Research Labs in CT

[Timerover51]

And also to the biggest problem with all the canonical definitions of population. It's not described if only inhabitants (what we'd call today citizens, those calling it home) are counted or transient people (those who may be there even for some years, but who call home elswhere) is too.

I go with the population number of the planet being the average population, permanent and transient, except for Asteroid Belts, where the population is that of the Belt as a whole.

On very low population planets with a high Tech level, I assume that the population is there to exploit some valuable resource, and the the Tech Level refers to what may, if available, be purchased there. Maintenance is a different story.

To produce the full spectrum of items at a given Tech Level, I figure that for Tech Level 4, you need a population in the millions, and for Tech Level 5, in the tens of millions. For Tech Level 6 and higher, a population in the hundreds of millions, assuming a unified planetary government. With lower populations, not everything can be made and/or maintained locally, so imports are necessary.

 

[McPerth]

I go with the population number of the planet being the average population, permanent and transient, except for Asteroid Belts, where the population is that of the Belt as a whole.

In this case, populations from very low pop systems will easily vary, while Traveller UWP are fixed, unless a good reason varies them.

On very low population planets with a high Tech level, I assume that the population is there to exploit some valuable resource, and the the Tech Level refers to what may, if available, be purchased there. Maintenance is a different story.

See that in this case, Pixie ( SM 1903, A 100103 D N), to give an example will not have the resources to maintain its A rated starport, and less so the Naval Base. I guess the presence of a Naval Base tells us its average transient population is over 99 people (the maximum for pop 1), so, IMHO, transient population (in this case Naval Base personnel) are not counted in the pop stat.

See also that according to TCS, its capacity for ship maintenance, repair and building is nil, while CT rules would allow hsips to be maintained, repaired and built there, and TNS in JTAS 2 specifically talks about the GP shipbuilding facilities there.

To produce the full spectrum of items at a given Tech Level, I figure that for Tech Level 4, you need a population in the millions, and for Tech Level 5, in the tens of millions. For Tech Level 6 and higher, a population in the hundreds of millions, assuming a unified planetary government. With lower populations, not everything can be made and/or maintained locally, so imports are necessary.

While I agree with giving limits, I see yours quite harsh. By applying them, current Earth states as Germany or UK (80+ and 60+ million inhabitants, respectively) will not be able to maintain their infrastructures. In fact, only 11 countries in the world will be able to...

Personally, I'd put this limit at the tens of millions (pop 7), which, coincidently, is the minimum for a system not to be labelled as non-industrial.

 

[rancke]

See that in this case, Pixie ( SM 1903, A 100103 D N), to give an example will not have the resources to maintain its A rated starport, and less so the Naval Base. I guess the presence of a Naval Base tells us its average transient population is over 99 people (the maximum for pop 1), so, IMHO, transient population (in this case Naval Base personnel) are not counted in the pop stat.

Nor is the personnel for the shipyard. However, that's not the conclusion I arrive at. I conclude that the description of Pixie is broken.

See also that according to TCS, its capacity for ship maintenance, repair and building is nil, while CT rules would allow ships to be maintained, repaired and built there, and TNS in JTAS 2 specifically talks about the GP shipbuilding facilities there.

As I said, broken.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Nor is the personnel for the shipyard. However, that's not the conclusion I arrive at. I conclude that the description of Pixie is broken.

As I said, broken.

Of course you can change it IYTU, as it's yours, but in OTU Pixie is as is (and even used in at least one adventure, IIRC the last one of the Imperial Tour), and it's canon for OTU, with all contradictions it has...

 

[rancke]

Of course you can change it IYTU, as it's yours, but in OTU Pixie is as is (and even used in at least one adventure, IIRC the last one of the Imperial Tour), and it's canon for OTU, with all contradictions it has...

Emphasis added by me.

My own TU is completely irrelevant. I know I can change anything I want in my TU. It doesn't even have to be things that don't work. I can change it just because it suits me.

The statement I made was meant to express the opinion -- fact, really -- that the canonical Pixie is broken. Canon can do many things, but one thing it can't do is make mutually contradictory things true in the same universe. And Pixie doesn't just have two mutually contradictory things -- it has a whole slew of them.

I repeat: Pixie, as described in various canonical sources, is broken.


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

I repeat: Pixie, as described in various canonical sources, is broken.

