Psionics and the laws of physics

[dalthor]

We'll start off simple. (Yeah, right)

I'm in an aircraft, nap of earth flight, 500 kph. Dead ahead of me looms an obstacle 300 meters higher than my current altitude. I have Psionics-8, Teleport-12, and Direct-14. Direct means I can teleport an object I am in contact with.

I want to teleport the plane (and all contents) 1000 meters straight up.

To Teleport
Range (nD) < Constant + Direct - Size

where range will be 1000 meters, or 5d. Constant is Teleport(12), Direct is 14, and size mod is -6.

So --

To Teleport
Range (nD) < Constant + Direct - Size
5d < 12 + 14 - 6, or 5d < 20

I roll, and successfully teleport straight up 1000 meters.

NOW, what happens to my velocity? Does the plane stop dead as a result of the teleport, or maintain its original speed and vector??

Note that I assume it maintains the original vector and speed, barring no other actions.

Could I stop it dead if I so desired, i.e. bleed off all speed? What about the kinetic energy?

Personally, if I bled off all velocity I'd expect to take some effect at 1d per speed rating, for example 8d of damage at 500kph to 0kph. This is based on the temperature change discussed on page 531, though that is actually related to altitude change.

See also the SPEED table on page 295, which has damage based on impact in dice per ton.

Now assume the act of teleporting stops it dead. Where did that original energy go - into a heat sink of some sort if available, or direct damage to the aircraft?

Thoughts appreciated!

 

[Licheking]

Keep it simple and assume it continues with previous vector and velocity.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Keep it simple and assume it continues with previous vector and velocity.

I agree with velocity.

Yes for vector but with a a possible twist. Pun intended.

How about orientation? 3D relativity and not just forward.

Orientation of the plane in relation to the planet has changed as it's gone up 1000 meters. So the thrust vector and even momentum vector has changed somewhat in relation to the planet. It isn't dropping downward to get beck to it's original vector in relationship to the planet, is it?

If one was standing still in a in a room facing north could they teleport to the other side of the room and face south? Can one rotate or otherwise change orientation?

So maybe the aircraft might have a similar momentum from prior to teleport but there could be a new thrust vector from the engines being applied after teleportation.

 

[McPerth]

DISCLAIMER. Never read T5, so my answer comes from earlier versions, and so might be changed by T5 rules.

Just remember that aside from the momentum, you must keep the energy conservation if physic laws are t boe maintained, and rising a plane 1000 m up will give it quite a lot of extra potential energy...

In earlier version, this would mean to lower the temperature of the tepelorted body (how much so should have to be calculated).

 

[CosmicGamer]

In earlier version, this would mean to lower the temperature of the tepelorted body (how much so should have to be calculated).

And if one goes in this direction, should be based on the world and other localized environmental issues too, no?

I'm no science expert but from what I do know I just never quite understood why elevation was an issue with temperature and nobody that does know more than me has been able to explain it in a way that made sense to me. Sorry, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

 

[Lycanorukke]

I just never quite understood why elevation was an issue with temperature and nobody that does know more than me has been able to explain it in a way that made sense to me.

It works on the conservation of energy.
Gravitational Potential Energy = mass x gravity x height change.

If something teleports straight up, you are increasing its potential energy (it is moving away from the centre of the planets gravitational field) hence creating an energy deficit. Now this deficit has to be cancelled out by getting energy from somewhere else, and that somewhere the the latent heat of the object being teleported. So the teleported object cools down.

If something teleports straight down (moving closer to the planets gravitational centre), you are reducing its potenital energy and creating an energy surplus. To get rid of the extra energy you have to dump it somewhere - and hence the object being teleported heats up.

If something is just teleported horizontally, there is no height change and thus no energy increase/decrease.

Example.

An 80 kilogram human is teleported 1 kilometer straight up on a 1G world

m = mass
g = gravity
h = height change
T = temperature

PE = mgh (potential energy)
Q=mcT (heat equation)

Since all the PE is turning into heat
PE=Q
mcT=mgh
Cancel m
cT=gh
T = gh/c

m = 80kg
g = 10m/s^2
C = specific heat of water is 4186 J/kg C (a human is mostly water)
h = -1000m (height is increasing hence -ve)

T= 10*-1000/4186
T = -2.3 C

So the object drops about 2.5 celcius.

