• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Running CT with just LBB 1-3

Let me state from the outset kile I have the greatest respect for your posts - you make me think and you post good stuff. What follows is sort of devil's advocate stuff. No offence intended (sometimes I hate the internet - I would love to be able to talk about this stuff face to face with you lot :)
Mike-

<Shrug> firing your weapon is a routine task by most systems, are you seriously suggesting role playing that out as default?
Nope, but most rpgs get the probabilities from the Hollywood school of combat.

In the real world if you were storming the Normandy beaches or crossing no man's land on the Somme you may as well make a saving throw vs death.

Or vice versa, even Scotty can roll a 2 and have a Big Problem.
The problem is you make Scotty roll for every routine task. How many critical failures do commercial airliners suffer during take off - that's routine. Or how many times have you had a critical failure driving your car - it should be 1/36 same as for Scotty ;)

Heck, the LBBs are RIFE with alternative die rolling for this or that, ignoring any sort of single convention in favor of what makes sense for that specific situation. Lots of people like that about CT, others don't, but you certainly cannot claim consistency as a hallmark of LBB resolution.
I agree - but every single skill has the skill more important than the stat - look at the combat skills, -4 for no skill but a low stat may cost you at the most -2.

By comparison, task systems like mine and various predecessors are far more consistent, if that is important to you.
It is which is why I have two target numbers instead of looking up every skill roll - but I do not want characteristic to trump skill.
 
Let me state from the outset kile I have the greatest respect for your posts - you make me think and you post good stuff. What follows is sort of devil's advocate stuff. No offence intended (sometimes I hate the internet - I would love to be able to talk about this stuff face to face with you lot :)

Alright, I will take it in that context.

Nope, but most rpgs get the probabilities from the Hollywood school of combat.

In the real world if you were storming the Normandy beaches or crossing no man's land on the Somme you may as well make a saving throw vs death.

Hmm, well then between the horrid killing high hit percentages of autoweapons (especially in Striker) and my high Dex high skill killers, you're going to see a LOT of Omaha Beach dead people.

Not to mention I'm making it worse by making combat be more about the skill of the character rather then the weapon's 23D hits. A killer with a silenced 22 or a STR A Brawling-4 guy can kill you just as dead as FGMP-whatever, moreso with the skills.


The problem is you make Scotty roll for every routine task. How many critical failures do commercial airliners suffer during take off - that's routine. Or how many times have you had a critical failure driving your car - it should be 1/36 same as for Scotty ;)

Who said I intend to make Scotty roll every time? It's there if I want it, most of the time it doesn't advance the story I don't force the roll.

Course I'm the kind of ref that likes occasionally forcing a roll just to make them nervous and on their toes.

Most of the time something routine with a fail is just going to be a loss of time and correction, just like avoiding problems that happen all the time.

It's when you fail the correction roll that stuff starts going bad.

I agree - but every single skill has the skill more important than the stat - look at the combat skills, -4 for no skill but a low stat may cost you at the most -2.

It is which is why I have two target numbers instead of looking up every skill roll - but I do not want characteristic to trump skill.

Hmm, this is one of those taste things- I have no problem with 50% of the populace not being optimal in gun combat, because they AREN'T.

Will really set up those that are to be the scary people they should be- and of course primary targets for opponents.

And natural talent is also fine by me- but fail to develop it with skill, education and/or at least a well-rounded JOAT ability, and you've got somebody that can step up and do a lot of things physically or intellectually, but not terribly well.

Consider robots for instance- relatively cheap to give them storage enough for educations of G, but if you force them into using that skill AND low intelligence, then they can do routine tasks all day long with the sum total knowledge of human experience in their drives, but a MacGyver problem solving exercise should leave them gibbering.

A -2 doesn't really convey that.
 
Let's take the case study of the first character from Supp4 COTI and the last.

Pirate-1 is

569AA9 Brawling-1 Vacc-1 Age 22


Very much a blank slate, and not terribly well equipped for the universe from a skill or equipment perspective (0 Cr, nothing to his name).

His brawling is going to be sad either in my system or CT's, in both cases he would get the equivalent of a -2. I would give him the chance of doing extra damage if his player wanted, or pull his punches and do less damage.

