Shuttle or other for 400 ton Corsair?

[kilemall]

Corsair operators would be high risk/high gain/high connections. Perhaps not the norm, but often enough to be a benefit.

Raiding settlements would rarely yield millions of credit, just tawdry space crime. I could see food and basics as a desirable supply item. Remote mines/asteroids could be worth it.

My view is that small craft would be a lot if not 50% of pirate activity due to the cheaper cost, greater availability, high maneuver G, and lack of dependence on jump maintenance. The mother ship also doesn’t get risked.

 

[Condottiere]

After I got over the Pirate romance, I realized that piracy in Traveller doesn't work, and if it did, they're doing it wrong.

The most interesting thing would be to discover as to who underwrites all those Vargr corsairs?

 

[whartung]

After I got over the Pirate romance, I realized that piracy in Traveller doesn't work, and if it did, they're doing it wrong.

The most interesting thing would be to discover as to who underwrites all those Vargr corsairs?

Well, thankfully, we now have a canonical source of Pirate economy with Book 9.

Any care to summarize its discussion on the Pirate economy? I haven't seen it yet.

(Which is different from the Vargr Corsair economy, that seems to be more of a state thing.)

 

[Spinward Flow]

A quick shot of the antidote solves that problem.

"A quick shot of the antidote" ... while operating under Fast Drug?

The very notion sounds like one of these, as soon as you try and put it into practice ...

Oxymoron
An oxymoron (plurals: oxymorons and oxymora) is a figure of speech that juxtaposes concepts with opposite meanings within a word or in a phrase that is a self-contradiction. As a rhetorical device, an oxymoron illustrates a point to communicate and reveal a paradox.

Looking at LBB2.81, p44 for drugs and their effects ... Slow drug takes 45 seconds after ingestion to take effect, after which the subject is basically living at "double speed" (in effect).

Fast drug makes the user live at a rate of 1 second (subjective) per 1 minute (objective) time. While under the effects of Fast drug, bodily metabolism is slowed down ... so presumably a dose of the antidote will "take a while" to fully propagate through the body of someone under the influence of Fast drug. So instead of taking 45 seconds (objective) to counter Fast Drug (using Slow drug as an inverse expectation), because of the slower metabolic rate of someone under the influence of Fast drug it could take up to 45 minutes (objective) for the antidote to take full effect, which would then be 45 seconds (subjective) time for the user of Fast drug receiving the antidote.



In other words ... even if the Fast drug antidote is administered INSTANTLY (and automatically?) upon an emergency situation, it could take upwards of 30+ minutes (objective) time before anyone under Fast drug is "usefully" starting to drop out of their retarded metabolic rate and perception of the world around them.

The antidote shot might be quick (cue Dr McCoy hypospray sound FX), but it will take the rest of the 45 minute episode airtime before the effects of the Fast drug have been fully neutralized in the patient and they return to 1:1 realtime perception of the world around them.

So administering the antidote might be "quick" ... but dropping out of Fast drug effects and resuming the "normal" flow of time won't be.

 

[Enoki]

or 4.b. Hire a bunch of expendable Mooks, {don't gotta pay'em if they get killed}

Hiring 'meat shields' costs money and increases the possibility of traitors, etc., in their ranks. Not a great idea. About the only time you'd really need them anyway is if you were going to do something high risk like trying to board and take a prize in space. Aside from that if the survivors put out the word that you're likely to die if you hire on with so-and-so, soon you can't anymore meat shields.

Think about this. Pirates want to maximize their profit and minimize their risks. So, they figure out when and where they can catch a fat prize or do some other pirate thing that makes them lots of money while not getting shot in the process. So, you want ferocious, intimidating looking pirates who make lots of noise and scare the hell out of people--a reputation helps too--to avoid actually fighting. Fighting and shooting = bad. Scaring your victims to death and getting the loot without fighting = good.

The best pirates are professionals. They know their business. It's the amateurs that should scare you. They don't know what they're doing, and people end up shot and dead as a result.

 

[Enoki]

And, outside of mutiny and hijacking, getting financing for pirate ships would be unicornian.

There are some spots, generally outside the 3I, where pirates rule a system or systems and can hide out. These places would (I'd think) include such 'businesses' as "chop shops" to part out your latest prize, weapons and ship modification where you can get the lame @$$ed merchant you just "acquired" fitted with more armor and a crapton (technical term) of weapons, fencing operations where you turn loot into cash, that sort of thing.