Has anyone ever asked Marc, or Loren, or even Dave N, their opinion on how to handle Pixie?

(Was Pixie the site of the Ancient site in the final Trav Digest? Maybe that was the answer - the whole Class A 'port and Naval Base are a cover-up for Other Things... As Hans has said in the past, this sort of explanation works as long as you don't overuse it. If you always have something so weird, so outside the normal rules, that you have to justify it with more "outside the rules" explanations", something's wrong.

Occasional is quirky; any more and it gets too much.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I go with the population number of the planet being the average population, permanent and transient, except for Asteroid Belts, where the population is that of the Belt as a whole.

In this case, populations from very low pop systems will easily vary, while Traveller UWP are fixed, unless a good reason varies them.

Not really. Remember that an average can be figured over time, and the right sample frequency and size can make it very stable.

 

[Timerover51]

I go with the population number of the planet being the average population, permanent and transient, except for Asteroid Belts, where the population is that of the Belt as a whole.

In this case, populations from very low pop systems will easily vary, while Traveller UWP are fixed, unless a good reason varies them.

I do not intend to argue with you.

On very low population planets with a high Tech level, I assume that the population is there to exploit some valuable resource, and the the Tech Level refers to what may, if available, be purchased there. Maintenance is a different story.

See that in this case, Pixie ( SM 1903, A 100103 D N), to give an example will not have the resources to maintain its A rated starport, and less so the Naval Base. I guess the presence of a Naval Base tells us its average transient population is over 99 people (the maximum for pop 1), so, IMHO, transient population (in this case Naval Base personnel) are not counted in the pop stat.

See also that according to TCS, its capacity for ship maintenance, repair and building is nil, while CT rules would allow hsips to be maintained, repaired and built there, and TNS in JTAS 2 specifically talks about the GP shipbuilding facilities there.

Pixie is very badly broken, and needs a revised population value.

To produce the full spectrum of items at a given Tech Level, I figure that for Tech Level 4, you need a population in the millions, and for Tech Level 5, in the tens of millions. For Tech Level 6 and higher, a population in the hundreds of millions, assuming a unified planetary government. With lower populations, not everything can be made and/or maintained locally, so imports are necessary.

While I agree with giving limits, I see yours quite harsh. By applying them, current Earth states as Germany or UK (80+ and 60+ million inhabitants, respectively) will not be able to maintain their infrastructures. In fact, only 11 countries in the world will be able to...

Personally, I'd put this limit at the tens of millions (pop 7), which, coincidently, is the minimum for a system not to be labelled as non-industrial.

Neither Germany nor the UK produce large commercial aircraft, nor do they maintain an independent space program. Germany, for an extended period of time did not produce its own major combat aircraft. Europe as a whole is capable of producing the goods for Tech Level 6 and higher, individual countries are not.

I am not interesting in arguing this point further with you, as it is a matter of opinion.

 

[McPerth]

Neither Germany nor the UK produce large commercial aircraft, nor do they maintain an independent space program. Germany, for an extended period of time did not produce its own major combat aircraft. Europe as a whole is capable of producing the goods for Tech Level 6 and higher, individual countries are not.

True, nor Germany not UK produce them as now, but are you sure it's for lack of capability? After all, they both produced them at TL6 (WWII) with even less population that today.

The fact that they pooled their resources for all those productions/maintenances is more a political option (and so I won't discuss here) that a lack of capability due to lack of population.

I am not interesting in arguing this point further with you, as it is a matter of opinion.

True again, it's a matter of opinion, as are most (if not all) the posts in this forum, but as I understood this now, we agree in the basic fact (a minimum population is needed to maintain a TL and facilities, all we disagree is the number needed.

If any of my opinions or comments offended you, let me apologize, as this was not my intent.

 

[BlackBat242]

True, nor Germany not UK produce them as now, but ae you sure it's for lack of capability? After all, they both produced them at TL6 (WWII) with even less population that today.

They both produced them as recently as the 1960s!

As did France!

 

[altasilvapuer]

I've been musing over this some more, this week. The main reason I asked was that I was caught in a dichotomy between two opposing trends in system generation:
On the one hand, if I allowed research bases on worlds with pop 0, and then ended up with systems littered with research bases (one had upwards of 12 RBs across 36 worlds, discounting Gas Giants and rings).
On the other hand, if I require local population of a world of >=1, rolling for research bases becomes extremely unlikely.

