subsector navy will be responsible for picking up and dropping off personnel during the separation from service aspects of various personnel.

Does anyone have ideas, thoughts on this?

 

[flykiller]

the crew rules are insufficient. captain, XO, two pilots, two navigators, chief engineer, chief gunnery officer, chief sensor officer, and ship's medic minimum for every crew. larger vessels will include another pilot or two, another navigator or two, an ops officer, a flight officer, and a MAA (who will be in charge of ship's troops, but not marines). other crew are added as per book rules, plus ten percent.

 

[veltyen]

A full watch can be of 2,3 or 4 watches depending on how they are split. With a crew of that size I would be tending towards a 2*10hour cycle with a bridge officer (pilot/navigator/medic) and an engineer always on duty. This allows a spare for the tricky situations that you point out.

Of course you could have a duplicate crew manning a ground station, allowing you to swap over either partially or fully the crew on a regular basis, four weeks on, four weeks off for example.

As for maintenance a lot of the time the marines and gunners are going to be bored. Very bored. Stunningy bored. At a pinch you could try to do maintenance in place to lengthen out the time between full services, perhaps doing a partial service locally every second year and the fully certified service alternatively.

As for supply the first thought that comes to mind is resupply runs. Personel and supplies are transported to the planet and the Patrol Cruiser drops by on a regular basis to resupply and rotate. The service routine is minor compared to the 4 week carried supply and fuel limit on the Patrol vessel. Admittedly if the vessel wasn't jumping on a regular basis the additional fuel space liberated would allow a much longer stamina of the vessel.

Of course, if it isn't jumping regularily why isn't the role filled by an equivalent monitor?

Assuming that you don't want the vessel to ground on a regular basis then a lot can be solved by having crewsicles. If it is time to muster out you go into the fridge until the normal service rotation time, and spare crew can also be carried this way.

 

[Hal]

Crewing requirements for larger ships - 1,000 dtons and more, would require a more specialized and larger crew. Unfortunately for this discussion, the crew readout is as given.

The GURPS TRAVERLLER T class Cruiser does in fact, have 20 crew members:

Captain, Pilot, sensor/comm operator, navigator, medic, engineer, 2 gig pilots/mechanics, 4 gunners, and 8 security/marine personnel.

The GURPS version will permit you to keep a 24 hour watch in the bridge - but with only 1 engineer - may the Great Ghu help you if your engineer turns up sick! The added two personnel for the gig could and probably should be cross trained in engineering duties. But none the less, the question remains: How would you organize ship operations in the areas depicted in my first post?

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by veltyen:
A full watch can be of 2,3 or 4 watches depending on how they are split. With a crew of that size I would be tending towards a 2*10hour cycle with a bridge officer (pilot/navigator/medic) and an engineer always on duty. This allows a spare for the tricky situations that you point out.

two Ten hour shifts? I'm guessing you mean two twelve hour shifts assuming a Terran Standard time scheme

Originally posted by veltyen:
Of course you could have a duplicate crew manning a ground station, allowing you to swap over either partially or fully the crew on a regular basis, four weeks on, four weeks off for example.

I'm going to have to presume that this is not standard practice for the Imperium. I have to agree with you however, that while CT was written in the late 70's, current practices with the US NAVY advocates just that - shipping in replacement crews while leaving the ship itself on duty station. Interesting idea worth considering for individual Traveller universes

Originally posted by veltyen:
As for maintenance a lot of the time the marines and gunners are going to be bored. Very bored. Stunningy bored. At a pinch you could try to do maintenance in place to lengthen out the time between full services, perhaps doing a partial service locally every second year and the fully certified service alternatively.

As for supply the first thought that comes to mind is resupply runs. Personel and supplies are transported to the planet and the Patrol Cruiser drops by on a regular basis to resupply and rotate. The service routine is minor compared to the 4 week carried supply and fuel limit on the Patrol vessel. Admittedly if the vessel wasn't jumping on a regular basis the additional fuel space liberated would allow a much longer stamina of the vessel.