Not being one of the negative unskilled gun people, he can hit on a -1 in my system, about half of the CT weapons give him a -2 or -3.

His high Int and Edu is going to allow him a LOT of rolls under my system.

A lot of Routine is going to go to Difficult, but he has enough education to drop those from -4 to -2 on rolls of 9, after which his Int takes over and he rolls successfully on 7s. And all that before any roleplay mods.

Under CT he might get hammered worse, anywhere from 3 to 5 depending on the roll, with no education chance to 'know something'.

If anything, my system is closer to what I gather the intent of Hum is re: characters being able to problem solve and not be hamstrung by the tyranny of the skill table.

Well unless his Int AND Edu was below average and no JOAT or skill to compensate.

His social standing would allow him to get a good chance of a loan and to possibly hide/escape consequence of his previous avocation.



The last COTI character, Hunter-40, is-

3BCCB3 Hunting-1 Gun Combat-1 Age 22


Another young one, this one would be harder to brawl under my system as his weakness gets him a -4 vs. -2 in CT, his Dex would get him +1/+2 to CT weapons vs. +4 in mine, he would even be better in a lot of freelance problem solving situations then character #1, but his Soc would make him looked down upon and not able to get a loan for a pair of clothes much less business equipment or vehicles.

So weaker in hand to hand, better at shooting, and can use his intellectual capacity to get out of a lot of situations, but not necessarily get a job outside hunting and unlikely to get that country club invite.

This is what I mean by making the character pop, enabling his characteristics to mean something means he has certain avenues open, others closed or very difficult
 
I think this is spot on - the referee is encouraged to fill in the blank lines in the technology chart with his/her science fiction tropes of choice.

I just noticed the players are encouraged to add to the technology table too...

I wonder what people have added over the years?
 
Last edited:

Your blog is excellent reading and thanks for posting the link to Miller's article.

As an aside I noticed that Miller quotes a UWP for Vior of X500401-1, which I assume is from leviathan (I'm away from home so can't check)

In travellermap, Vior has become D500401-7.

I don't know when or how the change happened but it smacks of amending the UWP to make it more "realistic" (TL 1 with no atmosphere? Impossible!).

But I guess it's precisely the "unrealistic" combination of no atmos and TL 1 that helped get Miller's creativity flowing.

I'm not saying it's impossible to set an exciting adventure on updated Vior, but I would argue the new UWP isn't as suggestive of cool adventure potential.

Seems like a nice example of how treating the game as a reality simulator rather than as a framework to facilitate adventure can be unhelpful, at least for a certain play style. (I suppose some groups would find the original UWP so contrary to common sense that they would be turned off the game as a result.)
 
Your blog is excellent reading and thanks for posting the link to Miller's article.

As an aside I noticed that Miller quotes a UWP for Vior of X500401-1, which I assume is from leviathan (I'm away from home so can't check)

In travellermap, Vior has become D500401-7.

I don't know when or how the change happened but it smacks of amending the UWP to make it more "realistic" (TL 1 with no atmosphere? Impossible!).

But I guess it's precisely the "unrealistic" combination of no atmos and TL 1 that helped get Miller's creativity flowing.

I'm not saying it's impossible to set an exciting adventure on updated Vior, but I would argue the new UWP isn't as suggestive of cool adventure potential.

Seems like a nice example of how treating the game as a reality simulator rather than as a framework to facilitate adventure can be unhelpful, at least for a certain play style. (I suppose some groups would find the original UWP so contrary to common sense that they would be turned off the game as a result.)

Vior, X500401, Tech Level 1, is from Leviathan, and I would agree that using the World Profile as given would definitely stretch the imagination of whoever is Game Mastering the adventure.
 
Vior, X500401, Tech Level 1, is from Leviathan, and I would agree that using the World Profile as given would definitely stretch the imagination of whoever is Game Mastering the adventure.

I'll give it a whirl.

Pre-technological solar powered silicon race who have no idea of government or organization, just a bare grasp on trade, that just happens to have a genetically imprinted Prospector-4 skill on most adults. They naturally hollow out rocks they are eating, making for very good asteroid engineers.

