planetary police jurisdictions

[Carlobrand]

So your threat assesment consists of what is the best that can possibly happen?

My threat assessment is what's most likely to happen, same as any government on a budget. Ico mentioned the police car and the 40mm grenade launcher. Good example as any. There's always that possibility that Arab terrorists might make some dramatic play in downtown Albuquerque, or that the Chinese or Russians have started to fund domestic terrorists, or that the Mexican Mafia might come to rob a bank. However, the Albuquerque Police Department doesn't drive around in a fleet of cars armored against 40mm grenades; they buy cars that meet the issues they commonly run into, then buy a couple of specialty vehicles like armored SWAT-style units to step in if the regular units find themselves in over their heads.

The ship's boat is cheap and - at 6g - very effective in the role, perfect for any port trying to keep within a budget. I wouldn't fight a war in one, but they're good "coast guard cutters".

Ico's 10-t idea's interesting, but the CT 10-ton fighter costs only a couple of million less than the ship's boat and has only a ton of spare space; the 13.7 tons of extra space on the 30-ton boat makes it useful for rescue work, so I prefer the ship's boat in the orbital patrol role for its versatility - I only need the one type for both rescue and armed patrol.

HG2 = High Guard second edition. Chameleon is in FASA ACS1..

Thanks for that. I tend to think of that as the official High Guard and the previous one as a mistake. I don't have anything from FASA though.

No, if cargo is inspected at all and which a fairly small amount actually is, it happens in port.

You're free to do what you want in your universe. If you decide cargo is rarely inspected and then only "a fairly small amount," then cargo is rarely inspected and then only "a fairly small amount." If I decide that a competent class-A starport in a frontier sector troubled by Zhodani-backed Ine Givar terrorists will consistently do pre-inspections at least thoroughly enough to be sure an H-bomb or some tailored virus isn't going to wreck things, then my customs folk are going to do pre-inspections.

In my universe, there's effective bureaucracy ... in some places, and ineffective bureaucracy in some places, corrupt bureaucracy in some places, and little or no bureaucracy in some places. Regina Highport does not function like the class-C starport at Menorb - and it's makes those class-E's feel so much more pleasant by comparison.

You mean like today where there is no control? Can't say I have EVER been checked for diseases at customs. Though I think 3000 years from now their medicine will be a slight bit better.

No control?

I attended a conference in San Diego recently. At the airport, I had to take off shoes, belt, empty my pockets passed through a metal detector and then the full-body scanner thing, my carry-on was x-rayed, as was my checked suitbag, and there was a long list of things I couldn't take. If anything had blipped, I'd have been taken aside and searched physically; heck of a lot of complaints coming from that one, I understand. That was the result of one successful attack by terrorists. Now imagine what I'd have to go through if Al Qaeda actually had the tech to do a germ weapon, or if that flu pandemic threat of a few years back had actually materialized.

And lest you think we just let any old sickie come into the country from abroad, let me point out U.S. law applying to foreigners seeking a visa to come into this country, whether as tourists or on other business. Section 212(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act declares:

"(a) Classes of Aliens Ineligible for Visas or Admission.-Except as otherwise provided in this Act, aliens who are inadmissible under the following paragraphs are ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to be admitted to the United States:

"(1) Health-related grounds. -

"(A) In general.-Any alien-

"(i) who is determined (in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services) to have a communicable disease of public health significance;

"(ii) except as provided in subparagraph (C), seeks admission as an immigrant, or who seeks adjustment of status to the status of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, and who has failed to present documentation of having received vaccination against vaccine-preventable diseases, which shall include at least the following diseases: mumps, measles, rubella, polio, tetanus and diphtheria toxoids, pertussis, influenza type B and hepatitis B, and any other vaccinations against vaccine-preventable diseases recommended by the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices, ..."

I think that's a bit more than "no controls," don't you? But - as before - you can do as your please in your universe.

 

[Dragoner]

My threat assessment is what's most likely to happen...