You know, I keep forgetting about the fuel endurance aspect of CT (I tend to play the GURPS TRAVELLER version). But resupply both of materials, personnel, mail call perhaps, and orders might be the thing to work into the routine of shipboard operations for a Type T patrol cruiser.

Originally posted by veltyen:
Of course, if it isn't jumping regularily why isn't the role filled by an equivalent monitor?

Assuming that you don't want the vessel to ground on a regular basis then a lot can be solved by having crewsicles. If it is time to muster out you go into the fridge until the normal service rotation time, and spare crew can also be carried this way.

Alternating the frozen watches would work. I have to admit however, if I were said crewmember going into low berth for frozen watch, I'd have some serious problems going under. For instance, we go into battle stations, engage an enemy, and are blown to bits. Is this the last breath I'm taking here and now when I enter low berth?

I'm guessing that the Type T cruisers are going to be jumping regularly - so the question becomes one of "how often, and why?" Why does a type T need to jump often? It might need to jump in pursuit of those stupid sentients who think they can try piracy and get away with it. It might be in pursuit of those smugglers and the like. Then again, if things are quiet, why is there a need to jump?

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Hal:
How would you organize ship operations in the areas depicted in my first post?

One way would be to have routine roving patrols sweep the system on a regular basis. Your Type-T would be on-station 4, 6, or 8 weeks and the roving patrol comes through to deliver mail, receive intel and status updates, perform crew transfers and any other routine tasks.
While the patrol is in-system, the cruiser can stand down for shore leave.
Annual overhaul would most likely involve replacing the ship with another, then re-assigning it to a new system after overhaul is complete.

Another way might be to have a naval shore facility somewhere in the local system. This could be as simple as a naval liason office at the starport. The cruiser rotates through on a regular basis and does personnel tasks as above.

Where to patrol and the duration of the patrols depend on a large number of variables. If the cruiser is the only defense the system has I would think you'd have to stay fairly close to the major world. If the ship is a tripwire, serving as an early warning picket, you could position it almost anywhere and your mission would require the ship to remain jump-ready (no using jump fuel to increase patrol time).

Edit: darn posting lag! grrrrr ...

 

[rancke]

Lets say for the sake of argument, you're assigned to a T type Patrol cruiser. For sake of argument here, lets use the CT version of the ship and crew compliment rather than any other game system.

Pilot, navigator, 3 engineers, medic, four gunners, 8 troops.

Now, lets assign this Type T patrol cruiser to the "Subsector Navy". It is tasked with patrolling the system, anti-piracy, customs inspection, you name it. The world in question is a TL 6 world with a decent population rating - so it does get traffic on a regular basis.

Now here is the rub. You're the commanding officer. Where do you station your ship?

If I'm all alone on station, I put my ship at the 100 diameter limit of the mainworld, specifically near the place where most merchants arrive and depart. (I also point out to my superior that if he wants full coverage, he'd better assign some more patrol ships).

What kinds of shifts do you maintain? How do you maintain a round the clock bridge watch?

I follow whatever regulations my navy has laid down for keeping bridge watches. Since my navy put me here, all on my ownsome, presumably they have some apppropriate reuglations for the situation. If I was running that navy and for some reason couldn't assign an extra man to be 2nd Officer, I'd make the chief gunner a watch-standing officer (in small ships senior NCOs are sometime allowed to perform tasks that would be seserved for officers in larger ships). That way the captain (the navigator, I presume), the XO (the pilot), and the chief gunner can stand one watch in three. Or the captain can stand one watch per day and the two others can go watch-and-watch for the rest of the day.

What about R&R? What do you do about sickness such that a crew member is on sick duty?

If my superiors have any interest at all in the performance of my ship then they won't leave me here for more than a couple of months, tops. When people get sick, the rest will have to take up the slack. Unless my navy has had the smarts to set up a small base on the planet I'm protecting.

