I don't know whether Glisten is a full circle belt, and if all of the belt. Within 100 Terra/Vland diameters of important parts, I guess.
planetary police jurisdictions
- Thread starter l_c_jackson
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I don't know whether Glisten is a full circle belt, and if all of the belt. Within 100 Terra/Vland diameters of important parts, I guess.
Being an ex-US military police officer and current US civilian police officer, I completely agree with Hans on this one.
My take on this is as follows:
The world has exclusive jurisdiction on the surface of the mainworld, except for the cession for the Imperial starport, which is under the exclusive control of the Imperial Starport Authority.
If the world has aeronautical capability, the 'surface' includes the COACC zone, which is essentially the atmosphere.
If the world has sustained controlled space capability, the COACC zone extends to 10 diameters.
If the world has off-mainworld permanently-manned outposts or settlements, they have exclusive jurisdiction within the COACC zone of each.
Traffic control to the Imperial Starport is in the Starport Authority's jurisdiction. Traffic control to any non-Imperial spaceport is in the world's jurisdiction.
From outside the COACC zone to 100 diameters, jurisdiction is shared, with the world having primary jurisdiction, and Imperial action to assist at need.
Outside 100 diameters, but within the outer limit of the system's Kuiper Belt (or maybe the Oort Cloud) the Imperium has primary jurisdiction, but will allow the world to assist at need. This could mean that, in the case of a wealthy world with extensive space-based forces, de facto (though not de jure) control of system space is in local hands.
Outside the Kuiper Belt (or Oort Cloud), the Imperium has exclusive jurisdiction.
The world has exclusive jurisdiction on the surface of the mainworld, except for the cession for the Imperial starport, which is under the exclusive control of the Imperial Starport Authority.
If the world has aeronautical capability, the 'surface' includes the COACC zone, which is essentially the atmosphere.
If the world has sustained controlled space capability, the COACC zone extends to 10 diameters.
If the world has off-mainworld permanently-manned outposts or settlements, they have exclusive jurisdiction within the COACC zone of each.
Traffic control to the Imperial Starport is in the Starport Authority's jurisdiction. Traffic control to any non-Imperial spaceport is in the world's jurisdiction.
From outside the COACC zone to 100 diameters, jurisdiction is shared, with the world having primary jurisdiction, and Imperial action to assist at need.
Outside 100 diameters, but within the outer limit of the system's Kuiper Belt (or maybe the Oort Cloud) the Imperium has primary jurisdiction, but will allow the world to assist at need. This could mean that, in the case of a wealthy world with extensive space-based forces, de facto (though not de jure) control of system space is in local hands.
Outside the Kuiper Belt (or Oort Cloud), the Imperium has exclusive jurisdiction.
Sending a lightly armed cutter that is not part of the defense network, is a suicide mission. Regina is a frontier district, seems a couple of SDB's would provide for a better patrol force, without the automatic need to call for backup if the run into a Zho q-ship running recon out in the oort cloud. It also gives the colonial forces something to do instead of twiddling their thumbs.
Lagrange shipping points can also have private armed security.
Lagrange shipping points can also have private armed security.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There are canon examples of worlds in the Imperium that maintain jump capable fleets for planetary defence - these can be drafted by the Imperium as part of the colonial Navy.
Seems to me they are going to be patrolling more than their own system...
Seems to me they are going to be patrolling more than their own system...
Eh?? Sending an unarmed bobbie to deal with bad guys sounds to me like a suicide mission too, but the Brits seem to do well: they have armed men available as back up and send those out instead whenever there's reason to suspect a need for it.
I'd use a 30t. ship's boat, not a cutter. I'd equip it with missile launchers: 6g drives make it hard to hit, and a triple missile launcher keeps his lasers busy if it comes down to a fight. 6g also means I can run away pretty easily and leave him for the heavies to deal with. There's plenty enough configurable space on a ship's boat to give me adequate seating for boarding teams and what-not - and it's just a bit over half the price of a cutter, much more affordable for budget-minded customs agencies.
I agree with FreeTrav's assessment.
They might work in a manner similar to "North Slope Borough Police" - while there is an agency claiming that title, their administrative "reality" is that they are the Barrow PD, but the other villages have invited them to serve the villages, because Alaska state law bars borough level law-enforcement agencies. So NSBPD acts almost like one, but their jurisdiction is limited to those vilalges which opted in, and 25 miles from each one.