The local "government" such as it isn't, has a general gentleman's agreement that no pirating in the system is allowed and anybody that starts something there is turned on by everyone else (aka the "All for one, all on one" policy).

It's at such locations where you might find a business that will build you that hot 400-ton corsair you've always dreamed of pirating in, just make sure you have the terms of the deal down and the cash to keep your end of things up.

Two locations where you might find this are:

Federation of Heron - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

Granicus (world) - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

Ral Ranta - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

 

[Rupert]

After I got over the Pirate romance, I realized that piracy in Traveller doesn't work, and if it did, they're doing it wrong.

The most interesting thing would be to discover as to who underwrites all those Vargr corsairs?

The thing is, in the 'golden age of piracy' as we think of it, ships were cheap and cargoes very valuable. In Traveller most cargoes aren't super valuable, and ships are eye-wateringly expensive. Also, back then ships had high operating costs, but in Traveller they don't really (except for mortgages, and pirates won't be paying those).

These things change the incentives for pirates immensely. Most are probably ex-merchants who fell behind on their mortgages and skipped, and most will be trying to capture entire ships, not stop a ship and loot its cargo. But they don't have to rush, because even at a few cents in the credit on a ship they can afford to pay for their operating costs for a good long while, so waiting for a safe target (or one that their port-side agent has set up for them) is perfectly viable.

But then, I don't generally run 'golden age' Traveller, and in the New Era capturing the ships is very definitely the entire point of piracy, be it by other ship crews, vampire ships, or planet-side actors.

 

[Rupert]

The best pirates are professionals. They know their business. It's the amateurs that should scare you. They don't know what they're doing, and people end up shot and dead as a result.

The problem being that most pirates are probably amateurs, or at least are inexperienced at the trade.

 

[Spinward Flow]

where you can get the lame @$$ed merchant you just "acquired"

Which brings up an interesting point.
Piracy of starships will require either a prize crew + working drives ... OR ... a hangar bay/external towing capacity large enough to transport a captured big craft through jump.

The problem with a prize crew is kind of obvious ... loyalty.
Once a prize crew "has" a prize starship, what's to prevent them from jumping somewhere other than where they're supposed to and effectively "pirating" the starship for themselves (from the pirates who captured it in the first place). Kind of hard to crack the whip and enforce discipline onto a different starship while in jump. So all a prize crew needs to do in order to "turn in their resignations" is to jump SOMEWHERE ELSE than where they're supposed to go with their prize. Makes pursuit a bit difficult.

The alternative is a docking capture (either internal or external) and jumping "together" ... but that requires a significant quantity of available displacement (either internal or external) to be able to do that. And if big craft (100+ tons) require 110% of their displacement when accounting as part of another (larger) craft, then even a 100 ton Type-S or Type-J starship is going to require 110 tons of internal hangar/cargo bay or external docking capacity in order to transport the captured starship through jump.

If you scale up your ambitions to being able to prey upon 400 ton starships, such as 1x Fat Trader or 2x Free/Far Traders ... suddenly you're looking at needing corsairs in the 800-1000 ton hull displacement range. At that point you aren't masquerading as a Type-T Patrol Cruiser anymore, you're wanting to camouflage yourself as some sort of Destroyer Escort type vessel (with the firepower to match, encouraging prey to "heave to and prepare to be boarded" (so to speak). Additionally, once you've reached the 1000 ton displacement category you can start doing things like using small craft fighters as your "gunships" to disable targets and then once resistance has ended, use the corsair mothership to "move in for the kill capture" and prepare to jump away with your prize.

 

[Rupert]

The problem with a prize crew is kind of obvious ... loyalty.
Once a prize crew "has" a prize starship, what's to prevent them from jumping somewhere other than where they're supposed to and effectively "pirating" the starship for themselves (from the pirates who captured it in the first place). Kind of hard to crack the whip and enforce discipline onto a different starship while in jump. So all a prize crew needs to do in order to "turn in their resignations" is to jump SOMEWHERE ELSE than where they're supposed to go with their prize. Makes pursuit a bit difficult.