Average human = 37.5 C core body Temp
Hypothermia (mild) < 35 C
Heat Stroke (critcal) > 40 C

So the unfortunate teleporter suffers hypothermic shock. (aka damage)
On the plus side, any Zho commandos teleporting in from orbit would arrive resembling over cooked sausages.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm no science expert but from what I do know I just never quite understood why elevation was an issue with temperature and nobody that does know more than me has been able to explain it in a way that made sense to me. Sorry, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

Well it looks like Lycanorukke beat me to the post, but since I spent all this time typing it up, I'll post it anyway.

Because Energy is a conserved quantity (i.e. it can neither be created nor destroyed so it has to be accounted for - it has to "go somewhere").

In physics, whenever an object is within a force field that it "feels" (i.e. mass in a gravitational field, electric charge in an electric field, etc), it has potential energy that is based on its distance from the source of the field. *

* - For simplicity, I am here specifically looking at the restricted case of a purely distance-based central force field, which is what we are interested in for the purposes of this discussion.

​

The TOTAL ENERGY OF THE SYSTEM is the sum of the Potential Energy plus the Kinetic Energy. So for example, if an object is dropped from a certain height, at the moment it is released, ALL of its energy is Potential Energy, and NONE of it is Kinetic Energy (i.e. it is not moving at all). As it falls, the Potential Energy is converted to Kinetic Energy as it moves and accelerates. When it strikes the ground, all of the Potential Energy has been converted to Kinetic Energy (since the object is now moving at its final speed as it strikes), and the Potential Energy is now zero and the Kinetic Energy for the system is at maximum. The TOTAL ENERGY is COSNTANT throughout the motion of the object (Potential plus Kinetic).

Generalizing from this, a given gravitational field can be said to have a Gravitational Potential at any point in space. It is defined as the Potential Energy that a test-object of "unit mass" would have if it were placed at that altitude or distance from the gravitational source. Therefore, the higher an object is placed in a gravitational field, the greater its Gravitational Potential (i.e. the greater Potential Energy the object would have if it were placed there).

So, if you magically move an object upward due to psionics, it has increased in Potential Energy, because it is at a higher Gravitational Potential. That energy has to be taken from somewhere. So the temperature of your teleported object will drop. (The reverse is also true - teleporting "downward" will decrease your potential energy and it will be "released" as an increase in the object's temperature).

 

[dalthor]

Thank you for the inputs so far!

There is a psionic ability that allows the channeling of heat/cold, and the text specifically mentions heat sinks, as well as temperature changes with altitude. I'm also going to apply that basic premise to speed.

So, in a gravity field (or well) some accommodation must be made for the increase or decrease of heat...

BTW, anybody remember "Battlefield Earth" and teleportation drives??? L. Ron Hubbard had some interesting ideas in that book. Possible hooks here...just saying.

Will continue to dig deeper, and go from there.

 

[whulorigan]

There is a psionic ability that allows the channeling of heat/cold, and the text specifically mentions heat sinks, as well as temperature changes with altitude. I'm also going to apply that basic premise to speed.

So, in a gravity field (or well) some accommodation must be made for the increase or decrease of heat...

BTW, anybody remember "Battlefield Earth" and teleportation drives???

As a complete aside (and since you alluded to the topic ), that is the reason why in Star Trek the Transporters have a "Transporter Buffer".

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thank you, but that still doesn't explain it all. I'm not into doing all the math but I understand the concepts.

I can understand that an objects potential energy changes with it's distance to another object with mass. I don't deny that. I understand that energy transforms from one thing to another and isn't "created or destroyed". I do follow all this.

Typically an objects elevation is increased by exerting energy to elevate it. Lets say a spring, your arm, whatever. The objects potential energy goes up and the springs potential energy goes down or you burn calories throwing it. The potential energy of the object changes but the object has not. The energy change is via an external energy converted to a change in the objects energy potential. So I agree that there is energy to account for when elevating an object.

