Research Labs in CT

[altasilvapuer]

I've been looking at these rules until my eyes go cross-eyed, but I'm still not sure I'm reading this correctly. Can someone else sanity-check me?

Research Laboratory indicates that a scientific establishment has been located on the world or satellite. For a research laboratory to be present, throw 11+; DM+2 if main world tech level is 10+. If the main world has tech level 8-, or has no population, then there is no laboratory. A research lab may be operated under the control of the government, or it may be privately operated.

Let's assume a system where the mainworld ("Alpha") has no population [and neither do the other worlds]. I cannot have a research world on a world/satellite in the sytem ("Beta").
Hypothetically for argument's sake, if Beta was inhabited and Alpha was not, I still cannot have a research base. (I know that's not possible, but I point it out just as a thought-experiment example to help explain my confusion)

Military Base indicates that the world of satellite has a military force stationed on it. The military force is generally non-naval: it is an army or marine troop establishment. For a military base to be present, throw 12+; DM + 1 if main world population 8+; DM +2 if atmosphere equals main world atmosphere. If no population, or if main world is poor, then no base is present. Often a military base can be noted with the symbol M in the base column of the statistics for the system, as well as with a comment in the remarks area.

Consider the system mentioned above. If Alpha is inhabited, but Beta is not, I cannot have a military base on Beta. If Alpha is NOT inhabited, but Beta IS inhabited, I can have a military base on Beta.


The discrepancy makes no sense to me, because I can't fathom why the game designers would have made such a distinction. Does anyone else read it this way? Errata, perchance?

Considering it, I see two possible modifications/"re-readings" of the rules:
A) Provided the mainworld is inhabited, ANY world can possess a research lab or military base, given the appropriate die roll, whether that world is inhabited, itself.
B) Regardless of the mainworld's status, NO world may possess a research lab or military base unless it has a resident population of its own.


Thoughts?
-asp

 

[Timerover51]

There are Imperial research labs in the Spinward Marches, so those worlds would give you a basis for what you could use. And in the Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society, there are a lot of examples of company research labs mentioned. Look through those, and I suspect that you will find a lot of exceptions to the rules.

I go with, if I need a research lab or some other facility, I put it where I need it.

 

[MCEvans]

I view it this way-
A Research Station is not self sustaining it needs a populous support
A Military Base can (and usually is) supported either self or through supply runs and in the case you brought up I would view the base for training or guarding and would be best if there was no civilian pop around.

 

[Timerover51]

I view it this way-
A Research Station is not self sustaining it needs a populous support

The research stations currently maintained by a wide range of nations on Antarctica have populous support? They are at least as difficult to supply as would a base in another stellar system, if not more difficult, as there is a narrow window for ships to get to then. I would argue that it is much easier to supply a research facility than it is a military base.

A Military Base can (and usually is) supported either self or through supply runs and in the case you brought up I would view the base for training or guarding and would be best if there was no civilian pop around.

Have you ever been in a isolated military base with no surrounding civilian community? Adak comes immediately to mind in the real world. Most military bases are heavily dependent on local purchase for consumable items and without a civilian area for recreation and family living areas, tours tend to be short, which is highly disruptive to the cohesiveness of a military unit.

 

[Icosahedron]

Two things to bear in mind, IMO:

The population is a major factor in main world determination - if there are two inhabitable worlds in a system, and only one of them is inhabited, that is the main world.

Rule #1: The Referee trumps the rule book. If you want a base there, put it there.

 

[altasilvapuer]

Icosahedron, I realize that if world A is inhabited and world B is uninhabited, then A is the main world, regardless of whatever else happens. I do the long-form generation, so main world selection happens only after population rolls have been made for all planets. My main purpose for that particular example was for a hypothetical thought experiment. In Schrödinger's famous thought experiment about a cat, you wouldn't actually do that with a cat. It's just a thought experiment. Poor example? Perhaps; it's early in this time zone.

MCEvans, your arguments actually imply the population requirements for research labs and military bases being the opposite of what's in the rule book, to my reading. Just fyi.

To all those saying "The referee trumps the rule book," I hear you. I have been trumping the rule book. But many systems I generate hold no personal connection, yet. Oftentimes, a roll that makes absolutely NO sense can be a great springboard for backstory, though, because now I have to explain it. So I like trying to figure out what the rules are actually saying and give a go at implementing them as-is. Then if there's a major problem, I trump the rule book. I have to do less balancing that way.

-asp

 

[rancke]

Outposts is one of the features that I think Traveller doesn't handle very well.

I originally wrote 'outposts and other low-population worlds', but IMO those are practically synonymous. A sovereign low-population world seems to me to be a contradiction in terms, because a low-population world is not able to survive on its own.

(Oh, I can imagine a few situations where a low-population world was formally regarded as sovereign; but not nearly as often as they crop up in Traveller. IMO 99 out of 100 (or perhaps 35 out of 36 ) low-population worlds ought to have government type 6.)

Anyway, a scientific outpost has to be supported from some other place. Someone always have to pay. The rule you quote seem to be thinking of outposts set up by the local mainworld and to be there to prevent outposts without a local society to support it. If you want an outpost in a system without a mainworld capable of supporting one, you have to make it an outpost of an outsystem group (in which case the outpost technically becomes the mainworld, having the biggest (often only) population in the system).


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

My misread on OP.
But Research Lab & Military Base are subordinate facilities determined after the main world is established (LBB6 pg24).