Once concepts of a 'deal' get across, the adventurers may be able to get one to sign on to act as 'head geologist', in exchange for tasty mineral treats throughout the galaxy. Just keep the yummy rocks coming, lest the silicon traveller find the ship too tempting to nibble on.

There, now I will look up the adventure in question.

Ok, that's interesting, and I remember that one now. Rats!
 
The trick was never coming up with an explanation for one really unlikely world (like no air at TL 1). The problem was explaining why there were so darn many bizzare combinations.

It was just a 'space opera' feature of the random generation.

I personally just scrubbed it after the fact for a 'hard science to taste' character.
 
The trick was never coming up with an explanation for one really unlikely world (like no air at TL 1). The problem was explaining why there were so darn many bizzare combinations.

It was just a 'space opera' feature of the random generation.

I personally just scrubbed it after the fact for a 'hard science to taste' character.

If the World Characteristics get too weird, like Pixie, an "A" class starport with a population of less than 100, and a Naval Base to boot, I will change something to make it more reasonable. Otherwise, if I can come up with an explanation that I can live with, I keep on going.
 
The trick was never coming up with an explanation for one really unlikely world (like no air at TL 1). The problem was explaining why there were so darn many bizzare combinations.

I am about to type something. I'm not disagreeing with you.

Here is my question:

Given the context of the kind of RPG play original Traveller was designed to support, in which the Players love encountering, exploring, and puzzle solving new environments, how can it be a "problem" to have "so darn many bizarre combinations"?

Keep in mind two things:

1) I am speaking of a specific kind of RPG play. It is RPG play from the 1970s. A kind of play some would call OSR today. Eero Tuovinen, in this post from 2007, calls it Challenge-Based Adventuring, which I think is a perfect description for the kind of play original Traveller was built to engender.

In another post Eero speaks defines Challenge-Based Adventuring as:

"tackling a compelling fantasy world, recognizing opportunity for adventure, identifying challenges involved, and then figuring out how these challenges may be resolved. The payoff is the satisfaction of success or the bitter pathos of defeat brought about by the combination of clever decision-making and resolving the fictional events with flair.

It's a real dynamic process in the sense that nobody's fudging, nobody's planning the outcome, everything's happening as just as real an interaction as in any boardgame, except that we have an infinite variety of moves available in all their subtle nuances thanks to the game being set in a shared imagined space instead of on a gameboard."

If you...

  • Switch out "fantasy world" for "exotic worlds;"
  • keep in mind the methods of puzzling solving in Traveller (the skill list is compact for a reason: to let the Players do the bulk of the work, instead of skill rolls against a character sheet solving the group's problems);
  • and respect the danger and risk of death built into the game system...

And you Eero's description becomes a perfect description of original Traveller play.

The point of having so many bizarre combinations is because it's fun to explore, encounter, and survive the worlds grown from them.

An example from D&D based rules: In my current Lamentations of the Flame Princess campaign, we have played through several published scenarios from LotFP across a fantastical 17th century Europe torn apart my religious war:
  • A Stranger Storm
  • Death Frost Doom
  • The God That Crawls
  • Scenic Dunnsmouth

... as well as several scenarios I have created to stitch everything together. It is all one campaign. But the details of the scenarios are all outlandish and fantastical (and often horrific) in utterly different ways.

They will be soon on their way to a dark fantasy Southeast Asia, and I have another half-dozen scenarios on tap as well. Each unique and strange from the other. (Though, again, I am sticking a thread through them all.)

The Players are eating it up. They come because they do not know what they will get. They come and have a great time because each scenario has its own unique challenges and rules to discover, puzzle out, and solve. They set their own goals, and then decide how far they'll go to get them. It's going gangbusters because this style of play is very effective.

2) Here is a passage I quoted from The Stars My Destination from my post about the science-fiction that inspired Marc Miller when he wrote Traveller:

BETWEEN MARS AND JUPITER is spread the broad belt of the asteroids. Of the thousands, known and unknown, most unique to the Freak Century was the Sargasso Asteroid, a tiny planet manufactured of natural rock and wreckage salvaged by its inhabitants in the course of two hundred years.