Now, decreasing an objects height. It doesn't really take any energy to drop an object and have it fall so why are they saying that there is energy that needs to be accounted for? Typically I guess a falling object loses it's potential energy as it's height decreases and this is converted into momentum energy, right? As it loses potential energy it gains velocity. When teleporting, the object has no momentum so the potential energy must go somewhere. I follow this too.

So if Traveller rules say that the energy is translated into heat energy the teleporter needs to give off or absorb, I can understand that.

I just never quite understood why elevation was an issue with temperature

Let me rephrase. What I can't understand is why there is a temperature issue only with the vertical changes and not horizontal.

An object at rest tends to stay at rest. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. I've heard this too. You'd have to exert force to move it horizontally. Then force again to stop it. Where is the accounting for this energy?

Maybe what I'm missing is the math and equations showing a comparison between the energy needed to move a mass horizontally vs vertically?

 

[Lycanorukke]

The catch is that teleporting *bamfs* the object between point A and point B without actually ‘moving’ it. No movement (change in momentum) means no kinetic energy is applied/removed.

The increase potential energy (lift an object up) we have to apply kinetic energy using rockets, muscles, etc. Something must push the object to the higher energy state (Kinetic energy is converted to potential energy). To decrease potential energy the object has to move to a lower height, and hence the object must release kinetic energy (i.e.: the object must move). Teleporting allows the object to jump from point A to B without having its momentum changed. No kinetic energy is add/removed to the system.

So in both cases, we have a problem with Kinetic energy, either too much or too little. Where do we dump/obtain the necessary kinetic energy to balance the numbers?

Remember what ‘temperature’ is. Temperature is the vibration of molecules – hot molecules vibrate fast, cold ones move slowly. And movement is kinetic energy. So to balance the sums we suck kinetic energy out of the molecules, slowing them down and hence lowering their temperature, or dump the energy into the molecules, speeding them up thus increasing their temperature.

Why isn’t there a change in potential energy when the object moves horizontally? Because a change in potential energy requires a change in height (relative to a gravity field). The object *bamfs* from point A to point B but as there is no height change, no additional energy is required to balance the gravitic potential energy equations. If the object was teleporting around in outer space and there was no gravity gradient, hence no height , and thus there would be no heat/cold problem.

Where the *bamf* energy comes from is the psionic teleport power (however that works).
The energy for _initiating_ the teleport (psi points) is not the same as the energy _consequence_ of the teleport (heat problems).

But there still is a problem with horizontal teleporting very different from vertical teleporting.

At the equator of the earth, an object is moving at 1670kph (~463.8m/s). Teleport 100km north and the earth is rotating at 1669.5kph (~463.7 m/s). If you are not careful you will arrive and faceplant into a tree at 0.1m/s, or just stumble and fall over. If a person walked there the difference would be adjusted for as they walked (spread over time) as opposed to hitting the object all at once (a teleport).

With a Trek transporter, if they just beamed someone onto the surface from space without adjusting horizontal energy problems, the person would suddenly experience the full force of this.
Orbital speed ~ 7860 m/s (at around 300km)
Equator speed ~ 463m/s

Captain Picard materialises on planet X just to slams into a wall at about 7.5 kilometres per second. *Splat*

 

[Draconian]

The RINGWORLD RPG already did these calculations of temperature change with altitude change from teleportation, in connection to a teleporting technology called the transfer booth (and the even more advanced stepping disks of the Pupeteer race). For human transfer booths, it costs a tenth-star (a dime) to teleport anywhere on Earth.

 

[Orr]

In This Thread: People overthinking what is a simple issue.

Has anyone stopped to think that the energy shuffling teleportation requires is part of the teleportation process? Or would you rather spend gaming time determining how many degrees C are gained and lost due changes in altitude and latitude while your players wander off looking for pizza?

Many years ago I read a fantasy series called the Belgariad by David Eddings. It was typical in many ways and not so typical in others. I remember being amused when the characters actually stopped to cook meals for example.