 

[CosmicGamer]

What is the difference between a Research Station, Research Lab, Research Facility, Research Installation, Research Vessel, Research Space Station, Orbital Unmanned Research Satellite, Scientific Outpost, Unmanned Outpost, ....

If the rules indicate that a population, or a certain tech level, or government type is needed for X to exist, then I'd consider X to be part of said requirement and not something established by outside influences.

Research Laboratory indicates that a scientific establishment has been located on the world or satellite. For a research laboratory to be present, throw 11+; DM+2 if main world tech level is 10+. If the main world has tech level 8-, or has no population, then there is no laboratory. A research lab may be operated under the control of the government, or it may be privately operated.

"under the control of the government, or it may be privately operated" and "has no population, then there is no laboratory" to me, indicate that in this case a Research Laboratory is a facility run by locals. This does not deny the possibility of something operated by others.

 

[McPerth]

IMHO, this discussion is greatly related to the ones about IN bases (or A rated starports) in unpupulated worlds, and mainly came to: what is considered a world's population?

I can foresee research stations being in uninhabited planets or satellites, either for secrecy, danger in the investigations, or other reasons. That doesn't mena there is no people working there, but can they be considered as world's population, or just temporary population that census places somewhere else?

As told in other threads that treated the fact of facilities in systems whose populations would not support them, I believe that if all those temporary inhabitants where counted in the population, then pop stats for planets (mostly for low population planets) would be quite changeable, and planetary stats in Traveller don't use to change, and when they do it's for a major reason (e.g. MT:HT). So, my taking is that most people in those facilities are censed elsewhere, and not counted in system population.

 

[Enoki]

I could see either (at the ref's decision) being in an otherwise deserted system. Nothing like the players stumbling onto "Area 51" or some top secret corporate lab doing illegal stuff.... o: This follows with the party being :toast:

 

[robject]

This is fun stuff. However, I suspect that the original rules just weren't thought out completely thoroughly. I tend to agree with Hans' viewpoint on this one, too: low population worlds are synonymous with some sort of dependent base.

I tend to think that unless otherwise specified, low pop worlds are either colonies or corporate concerns, where a system or corporation owns or operates mines, factories, labs, or whatnot. Government facilities (research stations and military bases for example) would have a code (R, M, etc).

OF course, that's MTU, not OTU.

 

[McPerth]

Another thing we must think about, is that, at least for Imperial Ressearch Stations, if they are counted among the system pop, system's TL should be at minimum 15 (and, at least in MT, where TL16 systems are not unheard about, 16 for some of them), as they represent the cutting edge ressearch, and so they sure have the most advanced facilities.

 

[rancke]

Another thing we must think about, is that, at least for Imperial Ressearch Stations, if they are counted among the system pop, system's TL should be at minimum 15 (and, at least in MT, where TL16 systems are not unheard about, 16 for some of them), as they represent the cutting edge ressearch, and so they sure have the most advanced facilities.

Only if the personnel is the only population of the world.

Also, by one of the canonical definitions of TL (TL is level of local manufacturing capability), a research station would (or at least should) have a TL of 0, since it would be incapable of manufacturing any of its equipment. That one applies to almost all outposts, not just research outposts, which is why my own defintion of TL is "the level of technology used by a major portion of the population".


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Only if the personnel is the only population of the world.

Also, by one of the canonical definitions of TL (TL is level of local manufacturing capability), a research station would (or at least should) have a TL of 0, since it would be incapable of manufacturing any of its equipment. That one applies to almost all outposts, not just research outposts, which is why my own defintion of TL is "the level of technology used by a major portion of the population".

If the personnel is not most of the population of the world, then the problem presented by the OP does not exist, as I understand it.

Aside from that, I agree with you

 

[rancke]

If the personnel is not most of the population of the world, then the problem presented by the OP does not exist, as I understand it.

Oh. Right. But the OP was about locally supported research stations, I believe. I can't remember any Imperial research stations that weren't on well-populated worlds (though I could be wrong about that). And IIRC very few, if any, of them are on TL15 worlds. Research Station Gamma is on Vanejen, a TL5 world.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

Only if the personnel is the only population of the world.

Also, by one of the canonical definitions of TL (TL is level of local manufacturing capability), a research station would (or at least should) have a TL of 0, since it would be incapable of manufacturing any of its equipment. That one applies to almost all outposts, not just research outposts, which is why my own defintion of TL is "the level of technology used by a major portion of the population".


Hans

If this is correct how can you have a class A or B starport on a world of less than TL 10+? There are lots of examples of that..... o:

 

[Cryton]

If this is correct how can you have a class A or B starport on a world of less than TL 10+? There are lots of examples of that..... o:

Outside agency built it (ie the Third Imperium among other)

 

[rancke]

If this is correct how can you have a class A or B starport on a world of less than TL 10+? There are lots of examples of that..... o:

The technology for starports on low- and medium tech worlds would have to be imported. This (importing tech) is already the case, since all ships can have annual maintenance performed at any Class A or B starport, which means that, for example, a TL15 ship can be maintained at a Class B starport on a TL9 world. This would require import of TL15 spare parts.

Incidentally, this is related to the biggest problem with all the canonical definitions of tech level. None of the distinguish between the ability to manufacture something and the ability to maintain it.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Incidentally, this is related to the biggest problem with all the canonical definitions of tech level. None of the distinguish between the ability to manufacture something and the ability to maintain it.

And also to the biggest problem with all the canonical definitions of population. It's not described if only inhabitants (what we'd call today citizens, those calling it home) are counted or transient people (those who may be there even for some years, but who call home elswhere) is too.