...on a months long assignment patrolling the outer reaches of the solar system. right.

and not using assets you already have like naval forces.

If you decide cargo is rarely inspected and then only "a fairly small amount," then cargo is rarely inspected and then only "a fairly small amount."

me, the us gov't, what's the difference?

In my universe, there's effective bureaucracy ... in some places

now that's high fantasy

let me point out U.S. law applying to foreigners seeking a visa.....

isn't done at customs

 

[Fritz_Brown]

isn't done at customs

Actually, a visitor who shows up coughing and hacking or showing other signs of "biological distress" *will* get pulled aside by immigration (not customs, no, but the folks who stamp your passport).

And, customs does do inspections for disease vectors, in some cases, on cargo entering the US.

 

[Dragoner]

Scratch what I said earlier about using a couple of SDB's in the Oort Cloud, they would only go to the GG, after that it is done by jump capable ships, 50,000AU is too far even with 6G m drive.

edit: just went and looked in MT Rebellion Sourcebook pg 26:

Colonial squadrons are assigned to the numbered reserve fleets of the subsectors.

So the colonial squadrons, are de facto Imperial as well, thus covering Imperial jurisdiction.

 

[Dragoner]

Actually, a visitor who shows up coughing and hacking or showing other signs of "biological distress" *will* get pulled aside by immigration (not customs, no, but the folks who stamp your passport).

And, customs does do inspections for disease vectors, in some cases, on cargo entering the US.

It's good to hear, I have just never seen them check anyone. Though I think (as I mostly just go between europe and the US) there maybe some schengen zone agreement.

However, it is better to attack diseases where they arise (thus the WHO and such), there are just too many vectors.

edit went and found it in ACS 2:

Named for the first patron of Vilani medicine, the
Kurgulash and her sister ships (Paean, Hippocrates, Aesculapius, Juujed, etc. )
are part of an important program sponsored by the Imperial Interstellar
Scout Service, the Medical Liaison Section of the Contact and Liaison Branch
of the exploration office. According to the order which established this
section in 708, the Medical Liaison Section is charged with the duty of
promoting "the spread of medical knowledge, the support of local medical
authorities, and the treatment of the sick throughout Imperial and extra-lmperial
space."

Sort of like Leinster's Med ship series.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Outside the Kuiper Belt (or Oort Cloud), the Imperium has exclusive jurisdiction.

Outside the Kuiper, ain't nobody got jurisdiction!
(I tend to agree with your layout.)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

However, it is better to attack diseases where they arise (thus the WHO and such), there are just too many vectors.

It might be better if your goal is eradication of the disease. However, if your goal is just to keep it out of your jurisdiction, then it's easier to 'inspect' everything that arrives. And, there aren't quite so many vectors in the OTU as laid out. If you agree with the OTU that every system has one starport, and if you posit rules that require everyone to go through that starport, then your inspection capability goes up significantly. Yes, you will have looooong lines, but that's the price you pay for keeping your world clean.

Now, RP-wise, that situation leads to: smuggling attempts, bribes to avoid lines, "confiscation" of high-profit cargo by corrupt authorities, possible riots depending on the types of people in those lines, etc.

 

[Dragoner]

It might be better if your goal is eradication of the disease. However, if your goal is just to keep it out of your jurisdiction, then it's easier to 'inspect' everything that arrives. And, there aren't quite so many vectors in the OTU as laid out. If you agree with the OTU that every system has one starport, and if you posit rules that require everyone to go through that starport, then your inspection capability goes up significantly. Yes, you will have looooong lines, but that's the price you pay for keeping your world clean.

Now, RP-wise, that situation leads to: smuggling attempts, bribes to avoid lines, "confiscation" of high-profit cargo by corrupt authorities, possible riots depending on the types of people in those lines, etc.

It interferes with trade to a huge amount and on a high commerce world like Regina, you would need like a few million inspectors. Same reasons most cargo isn't inspected coming into the US.

I think worlds aren't too afraid of disease because of medical scouts and such.