That would depend on pirate culture, and its presence or lack. If pirates have a sort of common culture, and work out of a relatively fixed set of bases, skipping with the prize is likely to have repercussions, because it's most likely against established norms, and the original ship's remaining crew's claim on the captured ship would be recognised. Hard to function as a pirate if you can't use pirate system facilities, can't trade, can't on-sell your captures, etc.

On the other hand, if pirates are all independents, hiding from and running from the IN inside the Imperium, etc., then skipping out on your previous boss and their ship is entirely doable.

 

[Enoki]

The thing is, in the 'golden age of piracy' as we think of it, ships were cheap and cargoes very valuable. In Traveller most cargoes aren't super valuable, and ships are eye-wateringly expensive. Also, back then ships had high operating costs, but in Traveller they don't really (except for mortgages, and pirates won't be paying those).

These things change the incentives for pirates immensely. Most are probably ex-merchants who fell behind on their mortgages and skipped, and most will be trying to capture entire ships, not stop a ship and loot its cargo. But they don't have to rush, because even at a few cents in the credit on a ship they can afford to pay for their operating costs for a good long while, so waiting for a safe target (or one that their port-side agent has set up for them) is perfectly viable.

But then, I don't generally run 'golden age' Traveller, and in the New Era capturing the ships is very definitely the entire point of piracy, be it by other ship crews, vampire ships, or planet-side actors.

The alternative to that is essentially "Space Vikings." I do the Ral Ranta that way. Their culture is clannish and geared towards doing things like piracy. The clannish / gang nature of their operations means that a prize crew is not going to cut and run with the prize because the consequences would be immediate and horrible. The crew's family, associates, etc., would be at risk of reprisal. The rest of the clan / gang would put a bounty (internally) on them.

So, a Ral Ranta clan / gang has high loyalty, and everyone knows everyone else in the clan. This also means they can, and do, operate not as an individual ship but in a small fleet. Their tactics would be:

Send in an innocuous ship of one sort or another to scout the target system and identify the targets to be hit and defenses to avoid. When the fleet arrives, it's a combination of smallish ships for space combat and indirect fire support coupled with several more carrying troops for a ground raid. They hit say a town with a small airfield / spaceport (not THE spaceport possibly), rob the local bank, and businesses, along with take several space capable boats and all the grav vehicles they can lay their hands on.

Then they load all of that up and get the hell out of Dodge before the law or military can arrive.

 

[kilemall]

If ships are the prize, one has to expect damaged/destroyed jump and maneuver drives and so tow/jump tug capacity.

 

[kilemall]

That would depend on pirate culture, and its presence or lack. If pirates have a sort of common culture, and work out of a relatively fixed set of bases, skipping with the prize is likely to have repercussions, because it's most likely against established norms, and the original ship's remaining crew's claim on the captured ship would be recognised. Hard to function as a pirate if you can't use pirate system facilities, can't trade, can't on-sell your captures, etc.

On the other hand, if pirates are all independents, hiding from and running from the IN inside the Imperium, etc., then skipping out on your previous boss and their ship is entirely doable.

The historical sail pirates had loyalty issues with captured ships. Reputation would be the deciding factor- demonstrated success in keeping the profitable voyages coming and dire consequences if ever caught double crossing.

 

[Condottiere]

1. We've always had piracy.

2. The reasons could be economic, or commerce raiding.

3. Widespread piracy requires State toleration.

4. Possibly, some form of taxation on the booty.

5. But, piracy gets suppressed, if not wiped out, when a maritime empire starts to project power.

6. To a certain extent, there's a difference between piracy, vikinging, privateering, and corsairing.

7. You could say, private enterprise, community project, government warrant, and state sponsored.

8. Vargr corsair implies state sponsorship.

9. But what right thinking Vargr trusts another ambitious Vargr with his property, that is inherently mobile and uncontrollable?

 

[Spinward Flow]

If ships are the prize, one has to expect damaged/destroyed jump and maneuver drives and so tow/jump tug capacity.

Exactly my point.
Which means that for the "minnows" of the merchant fleets, you're looking at needing to accommodate 100 ton, 200 ton or 400 ton starships as prey/capture targets. At which point you're going to need "capacity" (either internal or external) to "move the loot" (of starship hull) once you've captured it. That in turn means that you need to have either 110 tons, 220 tons or 440 tons of "loading capacity" available in order to pull off such a(n interstellar jump) maneuver.