So I have this dichotomy to ponder: Do I want rare research bases in MTU, or plentiful ones?

I've been toying around with new approaches in some of the systems I've rolled, and I've remarked upon two realizations:

• Postulate 1: Population 0 does not mean no living sentients are there. It means between 0 and 9 living sentients are there.
• Postulate 2: When rolling for spaceports, a roll of 6 on a world with Pop-0 gets you a grade H spaceport - "primitive facilities."

So some pop-0 worlds are inhabited. Some may/may not also have spaceports. Therefore, some may/may not also have research bases.

To keep numbers down, though, I'm only rolling for research bases on worlds that have a population count greater than 0 and/or a spaceport rating greater than or equal to H.

Obviously a MTU solution, and I don't know how it compares to the numbers in the OTU. I don't play OTU, generally. Thoughts on the mechanics/house-ruling of it? I'm also still waffling with military bases.

 

[rancke]

I've been musing over this some more, this week. The main reason I asked was that I was caught in a dichotomy between two opposing trends in system generation:

On the one hand, if I allowed research bases on worlds with pop 0, and then ended up with systems littered with research bases (one had upwards of 12 RBs across 36 worlds, discounting Gas Giants and rings).

Rules, especially rules for generating setting background, are supposed to be helpful, not a hindrance. If you roll up something that doesn't seem right to you, reroll or change something to make it work. In the case of your example, I'd try to figure out a good reason why research stations are so unusually plentiful in this system. If I think of something good, I'd figure out the average number of people stationed in the system and change the UWP to reflect that number. I's probably make the government type balkanized with most or all the individual governments captive. Or perhaps I'd make it governed by the Imperium in one form of another.

If I couldn't come up with something good, I'd reroll.

On the other hand, if I require local population of a world of >=1, rolling for research bases becomes extremely unlikely.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Postulate 1: Population 0 does not mean no living sentients are there. It means between 0 and 9 living sentients are there.

That's perfectly true. However, coming up with an explanation why everybody else leave them alone is often difficult. If it's a very crappy system it's possible that no one else wants it, but otherwise any population too small to defend itself needs a 'Big Brother' to protect it. The Imperium or a nearby major world can serve as such a protector, provided you can explain why it would bother.


Hans

 

[altasilvapuer]

Hans,
I think part of my earlier confusion has led to more confusion; let me try to explain it better.

First of all, I'm talking about systems that have a populated main world, but subsidiary worlds are not necessarily populated.

Let's assume a copy of Sol System that is empty of the OTU items.
Pseudo-Earth has a population of... I dunno... 9. Good enough for the argument.
The other bodies in the system all have population code 0.

If I require that all worlds have a population greater or equal to 1, then I cannot roll for a research base on Pseudo-Luna. Pseudo-Sol system has NO research bases anywhere.

If I allow rolling for a research base on all worlds regardless of population, I might end up with research bases on Mercury, Venus, Luna, Asteroid Belt, Io, Pluto, etc, etc.

Could I theoretically explain either extreme? Of course, but that's not my concern here. I'm kitbashing the rules to make most rolls fall between those two extremes, but not at them. I'd prefer not to justify and/or modify a large number of the systems I roll up just in terms of research bases.

So, my hypothesized solution:
I roll for spaceports on subsidiary bodies before rolling for bases. If I have a grade-H spaceport or greater, I allow the roll for a research base regardless of local population. If I have pop-1 or greater, I allow the roll for a research base regardless of local spaceport. At least one of the two is required, so as to minimize the number of research base-filled systems without making them rarer than unobtanium or industrial world status (the latter being another discussion entirely; most of the rules there seem mutually exclusive).

Scenarios:
Pseudo-Mercury: Pop-0, Port-H. Do NOT roll for RB.
Pseudo-Luna: Pop-2, Port-Y. Roll for RB.
Pseudo-Mars: Pop-0, Port-H. Roll for RB.
Pseudo-Io: Pop-2, Port H. Roll for RB.

What I'm curious is if this seems ridiculous to all of you, or if you find it somewhat sensible/feasible. I've noticed a hole or two in the rolls, but I want to see if you guys notice them, first.

-asp

 

[Carlobrand]

...

• Postulate 1: Population 0 does not mean no living sentients are there. It means between 0 and 9 living sentients are there.