 

[Icosahedron]

Ico's 10-t idea's interesting, but the CT 10-ton fighter costs only a couple of million less than the ship's boat and has only a ton of spare space; the 13.7 tons of extra space on the 30-ton boat makes it useful for rescue work, so I prefer the ship's boat in the orbital patrol role for its versatility - I only need the one type for both rescue and armed patrol.

Just as an aside, since you expressed an interest, I don't use the OTU 10dT fighter, I scratch-designed most of my own ships from HG2 since the official ones seemed to be broken more often than not...

QG-0106A11-110000-10001-0 Crew 1 or 2, passengers 2-8 (2xELB), Cargo 0.3dT(4.2cu m), Fuel 1dT, Agility 6, TL15. I can't locate the price just now, but IIRC it was around 10Mcr, depending on weapon choice.

"The Patrol Boat uses the ubiquitous 10dT wedge hull*. It has a nominal crew of 2 but can be operated by a single pilot. Two flight couches are fitted along with 2 ELBs. These may be used for 2 additional officers or for up to 8 rescuees or prisoners. In addition there is 0.3dT of cargo space. The ELBs are easily removed if more cargo space is required, or additional couches or low berths can be fitted. The patrol boat is expected to survive a limited firefight with civilian small craft and is therefore armoured to Factor 1 and bears a hardpoint. Its primary function is as an orbital range patrol vessel for police and coastguard services."

For interplanetary ranges requiring overnight accommodation I, too, use a 30dT design with small craft cabins, but for short duration work, the 10dT craft is considerably cheaper and 4.2 cu m of storage space is more than enough for most daily patrols.

*The 10dT wedge hull is ST-TOS Galileo.

 

[Hyphen]

HG2 = High Guard second edition. Chameleon is in FASA ACS1.

Nasty surprise ship vs most sub-1000dt craft. And sadly broken, unless you house-rule that 500dt allows for one 50dt bay...

(However, this is just a quibble, and nothing to do with your point; please move along, nothing more to see here...)

 

[Carlobrand]

...on a months long assignment patrolling the outer reaches of the solar system. right.

Outer reaches of the solar system? When did my customs agents become responsible for the outer reaches of the solar system? I thought it was clear from the beginning that we were discussing orbital space.

There are logical considerations here, born of the technology implied within the game mechanics:

Planetary police are going to be primarily focused on enforcing law on the planet itself ... Off the surface, there are three broad regions we're debating: 1) the atmospheric envelope (assuming one), 2) the near-orbital region (where grav lifts function normally), and 3) the far-orbit to deep-space region (where grav lifts function at significantly reduced efficiency)...
Most governments will tend to consider their writ to extend to the near-orbit region ... Most actual customs inspection will occur in near orbit for the simple reason that it's a more efficient use of the time of the customs agents ... Most planetary governments will also tend to consider their writ to extend to the far-orbit region - this region is the approach to the planet: ships can't jump in closer, can't safely jump out closer, they have to traverse that 100-diameter space to get to or from the planet. ... The spacecrafts in question would be designed to handle combat with civilian ships and pirates ... but if an honest-to-goodness warship showed up, it would have to retreat and call in naval warcraft.

We've - or at least I've - been talking about the region within 100 diameters of the planet, not "the outer reaches of the solar system."

...and not using assets you already have like naval forces.

Of course I use the assets I have. You need to call out the National Guard, you call out the National Guard - but you don't bring out the National Guard to write traffic tickets or man sobriety checkpoints, you call them out when the situation is beyond the control of local law enforcement.

Either we are having a very fundamental breakdown in communications or you're just being silly. If the former, I'm very sorry, but I don't know how I might have said the thing more clearly. If the latter ... well, that's up to you.

 

[aramis]

Of course I use the assets I have. You need to call out the National Guard, you call out the National Guard - but you don't bring out the National Guard to write traffic tickets or man sobriety checkpoints, you call them out when the situation is beyond the control of local law enforcement.