If you can't do that ... your piracy is going to be STRICTLY LOCAL ... which has "getaway with it" implications, particularly if you're only able to "lug your prizes away" on maneuver drive ...

It might work a FEW times, but you won't be able to repeat the stunt enough times without moving your "base" of operations ... or being given support by third parties. Maneuver only piracy IS possible (of course), but the longevity of such a "business venture" has NO guarantees attached to it. Get too predictable with maneuver only piracy and ... that's it ... you're done.

 

[Rupert]

9. But what right thinking Vargr trusts another ambitious Vargr with his property, that is inherently mobile and uncontrollable?

But if you don't, you show that you lack confidence in your charisma and leadership skills, and that kills your charisma. So you need to show that you do trust your subordinates, but without trusting them too much...

A balance obviously can be found, because at least one Vargr state covered about a sector and lasted centuries (though I bet it's government didn't). By Traveller standards that's not much. By the standards of our history it's a major and long-lasting state.

 

[Rupert]

Exactly my point.
Which means that for the "minnows" of the merchant fleets, you're looking at needing to accommodate 100 ton, 200 ton or 400 ton starships as prey/capture targets. At which point you're going to need "capacity" (either internal or external) to "move the loot" (of starship hull) once you've captured it. That in turn means that you need to have either 110 tons, 220 tons or 440 tons of "loading capacity" available in order to pull off such a(n interstellar jump) maneuver.

If you can't do that ... your piracy is going to be STRICTLY LOCAL ... which has "getaway with it" implications, particularly if you're only able to "lug your prizes away" on maneuver drive ...

Or you make it very clear to the target that if they don't pull over and you 'have' to shoot them, if the ship can't jump afterwards the crew all die. It helps if you have a reputation for 1) doing just that, and 2) not killing the crews if they comply.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Or you make it very clear to the target that if they don't pull over and you 'have' to shoot them, if the ship can't jump afterwards the crew all die. It helps if you have a reputation for 1) doing just that, and 2) not killing the crews if they comply.

"Your reputation precedes you, Mr. ... ..."

 

[Enoki]

1. We've always had piracy.

2. The reasons could be economic, or commerce raiding.

3. Widespread piracy requires State toleration.

4. Possibly, some form of taxation on the booty.

5. But, piracy gets suppressed, if not wiped out, when a maritime empire starts to project power.

6. To a certain extent, there's a difference between piracy, vikinging, privateering, and corsairing.

7. You could say, private enterprise, community project, government warrant, and state sponsored.

8. Vargr corsair implies state sponsorship.

9. But what right thinking Vargr trusts another ambitious Vargr with his property, that is inherently mobile and uncontrollable?

Exactly.

"State sponsored" is either Viking or privateering with a letter or marque. The former is the pirate crew is from a system that tolerates or even encourages private enterprise piracy. The latter is from a system that gives individuals government sanction to go after "enemy" vessels and property.

Outright pirates are simply criminals looking to make money doing crimes. This could include mercenaries or thugs who are hired for a particular crime as a one-time thing.

The Viking variety give some portion of their loot to the government but keep most of it themselves. With the Ral Ranta (I mentioned earlier), since each system is run by a particular clan or gang the government and the "Vikings" are one in the same. That is, in game terms, they are a type 1 or 3 government or some similar arrangement. They might be a type F too. That is the gang / clan rules with an iron fist over a larger population.

I haven't done much with Vargr so I can't adequately speak to how they'd do things.

So, in coarse terms there are two types of piracy going on here:

Criminal enterprise where a small group of criminals are acting together outside of government for personal gain

and

Organized piracy by groups that are either sanctioned by government or are a government / power unto themselves.

The first group is into immediate gain with no particular long-term goals other than get rich.

The second group is essentially organized crime and intends to not just enrich themselves but make their operations an ongoing thing.

Think of it this way: It's street criminals acting on opportunity versus the mob or mafia acting on making it a multi-generational career.

 

[Condottiere]

Privateering is very specific.

A lot of pirates appear to be privateers that went into private enterprise, and crews somewhat disenchanted with navy life, but with a skill set that's monetizable.

Vikinging appears to be more community based, even if captain might be of higher status.

The Barbary corsairs it was both religiously based, and capitalism; which, to be fair, might not have receded into history.