Then comes the next dreaded issue - maintenance. Once every 52 weeks, your ship is required to spend 2 weeks in maintenance. Lets assume that your ship is required to spend only 2 weeks in transit to the nearest port capable of doing refits and/or maintenance. That's two weeks out, two weeks back.

Another good reason for using a whole squadron to guard the world. The squadron commander can rotate ships home for maintenance. That's how they did it in Nelson's navy.

Last but not least - what do you do for personnel rotations? If each member aboard your ship has signed on for a term of 4 years, presumably, not everyone is going to have the same separation from service date. How do you plan for this.

That's not my problem. That's something my navy's personnel bureau has to deal with. It's yet another good reason to use a whole squadron. With ships rotating back and forth 8 times a year, crew replacements can hitch a ride.

(Actually, if my navy didn't assign the squadron any couriers, the commander will probably rotate ships faster in order to send in his reports.)

Clearly, the Subsector Navy is going to have to plan for much of the time spent in transit to and from the duty station to the port for refit/refurbishing/maintenance. Clearly, the Subsector navy will be responsible for picking up and dropping off personnel during the separation from service aspects of various personnel.

Yes. Do it right. A navy needs about 3 men on the ground for every one aboard a ship. Set up a small base on the world. Assign at least one tender to the system. If you're strapped for ships, have personnel come and go by civilian transport and convey them to and from the ship by the tender (you have to ferry supplies to the ship anyway). Assign at least a half-squadron of patrol ships and assign a 2nd Officer to each of them (If that means someone have to double up then they have to lump it. They should be thankful they're not hot-bunking).


Hans

 

[The Oz]

Don't forget the level of automation inherent in the TRAVELLER universe. Robots of one kind or another can handle a lot of the work we think would need more crew. I could see a single ship like this having a "bridge" robot that would be programmed to handle the ship in routine, non-dangerous situations with the intelligence to call the human crew to the bridge if something out of the ordinary happened. This would be especially true in jump, where nothing is ever supposed to happen and so why waste a human watching bridge screens that had better not ever change. Ditto for engineering once the ship is in jump space.

The Type T has a pinnace aboard, which could be used to bring supplies from the planet, and used for recreation runs ashore, assuming the ship is close enough to the planet.

And I agree with others: if the system has enough traffic there will be more than one ship patrolling, it will be a squadron so that individual ships can be spared for yard time/combat training/shore leave.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

And I agree with others: if the system has enough traffic there will be more than one ship patrolling, it will be a squadron so that individual ships can be spared for yard time/combat training/shore leave.

Let's not forget that if the system has at least one TL9(?) planet, it will produce its own SDBs if the planet has the resources. That will help eleviate some of the stresses of patrol duty. Besides, it will give your crew "locals" to talk to if they cannot get to the surface/base.

 

[Madarin Dude]

As far as engineers and the like go. You need one on duty. but assign a marine or a gunner to be the gofor. Get me a hydrospanner etc. I do agree most of the time the marines and the gunners will be bored so they will end up helping the bridge crew or the engineers in what way they can. They can't fix the jump drive but they can hand over the tools to do that, they can serve as eyes and ears hey tell me when the light turns red. Just my air force maintenence experience talking, use those people like you would a new recruit. You need someone with skills on duty but they can be helped by someone unskilled provided they are not a compleate dumbass.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Marquis Deadlock:
Let's not forget that if the system has at least one TL9(?) planet, it will produce its own SDBs if the planet has the resources. That will help eleviate some of the stresses of patrol duty. Besides, it will give your crew "locals" to talk to if they cannot get to the surface/base.

Hal specified a TL 6 world. A TL 6 world would need a population in the tens of millions[*] to be able to afford to buy and maintain a few SDBs of its own. A TL 6 world with a couple of million people is just the kind of world that would need help from a "Big Brother".

[*] I'm just mentioning a figure off the top of my head here, but I think it's in that ballpark.