I've seen NG MP's used for sobriety checkpoints... loaned to the state troopers to provide tech assistance. Used only on the sections of the highway that run through the military reservation, so technically a dodge around the lack of a state of emergency... all the tickets and arrests made by troopers, with the MP's just running field sobriety checks and breathalyzers.

Which brings up another dodge for the TU use... army or marine inspection teams with a local authorized customs agent "team commander".

 

[Dragoner]

Outer reaches of the solar system? When did my customs agents become responsible for the outer reaches of the solar system? I thought it was clear from the beginning that we were discussing orbital space.

No, from the beginning it has been about past the 100D limit, everybody knows that the planetary police forces jurisdiction extends that far.

 

[Carlobrand]

I've seen NG MP's used for sobriety checkpoints... loaned to the state troopers to provide tech assistance. Used only on the sections of the highway that run through the military reservation, so technically a dodge around the lack of a state of emergency... all the tickets and arrests made by troopers, with the MP's just running field sobriety checks and breathalyzers.

Which brings up another dodge for the TU use... army or marine inspection teams with a local authorized customs agent "team commander".

Oooh, fuzzy boundaries. Sounds like a good alternative for those odd little low-pop Class-A/B's like Resten (home of a scout base and very little else), Pixie (home of a naval base and a tiny colony of Vargr), Paya (a naval base supported by a little town of 600 - and maybe a Wal-Mart), and so forth.

No, from the beginning it has been about past the 100D limit, everybody knows that the planetary police forces jurisdiction extends that far.

Uh, no, I was pretty clear about what I was referring to. Evolved from the discussion of using military forces for civilian functions. FreeTrav described a nicely logical jurisdictional map, you responded with something about using cutters being a suicide mission, which I took as advocacy for use of military ships in the 100-D zone. I said ship's boats could generally hold their own or flee, which you took issue with. Since the outer system is generally agreed to be military jurisdiction (SDBs and Imperial Fleet and such) it wouldn't make any sense to talk about what craft the civilian planetary authorities would be using there because - with the exception of little colonies under the planetary government's control - it ain't their jurisdiction.

Tell me we didn't go through all of that simply because we misunderstood each other! Urgh!:rofl:

It interferes with trade to a huge amount and on a high commerce world like Regina, you would need like a few million inspectors. Same reasons most cargo isn't inspected coming into the US....

Imperium's at TL 15. Starports, if I have it right, are Imperial jurisdiction. I'm not 100% clear whether the starports operate orbital customs or the planetary government, or both. I like FreeTrav's description of joint cooperative jurisdiction, but perhaps that's one of the membership negotiating points and depends on the nature of the local government - I can't see some paranoid despot being eager to have someone else controlling his world's orbital region, but a low tech or low pop world (Paya, for example) would be flatly incapable of exercising effective control and might prefer the Starport authorities handle it all. Still, whoever does it and wherever they do it, there are good reasons for having a strong customs system.

Anyway, TL15:
Radiation sensors to detect any improper or dangerous shipments of radioactives (or the occasional terror bomb). Chemical sniffers to detect any chemical indications of irregularities - like a trace of high explosives, or a hint of ammonium nitrate fertilizer in a container that claims to be full of steel ingots. Neural Activity Sensors to pick up stowaways or such things as smuggled parrots. Densitometers evaluated by computers to "map" the cargo container and check for any irregularities that might be revealed that way (like an ancient Lamborghini carefully concealed in a void in a container that's supposed to be full of boxes of computer parts.) I'm seeing a system here that wouldn't be any more time consuming than getting your luggage x-rayed at the airport. One agent with the various equipment should be able to screen 500 to a thousand containers - millions of dollars of trade - in one 8-hour shift, given proper organization. Why do we need millions of inspectors?

