Semi-pointless Feats in T20

[pftmadness]

Had T20 for only a week. Looks great but it still seems to have incorporated some of the absolute bananas from the core D20 system - i.e. some of the feats.
I mean what is the point of Weapon Focus (+1 to hit with a PARTICULAR gun). Big deal.

Also. Dodge. +1 AC vs one opponent. Whoopee do.
Etc, etc.

It is the same in AD&D (apologies if this is blasphemy on a Traveller site!). Players soon learn not to bother selected them.

What does anyone else think. I just think its a flaw in the D20 system, rather than Traveller but I'd in interested in others thoughts, especiall those who also play D&D.

 

[BigBadRon]

Some of those feats are prerequisites for others. Dodge for instance is required before you can take Mobility which gives a +4 AC bonus vs Attacks of Opportunity.

 

[Jame]

I've never trusted feats that looked like skills (i.e. Dodge - it's a skill, which all can and should learn), although some, like Absolute Direction (for example), which are not learnable, I've always held to be feats. Though come to think of it, I've never held with non-cross-class skills on the basis that any class should be able to learn any skill (though certain classes wouldn't learn certain skills).

 

[pftmadness]

Originally posted by BigBadRon:
Some of those feats are prerequisites for others. Dodge for instance is required before you can take Mobility which gives a +4 AC bonus vs Attacks of Opportunity.

I hear what you are saying, but even these 'higher' feats are not up to it. Course,that's just my opinion. But Weapon Focus followed by Weapon Spec, just to get +1 to hit and +2 damage, with one and only one weapon....
I just do not think that the Feat lists are equal, which means player will always pick the best ones....???

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by pftmadness:

I just do not think that the Feat lists are equal, which means player will always pick the best ones....???

Yes, some feats are more powerful than others. For example, look at Toughness (+3 HP in D&D) vs. one of the Weapons Feats (whole slew of new weapons).

But, whether or not it makes sense for someone to choose a feat depends on the player's style. A power/munchkin gamer will generally do his best to find the feats that give them the most advantages. On other hand, a player who is more heavily oriented towards role playing a particular character concept might choose a feat that makes sense for the character, even if it isn't a particularly powerful feat.

Ron

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by pftmadness:
I hear what you are saying, but even these 'higher' feats are not up to it. Course,that's just my opinion. But Weapon Focus followed by Weapon Spec, just to get +1 to hit and +2 damage, with one and only one weapon....
I just do not think that the Feat lists are equal, which means player will always pick the best ones....???

Yes, but a +2 to damage is a big thing in T20, with Lifeblood being so precious and all. It can make much more of a difference than in D&D where by the time you can get it Fighters have 4d10+ hit points. A pistol doing 1d10+2 instead of 1d10 is more of an issue when you have, say, 14 Lifeblood at *all* levels. Likewise, the +1 to hit is worth more in a low combat game. My players don't usually shy from combat is D20 games - they do in Traveller d20!

Try it out before you change it - then change away if you still don't like it!

I do agree about dodge, and my playing has made me put it at +2. More worthwhile. Then again, I'm still looking for a balanced defense-based over AC-based system.

Shane

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Originally posted by pftmadness:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigBadRon:
Some of those feats are prerequisites for others. Dodge for instance is required before you can take Mobility which gives a +4 AC bonus vs Attacks of Opportunity.

I hear what you are saying, but even these 'higher' feats are not up to it. Course,that's just my opinion. But Weapon Focus followed by Weapon Spec, just to get +1 to hit and +2 damage, with one and only one weapon....
I just do not think that the Feat lists are equal, which means player will always pick the best ones....???</font>[/QUOTE]Well...if one has a fairly low BAB, a +1 to hit might be just the trick. Plus, the +2 damage, if I understand correctly would be two more points to chew through AR. Consider this, if someone rolls a "6" with a weapon doing one dice of damage vrs someone in cloth armor, the armor will asorb all the damage for purposes of lifeblood damage. With the +2 damage, you've now done 2 lifeblood points. Okay, even Joe NPC has a Con of 10 and thus 10 Lifeblood...but at least you've done something to him now up and beyond stamina point damage.

(Then again, if you want to take Joe NPC alive, doing only stamina damage might be more productive then whittling away at his lifeblood points due to a feat giving a damage bonus...but I digress)

 

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
I do agree about dodge, and my playing has made me put it at +2. More worthwhile. Then again, I'm still looking for a balanced defense-based over AC-based system.

Shane

You might take a look at Ken Hood's "Grim-n-Gritty Hit Point and Combat Rules"
from here. I havn't used them yet, but the class-based defense bonus (in lieu of an armor based AC bonus) looks like it will be very useful. The martial arts and psi rules also look nice.