Hans

 

[veltyen]

two Ten hour shifts? I'm guessing you mean two twelve hour shifts assuming a Terran Standard time scheme [Wink]

Nope. I did mean in fact a 2*10 configuration. Why stick to a 24 hour cycle in space? US Nuke Subs used to run on a 3*6 hour cycle (checking references it appears that they may still do so). Problems with circadian rythms eventually stopped this practice, it is certainly possible to get arround this with "Mr High Tech"(tm). Considering the crew could come from both long cycle (30+ hour days) and short cycle (18- hour days) colonies keeping an arbritary cycle to match Sol doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by veltyen:
Nope. I did mean in fact a 2*10 configuration. Why stick to a 24 hour cycle in space?

Ever stand watch? Anytime? Anywhere? Ever?

You actually believe a crew can spend ten hours on watch, then spend ten hours off watch doing all those other 'inconsequential' things like working, training, eating, relaxing, sleeping, and then go right back on watch again?

You're suggesting an undending series of ten hour work shifts only separated by other ten hour periods which are also crammed with other neccesary activities.

Try working ten hours each day during your next 5 day work week and tell me how you feel. And you'll have fourteen hours between 'watches' there plus a 48 hour period in which to recover.

You know nothing about watch standing.

US Nuke Subs used to run on a 3*6 hour cycle...

That's THREE section duty, not TWO section duty. Those submariners have TWELVE hours off between each SIX hour watch and let me tell you a guy who stood 6*6 cycles, 5*10 cycles, and 4*8 cycles for years, those twelve hours off are filled with much more than lounging about or sleeping.

Considering the crew could come from both long cycle (30+ hour days) and short cycle (18- hour days) colonies keeping an arbritary cycle to match Sol doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

MT discusses the long Vilani 'day' and how it is broken into different work/rest cycles. Even they don't work then '10 by 10' cycle you suggest.

If you want a watch schedule not linked to the Terran day, try 5*10s. Five hours isn't too taxing, ten hours off is enough time, and the watches dog themselves. My engineroom enjoyed standing them until a more traditional CHENG took over.


Have fun and try standing watches sometime,
Bill

 

[veltyen]

G'day Bill,

I suggest you get some sleep or stop taking whatever you are taking. Having checked your recent posts generally you do not normally act so ...impolitely. Either that or I have done something to mightily piss you off.

From having known both miners (where a 16 hour day is not uncommon) Riggers (where a 12 hour on 12 hour off cycle is (close to)mandatory here) and having personally worked 60+ hour weeks for months at a time the cycle I put forward is not completely unrealistic. In a universe with synthetic ressurection and combat drugs that can do the near unbeleivable, mere rhythm modification should be a breeze.

You are in fact correct. I have never stood a formal watch. That fact does not preclude secondary knowledge and research. As an IT geek (at the present time) standing a formal watch is an unlikely request. Being oncall 24/7 is about as close as I get these days.

 

[Uncle Bob]

19th Century ships only had two watches (Larboard and Starboard) and worked four on and four off.

But they never had just one man standing to the helm 12 hrs a day. They took turns and the night watches were allowed to nap when not actually hauling on the lines. This is the origen of "dog watches" where the late afternoon watch was split in half to give an odd number number of watches so the same guys aren't working at midnight every day.

This is not a concern for us.
4 on and 4 off doesn't really let you sleep.
10 on and 10 off, by the end of a ten hour shift fatigue has got to reduce your effectiveness.

The Engineers can work 6 on 12 off
Bridge crew can work 9 and 9. Bridge shift consists of pilot/navigator and two gunners. One of the gunners sits on the bridge while the officer of the watch does paperwork, tours the ship, takes a crap, etc. They can also help the engineers, do practice gunnery, eat, etc.

 

[flykiller]

I suggest you get some sleep or stop taking whatever you are taking.

you'll have to excuse mr. whipsnade. it is indeed irritating to hear such light talk about such schedules. after reading your suggestion that he get some sleep he may not have a working computer available for a few days.