No, it's not going to catch every possible smuggled item - it's not going to even catch a tithe of what can be smuggled by clever and careful smugglers - but this idea that cargo inspection is too time-consuming and burdensome at TL-15, based on a comparison with TL-8 Terra, just does not pass the test. Inspection is as much about safety and prevention as about anything else. Stop 20-30 plasma rifles from being smuggled in a 4 dTon container filled with manufacturing equipment? Not likely. Stop a manufacturer from completely flouting import tariffs by filling a 4 dTon container with computer parts and then writing "wheat" on the shipping invoice? Assuredly. Stop a guerrilla from exploding an Oklahoma-City-style fertilizer bomb in your cargo hold while you're trying to make orbit? Most likely, but no guarantees - terrorists can be pretty clever; you can at least make it harder for them.

Can it be defeated? Certainly, by careful thought, planning, and a good deal of luck - or maybe by putting some gold in the right palms. Just as in any era, the smuggler (or terrorist) and the forces of government vie with each other, evolving new strategies to detect and to defeat detection.

Which brings up another point: this is how I see the Traveller Universe. I'm a career government worker with fairly intimate knowledge of how government works, and I'm inclined to bring what I know into the game. That does not mean that how I see it happening is the only right - or even proper - way to play. For one thing, how American bureaucracy works is emphatically NOT how Russian or Chinese or Zimbabwean bureaucracy works, and the Traveller universe is likely to be every bit as diverse. For another, not all players like dealing with that level of "realism", and not all game masters like playing them out; for them, all the extra details are best summarized in two simple words - "you land" - so they can get on with the mind-bending mysteries and the shooting and stuff.

If you don't want the details in the game, don't put the details in the game. Unless you actually have some clever twist that depends on them - like trying to have your players decide whether or not to believe the terrorist who claims there's a 1000-pound bomb in their hold and threatens to detonate it unless they do what he says - your players are not going to mourn the loss.

 

[Dragoner]

Regina is a frontier district, seems a couple of SDB's would provide for a better patrol force, without the automatic need to call for backup if the run into a Zho q-ship running recon out in the oort cloud. It also gives the colonial forces something to do instead of twiddling their thumbs.

This is what I wrote, maybe a bit unclear, but I specifically mentioned the Oort Cloud. So yes it seems silly to me now to send anything even non-jump capable out there, much less a ship's boat on a 50,000 AU one way journey.

Orbital policing would be done by older fighters turned over to the police.

As far as terrorism, disease, etc.; it is probably better to do something proactive rather than wait until they are on your doorstep. If someone is hitting you, hit back, a fortress mentality is self-defeating.

 

[samuelvss]

The ship's boat is cheap and - at 6g - very effective in the role, perfect for any port trying to keep within a budget. I wouldn't fight a war in one, but they're good "coast guard cutters".

I agree, for the reasons you have stated in the rest of the post. Specifically, the various mission packages needed (including cabins, space for seized cargo, couches for boarding parties) can be configured as needed.

Any effective and efficient security measures need to establish a baseline that addresses the actual threat, and then randomly add to these. It also has to allow for escalation of measures at a rate that addresses the potential uncertainties. Therefore, by boats are the workhorses, but they are not alone; patrol cruisers are out to react to any hostilities, along with, at random intervals and locations, various the odd colonial naval vessels. All of this means that trying to shoot it out with the authorities is a very risky proposition. More importantly, the boats don't need to FIGHT anyone, but rather live long enough to tell the tale. Then, the tale (along with disturbingly detailed imagery) rides the X-boat and Naval Courier routes faster than one can run. At some point, even hiding in a backwater, the story will surround the fugitive, and be in every naval and IISS vessel's intel files; potentially, it will be publically released. The information about an attack is potentially far more dangerous to the attacker than the immediate tactical response. The long arm....

I use a 33 1/3 boat in this role IMTU; it uses the same two Boppers ( BPP/R: Ballard Power-Propulsion Replaceables) as a Cutter, Type S or Type A. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=23635

It can also actually carry an odd Bopper or two....
It is possible that some of these off-site inspections could be combined with search and rescue and shuttle services by enterprising contractors. Bureaucracies do vary in effectiveness, composition and methods. IMTU, as in the real world, a prosperous and advnaced state will tend to efficacy; efficiency is a much more touch and go, and will tend to decrease with the size of the state.