They were savages, the only savages of the twenty-fourth century; descendants of a research team of scientists that had been lost and marooned in the asteroid belt two centuries before when their ship had failed. By the time their descendants were rediscovered they had built up a world and a culture of their own, and preferred to remain in space, salvaging and spoiling, and practicing a barbaric travesty of the scientific method they remembered from their forebears. They called themselves The Scientific People. The world promptly forgot them.

The Stars My Destination (1956)
(First Serialized in Galaxy Magazine)
Alfred Bester

One might think that environment is too ridiculous to be believed. But it is only one such environment in The Stars My Destination. Moreover, Traveller was built to have one environment like this after another. Because it is fun.


Now, here's a thing:

Not every RPG is designed to do this. Not every RPG should do this. This isn't the right kind of play style. Nor is it the only thing Traveller can or should do. (For example, some games I love are: Sorcerer, Pendragon, Primetime Adventures, Burning Wheel, and HeroQuest in Glorantha. None of these work the way original Dungeons and Dragons and original Traveller were designed to work.)

My thesis has been, and remains, that the original Traveller brilliantly did what it was designed to do. Some people might not like what it was designed to do. But that doesn't change the fact that it was an utter success at it.

That said, I know I had to wrap my head around all this. My LotFP, besides being a blast in its own right, is also a training exercise for the Traveller game i want to run. I had to scrub away habits and training from other, later RPGs and RPG techniques. But having seen the success of my LotFP game in action, I'm looking forward to the pulp-SF gaming that Traveller set out to create.

As for all the bizarre combinations, as I always say, I see them as a feature, not a bug.
 
As for all the bizarre combinations, as I always say, I see them as a feature, not a bug.

And you do not necessarily have to have bizarre combinations to make things interesting.

In all of my science fiction reading, which goes back to the early 1960s, as I was reading the H. Beam Piper stories when first released by Ace, along with Andre Norton, and the rest of the classic authors, three planets stand out in my mind as totally fascinating ones that I read and re-read again and again.

1. Hal Clement's Mesklin: Under Traveller, it would not be possible to visit very easily, but with gravity compensation and contra-gravity modules on vehicles, in might not be so intimidating.

The other two are by H. Beam Piper, and I suspect that their World Characteristics would not be that bizarre, but the planets are not anywhere near what a Traveller planet profile would let you to believe.

2. Fenris, the Four-Day Planet: It has a breathable atmosphere, plenty of water and land, and about Earth-normal gravity. So call it a "C" Class starport, repairs but no building, size about 8, atmosphere 6, and hydrographic percentage maybe 7. Sounds marvelous at Terra-Norm. However, it also rotates exactly 4 times in its orbit around its sun, so the day-night cycle is 2000 hours long. Something like that does not show up in the Planet Profile very well.

3. Uller: About the same size as Terra, breathable atmosphere, good hydrographic percentage, but a bit of a twist. The following quote comes from the Project Gutenberg download of Uller Uprising.

Uller revolves around it in a nearly circular orbit, at a distance of 100,000,000 miles, making it a little colder than Earth. A year is of the approximate length of that on Earth. A day lasts 26 hours.

The axis of Uller is in the same plane as the orbit, so that at a certain time of the year the north pole is pointed directly at the sun, while at the opposite end of the orbit it points directly away. The result is highly exaggerated seasons. At the poles the temperature runs from 120°C to a low of -80°C. At the equator it remains not far from 10°C all year round. Strong winds blow during the summer and winter, from the hot to the cold pole; few winds during the spring and fall. The appearance of the poles varies during the year from baked deserts to glaciers covered with solid CO2. Free water exists in the equatorial regions all year round.

And one last kicker, the animal life is silicone-based. Not a single thing on the planet is food for a carbon-based lifeform.

It is quite possible to have what looks like a perfectly reasonable UWP and find it to be totally off the wall in reality.

Then you have the worlds of Andre Norton, which are also memorable, but in a different way. Aside from her skill at describing them, it is what she hides on them that makes the story. Arzor, Jumala, janus, the world of Catseye (which I cannot remember the name of at the moment), Limbo, and Warlock all hide mysteries that do not appear on the surface, nor would appear in a UWP, at least to start. While Marc has a ban on new early star-faring races, that does not stop the Game Master from adding them to their Universe, and if you use the original 3 books, especially the 1977 edition, you really do not have a OTU out there.
 