I envisage a similar situation for many worlds... neighboring system can afford to pay for the cruisers, and man them, and gets "invited to serve" as the local customs enforcement and system navy, and does so to prevent pirate bases close to home.
Max Weber* defines the state as a community successfully claiming authority on legitimate use of physical force over a given territory; territory was also deemed by Weber to be a prerequisite feature of a state. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.
The state is the source of legitimate physical force. The police and the military are its main instruments, but this does not mean that only public force can be used: private force (as in private security) can be used too, as long as it has legitimacy derived from the state.
The police are a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. Their powers include the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police services of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Police forces are often defined as being separate from military or other organizations involved in the defense of the state against foreign aggressors.
By contrast, A military is an organization authorized by its greater society to use lethal force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats. The military may have additional functions, such as advancing a political agenda, supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.
It seems obvious that either group is defined by what their purpose is, and not by who does it. Police can be civilian, armed forces or even mercenaries. The same for the military, and there are real world examples of each case and examples of each case within the OTU.
As far as PC's are concerned, there really wouldn't be any real differences because responses by police/military would continue to escalate until the required level of force or threat of force is reached. The differences would most likely be organizational as opposed to procedural.
Of course this brings up questions for me concerning the other side of the territory line, the Imperium.
What is the purpose of the Imperial Navy with regard to patrols in allied systems? Are they "supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.", or are they "defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats."
Given that imperialism is defined as "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination", are the member worlds really as allied and pro-Imperium as we've been led to believe? Is the Imperial Navy performing "a form of internal social control" because of that?
Or is the navy simply enforcing Imperial law, thus making them a perfect example of the military performing law enforcement actions and that the Imperium is actually a police state, in which case the territory line is wherever the Imperium tells the member world it is, and that it doesn't apply to Imperial forces at all.
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*Max Weber was a German sociologist, philosopher, and political economist who profoundly influenced social theory, social research, and the discipline of sociology itself.
The state is the source of legitimate physical force. The police and the military are its main instruments, but this does not mean that only public force can be used: private force (as in private security) can be used too, as long as it has legitimacy derived from the state.
The police are a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. Their powers include the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police services of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Police forces are often defined as being separate from military or other organizations involved in the defense of the state against foreign aggressors.
By contrast, A military is an organization authorized by its greater society to use lethal force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats. The military may have additional functions, such as advancing a political agenda, supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.
It seems obvious that either group is defined by what their purpose is, and not by who does it. Police can be civilian, armed forces or even mercenaries. The same for the military, and there are real world examples of each case and examples of each case within the OTU.
As far as PC's are concerned, there really wouldn't be any real differences because responses by police/military would continue to escalate until the required level of force or threat of force is reached. The differences would most likely be organizational as opposed to procedural.
Of course this brings up questions for me concerning the other side of the territory line, the Imperium.
What is the purpose of the Imperial Navy with regard to patrols in allied systems? Are they "supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.", or are they "defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats."
Given that imperialism is defined as "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination", are the member worlds really as allied and pro-Imperium as we've been led to believe? Is the Imperial Navy performing "a form of internal social control" because of that?
Or is the navy simply enforcing Imperial law, thus making them a perfect example of the military performing law enforcement actions and that the Imperium is actually a police state, in which case the territory line is wherever the Imperium tells the member world it is, and that it doesn't apply to Imperial forces at all.
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*Max Weber was a German sociologist, philosopher, and political economist who profoundly influenced social theory, social research, and the discipline of sociology itself.
Another question arising here, if the 100 diameter limit of jurisdiction applies always, is about spaceships used as shuttles among diferent places in the same system.
Let's imagine an Earth flagged shuttle making regular travel among Earth and Mars (I assume Mars is under Earth control as a colony and Imperial control of the system has been raised). It must exit the 100 diameter line for both planets in most its travel. Should a crime being done while in travel, (between the two 100 diameter lines), should it fall into Imperial MOJ jurisdiction or under Earth police one?