As an IT geek (at the present time) standing a formal watch is an unlikely request. Being oncall 24/7 is about as close as I get these days.

here's a thought experiment for you. imagine watchstanding 5 on 10 off (five and dimes). not being allowed to sleep during the day (0600 to 2100). AND being on call 24/7. for nine months.

ever hallucinate from exhaustion? I have.

 

[far-trader]

To add a little personal experience to the discussion I once worked construction on a 10 on 14 off for a couple months. None of the crew suffered ill effects or reduced competancy and there were no accidents (despite the other conditions) and we made our deadline for the job. It took me a few nights to get my sleep cycle swung (we were working outside normal work hours so the plant could keep working while we modernized and expanded it), but I was young then Once my sleep cycle was set it was no problem at all.

I've also worked swing shifts of all kinds and they are generally nasty. They should be banned they are just such a stupid idea. Fine for once in a while maybe but no one should have to live that way. That is one thing I'd hope isn't done with watches, in real-life or the game. That 5 on 10 off sounds like a swing shift watch to me, no fun at all.

 

[aramis]

Pilot, navigator, 3 engineers, medic, four gunners, 8 troops.

3 8 hour shifts, rotating. The first half, the previous shift provides relief service and training. The second half, the next shift does.
A Shift:
- Pilot
- Gunners 1&2, 1 gun off-line for maintenance. ! Gnr on bridge, 1 doing maint. OR Gunner 2
- Engineer 1
B Shift: Nav
- Navigator
- Gunner 3
- Engineer 3
C Shift:
- Medic OR Gunner 1
- Gunner 4
- Engineer 3
Marines: 4 hot, 4 down on 12 hour ready shifts. May cross train with gunners, and perfomr guns maint.

Gunner 1 may be training as a CDO. If not, Medic Gets the CDO seat for watch 3.... however, the CO is always called for hostiles.

Alternate:
14 hour workday, 10 hours downtime. Everyone on shift during day. Rotating 2 hours "firewatches" on bridge during down time; rotating through all crew.

It's very possible to get all the marines Engineer-0, Sensors-0, and Commo-0, and probably even pilot-0

This is a case where the normal CG rules really don't account for.
On the 15 hour day, Bill's rant aside, even on watches past 5 hours, there is usually built in time for relief, and/or eating at station. And redundancy. People shift tasks as needed during the day to cover, much as a PBR crew does.

And such a ship would require down time. Down time every few weeks. say, 1 week dirstide per two aboard, assuming they dirtside in system.

Now, my last design of a Type T put a long hall down the neck (SR on the port side for the last 1/2)... during the off shift awake time, everyone is required to run it 3 laps...

Seriously, though, an alternate route, Presuming as much flexibility as Harrington took... 12 on station, plus 1 hour duty either side, and sleep dirtside. (Set the beacon for "Please enter holding orbit and await starport opening at 0645 local. that will bi in...[insert automated number]. Thank-you for your compliance."

 

[aramis]

4 on 8 off is pretty standard, if you take watches the way the US and Crown navies do: 4 hours on task, must have relief to take a p-break.

If, however, you allow for a lot more automation, it's more like the army's CQ and Firewatch duties, or a firestation.

Firefighters work 24 hour shifts. (1 on, 1 off)x4, then 4 days off.

With the high automation, you simply need someone in charge, and then people to do the maintenance, unless you are expected to do the inspections 24/7. It's NOT like Bill's naval time. The navy model is not a good one. Keep in mind also: Pilots routinely do 14:10 schedules in airplanes.

Really, though, the ship needs at least one more.

with a second ship, both doing 14:10, overlapping, you can then take a "Day" off every week for each, by doing a short 10, taking 12 off + 2 hours U/D, then a 10 again. and not leave a gap in coverage.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Aramis, I believe you have Gunner-1 working 24-7.