I am about to type something. I'm not disagreeing with you.

[snip]

As for all the bizarre combinations, as I always say, I see them as a feature, not a bug.

Agreed, IF you wanted that Space Opera feel.

It was just the metagame impacts of so many such worlds that started to 'snap the suspenders of disbelief' for people who came along later looking for something more ... [hyperbole] 'Honor Harrington' than 'Dinosaurs on Venus'. [/hyperbole] ;)

Personally, I prefer to start with the random generation potential for a bizarre combination that will give me a chance to come up with something ... to be inspired. I have no problem changing a few numbers if that will suit my purposes better as a Ref, I would just rather have the chance, than have it removed by some careful formula.
 
And you do not necessarily have to have bizarre combinations to make things interesting.

Excellent points.


Agreed, IF you wanted that Space Opera feel.

Without doubt.

It was just the metagame impacts of so many such worlds that started to 'snap the suspenders of disbelief' for people who came along later looking for something more ... [hyperbole] 'Honor Harrington' than 'Dinosaurs on Venus'. [/hyperbole] ;)

Personally, I prefer to start with the random generation potential for a bizarre combination that will give me a chance to come up with something ... to be inspired. I have no problem changing a few numbers if that will suit my purposes better as a Ref, I would just rather have the chance, than have it removed by some careful formula.

Without doubt, different people wanted a different focus for the game. And that's great.

And even within the rules of Books 1-3, the game encourages the Referee to change them to whatever he wants, and not be beholden to them. In the same way the game states plainly the Referee should feel to alter the odds of Main World distribution in a subsector. And, in the same way, the rues encourage the Referee to alter the odds of starport quality to suit his or her whims.

Overall, it's clear that Books 1-3 were designed to encourage and support the Referee in creating whatever kind of setting he or she wanted. I don't think anyone on this thread is doing this, but some people seem to think the Main World generation system are some kind of handcuffs... when, in fact, they were designed to be, and stated to be, tools that the Referee could use in whatever fashion he or she wished.


I will say, that at least when I roll the dice, I tend to get a fair share of worlds that are not that outlandish at all. Part of my challenge is often to come up with something more exotic and unique to make sure the feel more "science-fiction" -- in the manner timerover suggests in his previous post.
 
In looking at the differences between the 1977 LBBs and the 1981 LBBs, I am leaning towards going with the 1977 version, as the ship building rules make it easier to get what I would like. With respect to character generation, I think that I would also use Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium, to give a bit wider range of character choices. Then the home world of the PC would also play a factor. I am working on giving the Scouts a rank system, based on a blend of Andre Norton and Christopher Anvil, along with working a bit more on the Wet Sailor class, and Supplement 4 also adds the Survival skill, which really is needed.
 
In looking at the differences between the 1977 LBBs and the 1981 LBBs, I am leaning towards going with the 1977 version, as the ship building rules make it easier to get what I would like. With respect to character generation, I think that I would also use Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium, to give a bit wider range of character choices. Then the home world of the PC would also play a factor. I am working on giving the Scouts a rank system, based on a blend of Andre Norton and Christopher Anvil, along with working a bit more on the Wet Sailor class, and Supplement 4 also adds the Survival skill, which really is needed.

Yes - nice to see someone else likes Anvil's* stories (the two Interstellar Patrol anthologies are great compilations and exemplars).



* Harry Christopher Crosby
 
In looking at the differences between the 1977 LBBs and the 1981 LBBs, I am leaning towards going with the 1977 version, as the ship building rules make it easier to get what I would like. With respect to character generation, I think that I would also use Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium, to give a bit wider range of character choices. Then the home world of the PC would also play a factor. I am working on giving the Scouts a rank system, based on a blend of Andre Norton and Christopher Anvil, along with working a bit more on the Wet Sailor class, and Supplement 4 also adds the Survival skill, which really is needed.

Can you tell me more about the differences between 77 and 81 and the differences you prefer in 77?
Thanks!
 
Back
Top