It means there were no permanent residents as of the last census. If I as census-taker come upon a world with a half-dozen people, I'd have to seriously wonder whether they'd still be there when I returned in a few years. A population that small is by its nature unstable: whatever it is that they do to put food in their mouths could fail tomorrow; there's no room in a community that small for a quick shift to an alternative economic base. One person deciding to throw in the towel could mean the whole thing's gone in a week. And, asking about their form of government or system of laws is just absurd. Alternately, they could strike gold and suddenly bloom up to a population code 1 or 2 settlement within a few weeks. Ergo, there's no point in my counting heads or collecting information - the information is too likely to change between now and the next survey.

The lower population codes - and the law and government codes that accompany them - are best taken with a caveat: "subject to change without notice". A recruiter hunting for skilled workers for the asteroid mining operation in the neighboring star system could entirely depopulate a pop code 2 world with the right bonuses, or a lucky find could turn a pop code 0 world into a town of several thousand inside of a year. The small group that had no restrictions at all could suddenly vote in a bunch of restrictive new rules because Joe went postal and shot a bunch of his coworkers.

• Postulate 2: When rolling for spaceports, a roll of 6 on a world with Pop-0 gets you a grade H spaceport - "primitive facilities."

A "primitive facility" could be nothing more than an unmanned landing pad and a beacon for the craft that stop off there from time to time. Doesn't mean anyone's living there on a permanent basis.

So some pop-0 worlds are inhabited. Some may/may not also have spaceports. Therefore, some may/may not also have research bases.
...

A does not equal B. I interpret the requirement for a population base and a minimum tech level to mean that the research base has certain minimum support requirements and is counted toward population statistics. The roll in question is a "subordinate facility" roll, a roll for a research base that conducts, "asic research, either into local phenomena, or in special interests of the main world, ...". In other words, there's a reason they put it way out here and not on the main world. If research bases are rare, it's because most of the time they'd be located on the main world and blend in with the rest of the main world's economy, requiring no special roll to exist.

On the other hand:

1) The data is the data as of the last census, the data available to the players. The final arbiter is the gamemaster: if he decides a research base centered on a community of a couple hundred souls has grown up there over the past six months, then by Jiminy there's a research base and a couple of hundred souls there. Things change, especially when you're dealing with that end of the UPP.

2) What Rancke said: rules are a guide, not a straitjacket. Who is going to complain if you put an automated research lab on a Pop-0 world and have it operated by robots being given orders from the safety of the mainworld? Might be the safest way to conduct certain biological research. There's no spaceport? OK, there's no spaceport: the only landing pad is occupied by our cutter, and it is intended only for our cutter; we don't want you to land so we haven't built any place for you to land - stay in orbit and we'll send up our cutter to meet you.

 

[Timerover51]

I've been musing over this some more, this week. The main reason I asked was that I was caught in a dichotomy between two opposing trends in system generation:
On the one hand, if I allowed research bases on worlds with pop 0, and then ended up with systems littered with research bases (one had upwards of 12 RBs across 36 worlds, discounting Gas Giants and rings).
On the other hand, if I require local population of a world of >=1, rolling for research bases becomes extremely unlikely.

So I have this dichotomy to ponder: Do I want rare research bases in MTU, or plentiful ones?

I've been toying around with new approaches in some of the systems I've rolled, and I've remarked upon two realizations:

• Postulate 1: Population 0 does not mean no living sentients are there. It means between 0 and 9 living sentients are there.
• Postulate 2: When rolling for spaceports, a roll of 6 on a world with Pop-0 gets you a grade H spaceport - "primitive facilities."

So some pop-0 worlds are inhabited. Some may/may not also have spaceports. Therefore, some may/may not also have research bases.

To keep numbers down, though, I'm only rolling for research bases on worlds that have a population count greater than 0 and/or a spaceport rating greater than or equal to H.

Obviously a MTU solution, and I don't know how it compares to the numbers in the OTU. I don't play OTU, generally. Thoughts on the mechanics/house-ruling of it? I'm also still waffling with military bases.

I think that you are letting the die roll have too much control over what you are doing. Research labs, military bases, and major scout bases should be placed and not randomly rolled. I have a Scout presence at all A, B, and C Class starports, with the possibility of them at D ports. There will always be a Scout presence in an inhabited asteroid belt.

I understand that flies in the face of the rules, but to me, rules are guidelines, made to be broken.