In the books, a teenager learns he's part of a family which can perform magic and happily trots off to play with his new found skill. He decides to move a huge rock, gathers his will do to so, and finds himself shoulder deep in the forest loam. Several hours later after he'd been found and dug out, an older wizard explains how you need to brace yourself magically while moving large objects. Just simple Newtonian physics that the young man had no idea about. IIRC, the older wizard also makes some remark about protecting magically protecting your hand from fire before throwing a magic fireball. Again, simple common sense precautions that people rarely seem to think about in fantasy fiction.

Similarly, someone trained in teleportation would also know that they need to account for the various changes energy due to changes in altitude and latitude. They'd disperse or borrow whatever energy their teleporting requires just as the wizards in the Belgariad would brace themselves magically before moving a boulder.

Such energy shunting is done mechanically in Larry Niven's various short stories featuring mechanical teleportation and there's no real reason not to assume such shunting isn't done psionically as part of psionic teleportation in Traveller.

Unless that is you enjoy wasting time at the gaming table doing all the math while your players twiddle their thumbs.

 

[Licheking]

Which brings me nicely back to my point, keep it simple. Most of T5 is simple, plug and play Makers, tables for everything and only the occasional formula to show how the results of various tables were arrived at. So why over complicate the game, assume that part of the power deals with and eliminates the need to worry about these little niggling problems like physics and reality after all its a power that allows a sophont to move an object with his mind how does it generate the energy to do that?

If we were playing MT then fair enough, it was more detailed and definitely more grounded in reality and physics, but even then its psionics should they be explained, its magic for sci-fi.

 

[CosmicGamer]

In This Thread: People overthinking what is a simple issue.

I'd 100% agree with you but

there's no real reason not to assume such shunting isn't done psionically as part of psionic teleportation in Traveller.

I don't know about T5; some versions of the Rules state that vertical teleporting is limited by the bodys' ability to handle the energy changes. No shunting to the ground or air or whatever.

 

[whulorigan]

Has anyone stopped to think that the energy shuffling teleportation requires is part of the teleportation process?
.
.
.

Similarly, someone trained in teleportation would also know that they need to account for the various changes energy due to changes in altitude and latitude. They'd disperse or borrow whatever energy their teleporting requires . . .

Such energy shunting is done mechanically in Larry Niven's various short stories featuring mechanical teleportation and there's no real reason not to assume such shunting isn't done psionically as part of psionic teleportation in Traveller.

Which brings me nicely back to my point, keep it simple. Most of T5 is simple, plug and play Makers, tables for everything and only the occasional formula to show how the results of various tables were arrived at. So why over complicate the game, assume that part of the power deals with and eliminates the need to worry about these little niggling problems like physics and reality after all its a power that allows a sophont to move an object with his mind how does it generate the energy to do that?

If we were playing MT then fair enough, it was more detailed and definitely more grounded in reality and physics, but even then its psionics should they be explained, its magic for sci-fi.

Yes, I did think of that actually. And it is certainly a valid approach to suggest that, however psionics works, it takes the energy from the psionic process to compensate for these things (maybe even requiring more/less points depending on what needs to be compensated for). However, it will depend on just how fantastic you want the "flavor" of your psionics to be in your campaign. The comparison to magic in the Belgariad presupposes that psionics is a "science" to the degree that it can be handled the way sorcery is in many fantasy games: namely, that the psion can simply "borrow" energy from some source at will to compensate. It is entirely possible that a psion does not really know how he accomplishes his art, but only that when he does certain things, certain other things happen. He may have no control over drawing energies from other sources to compensate.

Telekinesis and teleportation are already two of the more powerful and "flashy" of the psionic arts. Suggesting that all the energy is simply compensated for will make psionics seem even more "magical" than it already is (and this may be fine for many people's campaigns; YMMV). But having psionics NOT account for the energy-changes actually helps put limits on exactly how far and/or to what degree the art of teleportation can be used. Teleporting up/down (or to certain extreme distances beyond a certain limit) may require special heat/chill suits (which have mass that needs to be teleported, etc). Accounting for these things tends to give the existence of the more extreme forms of the psionic art a little more of a believable and "limited" feel (at least in my opinion).

But as I said, YMMV.

EDIT: And as CosmicGamer said: Earlier rulesets did make the physics considerations explicit.