 

[lord irial]

One of my biggest problem feats was Toughness. Three whole hit points, yippee.

When I got and started playing Neverwinter Nights, I notced that Toughness was now +1 hit point per level- this is now the version of the feat I use in my tabletop D&D game.

For T20, I would probably do it as your choice, when you take the feat, of +1 Stamina per level, or +2 Lifeblood points when you take the feat. You can take the feat twice, but only once for each version of the feat.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by lord irial:
One of my biggest problem feats was Toughness. Three whole hit points, yippee.

When I got and started playing Neverwinter Nights, I notced that Toughness was now +1 hit point per level- this is now the version of the feat I use in my tabletop D&D game.

IMO too powerful for a feat but who knows it could be changed in D&D 3.5.

The example from D&D is a 1st level wizard with toughness, really helpful at that stage. A 1d4 with possible - from Con doesn't go that far. T20 version: the Academic that goes to the gym every day after the lectures are done.

As always, YMMV IYTU...

Kevin

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Jame:
I've never trusted feats that looked like skills (i.e. Dodge - it's a skill, which all can and should learn), although some, like Absolute Direction (for example), which are not learnable, I've always held to be feats. Though come to think of it, I've never held with non-cross-class skills on the basis that any class should be able to learn any skill (though certain classes wouldn't learn certain skills).

Which is exactly the situation in D20. Class skills, cross-class skills (which are harder to learn), and exclusive skills (which can be impossible to learn). There really aren't that many exclusive skills and IMO are part of class balance.

One of my grips with D&D and to a slightly lesser extent, D20, is that it can be hard to house rule w/out really messing with game balance. The trend in the design for D&D3rd was away from any house rules which has hampered IMO the stated goal of deviations from D&D for D20/OGL games.

When that +1 in a dodge saves you from getting hit it comes in very handy, esp. for the sneaky types who don't wear hardly any armor. Added with modility you can get a +5 against one opponent each turn. Spring Attack can be useful as well. D20 Modern also has Agile Riposte built upon Dodge where you get to make an AoO after an opponent fails a melee attack against you.

Comes down to what type of character you are going for. One thing I wish T20 had is a better listing of the feats, ala D&D 3rd or D20 Modern, grouping the feats instead of a A-Z listing.

If you want more Feats to choose from, last time I was at my FLGS the employee showed me a new book with nothing but feats*. Had to be over 100 pages and hardcover as well. Almost any D20 product has new feats. There has to be some netbooks of feats out there as well.

Casey

*IMO the last thing I need is more D20 base classes, PrClasses, feats, skills...and I thought Gurps was bad with skill creep! Though I don't mind extra races/monsters.

 

[trancejeremy]

Originally posted by lord irial:
One of my biggest problem feats was Toughness. Three whole hit points, yippee.

When I got and started playing Neverwinter Nights, I notced that Toughness was now +1 hit point per level- this is now the version of the feat I use in my tabletop D&D game.

Well, the +3 hp version of toughness is actually quite useful in D&D if you happen to be a wizard or sorcerer and are 1st level. It almost doubles your hit points.

Not so useful for him would be the NWN version, at least not initially. That would only be 1 extra hp at first level.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Originally posted by trancejeremy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lord irial:
One of my biggest problem feats was Toughness. Three whole hit points, yippee.

When I got and started playing Neverwinter Nights, I notced that Toughness was now +1 hit point per level- this is now the version of the feat I use in my tabletop D&D game.

Well, the +3 hp version of toughness is actually quite useful in D&D if you happen to be a wizard or sorcerer and are 1st level. It almost doubles your hit points.

Not so useful for him would be the NWN version, at least not initially. That would only be 1 extra hp at first level.</font>[/QUOTE]True, but how long are you just first level in NWN? Okay, that version used in a p&p game is more of a long term then a short term feat, but in NWN, one is 1st level for...maybe a few minutes, considering one gains three levels just for going through the tutorial "dungeon", if memory serves.

 

[Ellros]

Originally posted by Casey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lord irial:
One of my biggest problem feats was Toughness. Three whole hit points, yippee.

When I got and started playing Neverwinter Nights, I notced that Toughness was now +1 hit point per level- this is now the version of the feat I use in my tabletop D&D game.

IMO too powerful for a feat but who knows it could be changed in D&D 3.5.

The example from D&D is a 1st level wizard with toughness, really helpful at that stage. A 1d4 with possible - from Con doesn't go that far. T20 version: the Academic that goes to the gym every day after the lectures are done.

As always, YMMV IYTU...