 

[Licheking]

And yet the Zhodani Commando units teleport aboard ships all the time, without displacing heat (as far as I'm aware) or they would be easily detected by internal sensors on ships, which they aren't. Hence why Imperial protocol when the possibility of dealing with Zhodani commandos comes up, everyone patrols in pairs and everyone has to stay on the move so that there is very little empty space to teleport into, and once spotted can be reported.

Maybe Zhodani Battledress has special heat sinks to deal with this, but i have yet to see any mention of this in T5 or elsewhere, and i have read the old Zhodani race book.

 

[McPerth]

And yet the Zhodani Commando units teleport aboard ships all the time, without displacing heat (as far as I'm aware) or they would be easily detected by internal sensors on ships, which they aren't. Hence why Imperial protocol when the possibility of dealing with Zhodani commandos comes up, everyone patrols in pairs and everyone has to stay on the move so that there is very little empty space to teleport into, and once spotted can be reported.

Maybe Zhodani Battledress has special heat sinks to deal with this, but i have yet to see any mention of this in T5 or elsewhere, and i have read the old Zhodani race book.

Where it is said that they teleport aboard ships (or at least from ship to ship)? IIRC they only use teleport infiltration in ground opperations, as teleporting from one ship to another would mean a terrific momentum change (enough to, at least, dmage them), unless vectors are carefully matched (something only posible if both ships collaborate on it).

As I understand it, this could be used for transfer among friendly ships, but never for boarding (as they would neet to know the destination and vectors to be closely matched), and less so for orbital landing (as told before in Lycanorukke's post 6, this same thread).

 

[whulorigan]

And yet the Zhodani Commando units teleport aboard ships all the time, without displacing heat (as far as I'm aware) or they would be easily detected by internal sensors on ships, which they aren't. Hence why Imperial protocol when the possibility of dealing with Zhodani commandos comes up, everyone patrols in pairs and everyone has to stay on the move so that there is very little empty space to teleport into, and once spotted can be reported.

Maybe Zhodani Battledress has special heat sinks to deal with this, but i have yet to see any mention of this in T5 or elsewhere, and i have read the old Zhodani race book.

I do seem to remember special Zhodani Combat Armor from somewhere that mentions something to this effect (I think - I could be misremembering). It might be in MgT Supplements or GURPS Traveller.

But I can't check at the moment. If someone else has better recollection than me, please feel free to interject.

 

[whulorigan]

Zhodani Guards Armour / Teleportation Suits

And yet the Zhodani Commando units teleport aboard ships all the time, without displacing heat (as far as I'm aware) or they would be easily detected by internal sensors on ships, which they aren't. Hence why Imperial protocol when the possibility of dealing with Zhodani commandos comes up, everyone patrols in pairs and everyone has to stay on the move so that there is very little empty space to teleport into, and once spotted can be reported.

Maybe Zhodani Battledress has special heat sinks to deal with this, but i have yet to see any mention of this in T5 or elsewhere, and i have read the old Zhodani race book.

I do seem to remember special Zhodani Combat Armor from somewhere that mentions something to this effect (I think - I could be misremembering). It might be in MgT Supplements or GURPS Traveller.

But I can't check at the moment. If someone else has better recollection than me, please feel free to interject.

OK I have found the sources:

GT: Alien Races 1, p.142:

Psibernetic Web [GURPS TL11 / Traveller TL 14]
This device is built into Zhodani Guard's Combat Armor and Battledress. It enables the user to Autoteleport without without counting the weight of the suit . . . Similar systems can be added to other armor . . .

MgT: Alien Module 4: Zhodani, p.76-77:

Teleportation Suit (TL12)
This device can be integrated into a suit of armour or worn as a form-fitting body suit. It rapidly cools or warms the body after a teleport, minimising damage from sudden energy gains or losses . . . [The suit] allows the character to jump up to 600 meters, up or down, in a single teleport, or up to 10 kilometres in a single hour when using successive jumps. . . .


Guards Combat Armour (TL13)
. . . has been further improved to enhance the psionic activity of the wearer. . . [and functions as Teleportation Suit above].