Kevin</font>[/QUOTE]I changed Toughness in my D&D campaign, to allow a character to roll an additional hit die plus CON mod (for the class they just went up in).
For T20, I am allowing the hit die roll (again, for the class the just went up in). The full amount is added to Stamina, and half that amount is added to Lifeblood.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Ellros:
]I changed Toughness in my D&D campaign, to allow a character to roll an additional hit die plus CON mod (for the class they just went up in).
For T20, I am allowing the hit die roll (again, for the class the just went up in). The full amount is added to Stamina, and half that amount is added to Lifeblood.

Well I've not played T20 yet so this may be a good suggestion.

Oh an dodge (and mobility) are needed for Shot on the Run, which allows you to move, shot, and scoot.

Should come in very handy for my horse archer ex-Barbarian.

Finally, the feats book I was thinking of Ultimate Feats by Moongoose Publishing. 256 pages and $34.95. Evidently over a 1000 feats* and guidelines on creating new ones.
Publisher's Website for the book
Reviews of Ultimate Feats at Enworld

*So there should be some useful in a sci-fi game. And since the netbook of feats is in this book and free you might want to check it out first.

Netbook of Feats

Casey

 

[worj]

Originally posted by pftmadness:
Had T20 for only a week. Looks great but it still seems to have incorporated some of the absolute bananas from the core D20 system - i.e. some of the feats.
I mean what is the point of Weapon Focus (+1 to hit with a PARTICULAR gun). Big deal.

Also. Dodge. +1 AC vs one opponent. Whoopee do.
Etc, etc.

It is the same in AD&D (apologies if this is blasphemy on a Traveller site!). Players soon learn not to bother selected them.

What does anyone else think. I just think its a flaw in the D20 system, rather than Traveller but I'd in interested in others thoughts, especiall those who also play D&D.

 

[worj]

Originally posted by pftmadness:
Had T20 for only a week. Looks great but it still seems to have incorporated some of the absolute bananas from the core D20 system - i.e. some of the feats.
I mean what is the point of Weapon Focus (+1 to hit with a PARTICULAR gun). Big deal...

First, apologies for previous null post; I have thick finger syndrome...

Consider Joe the goon: "This is my M1911 Colt Commander - isn't it neat? I *like* my .45... I've filed the trigger mechanism, put some cool engraved slogans down the side of the barrel, and I even have these neat little notches for the fellows I shot!"

Does any of this really make a difference in the way the pistol works? Probably not (the trigger tuning might help) but the owner is certainly convinced that it's a *good* gun and probably shoots just a bit better with it because of that. Effective feat in game terms? Possibly not. Effective in role-playing terms? Probably. Just a thought...

 

[Spinward Scout]

Well, there's another reason that it may seem like small potatoes to get a +1 to an attack. Most T20 characters aren't starting out at 1st level. And most D&D characters are. That's where the big difference is.

Scout

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Originally posted by ScoutCadet469:
Well, there's another reason that it may seem like small potatoes to get a +1 to an attack. Most T20 characters aren't starting out at 1st level. And most D&D characters are. That's where the big difference is.

Scout

A couple points just came to me as I was rereading the posts in this thread:

a) Although T20 characters start with multiple levels, assuming one uses prior history, many of the classes aren't that combat heavy. For them, a +1 to hit with a specific class of weapon might be worth it even if one has eight or nine levels of prior history.

b) Remember, unlike 3e D&D, there's not that many ways to get a bonus built into a specific item. No +3 Frostbrand gauss pistols for instance. Only major ones I can think of are in TA #1, the HUD site option, which I must admit does add a +3 to hit for a fairly low cost, and there are some pistols that are rated as being things like "highly accurate" or "long barreled" in TA #1, which I think it states that the GM has the option of allowing a +1 to hit for such. Plus, a ruthless GM can always rule that a HUD enhanced weapon is restricted at higher law levels anyway. So, a +1 to hit with a certain class of weapon might suddenly not be too horrid, if one can't find too many ways to get weapons with to hit bonuses.

Just some thoughts...one thing I do like about the feat system in a way, one man's great feat is another man's garbage. But I must admit, that in some ways they aren't balanced, some too weak, some too strong...but that I think stems back to 3e D&D more then T20, the ones that come to mind are D&D feats also found in T20.

 

[manley_t]

hmmm....

Thing about feats is that you have a finite number. You may at first glance think that feat A is more powerful than feat B; but you get so many feats and the more advanced, *really* powerful feats or the feats required for that prestige class you want.

As for a +1 to hit? That's not useless at all. Neither is +3 hit points. And, if you take it in scope, both are about the same power. That is, in D&D both are, but T20 breaks that balance model with Lifeblood/Stamina.