I'm not expert in laws, but as I understand international law nowdays, should a crime be commited on a USA flagged plane overflying Canada from New England to Alaska (just to give an example of same country origin, arrival and airplane flag, while foreign jurisdiction airspace), it will fall under USA jurisdiction (I guess federal one, but not sure).
Will the analogy be applicable (if my understanding of nowdays international laws is correct), or it will fall under Imperial law on the basis of the 100 diameter rule?
If the latter is true, then think about the implications of it on Glisten if Aramis was correct in what he said, and about Glisten's intra-belt shuttles...
Let's imagine an Earth flagged shuttle making regular travel among Earth and Mars (I assume Mars is under Earth control as a colony and Imperial control of the system has been raised). It must exit the 100 diameter line for both planets in most its travel. Should a crime being done while in travel, (between the two 100 diameter lines), should it fall into Imperial MOJ jurisdiction or under Earth police one?
I'm not expert in laws, but as I understand international law nowdays, should a crime be commited on a USA flagged plane overflying Canada from New England to Alaska (just to give an example of same country origin, arrival and airplane flag, while foreign jurisdiction airspace), it will fall under USA jurisdiction (I guess federal one, but not sure).
Will the analogy be applicable (if my understanding of nowdays international laws is correct), or it will fall under Imperial law on the basis of the 100 diameter rule?
If the latter is true, then think about the implications of it on Glisten if Aramis was correct in what he said, and about Glisten's intra-belt shuttles...
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Not if you have been to the UK.
Which would be lunched by even the mildest of corsairs.
Customs logically would be done on station.
What game are you playing?
Lets examine, by High Guard. We will start with an assumption: the ship's boat is alert after detecting weapons power-up and targeting sensors focused on it. It came in expecting trouble, after all, and is watching for such a move.
Ship's boat: 30 tons, model 1 computer, 6g drive, no armor, and I've said I'm using a triple missile launcher - Factor 2.
- Verses -
Type P Corsair: 400 tons, model 2 computer, 3g drive, no armor, 3 installed turrets (??), and ... 12 available EP, shall we do triple lasers or keep the power for agility and do triple missiles? Well, let's look at both: options are 3 factor 2 missile launchers, 3 factor 3 lasers, or maybe a single factor 3 missile and a factor 3 laser. That strikes me as optimal.
Game starts at far range. Say the corsair wins initiative. F2 missiles need a 6 to hit, +1 to his roll for his computer advantage, -2 for my size, -6 for my speed: he needs to roll at least ... 13, on 2d6. Uh huh. F3 Lasers need a 7 plus bonuses and penalties, and they're also -1 at long range - no chance there, but maybe they can keep my missiles off him. If he's got the two triple missiles as one battery, his base is a 5 plus bonuses and penalties: he needs a 12, a 1 in 36 shot.
The boat returns fire: F2 missiles need a 6 again, -1 for my computer disadvantage, -1 for his size, and ... depends on his power use and loadout, anything from zip to -3 for agility. I need anything from an 8 to an 11.
The basic picture is he can't hit me unless his ship has his two missile turrets linked as a battery, and then it's a lucky roll. Meanwhile, I can hit him, though there's a 1 in 6 chance his laser will pick off my missiles inbound. He's in trouble.
You could of course argue that I was caught flat-footed. You just have to figure out how a boat expecting the possibility of trouble got caught flat-footed. I won't buy that for missile fire at all: detect a launch, hit the drives. Maybe lasers, but I really don't think he can target those things at that range without me knowing he's doing it. You could argue that he played possum until I was up-close, but if I'm closing I'm also ordering him to turn weapons away from me - the second they move toward me, I hit the drives.
What about Book-2 rules? Harder to simulate by talk, but if I'm careful on approach, I can clearly outrun his missiles; he can't outrun mine. Base to hit with lasers is 8 plus or minus DMs. Other differences mean I'm gonna want a different weapon loadout - let's say a pair of missiles and a sandcaster. (I can outrun missiles and am hopelessly outgunned, so taking a laser isn't sensible)
Computer's real hard to figure too: mine holds 6 programs, of which 2 can be active in any one phase, while his holds 9, of which 3 can be active. Book-2, quality of computer programs makes all the difference, but lets go average for the example. I'm running maneuver-evade 6 (I'm on government business, after all), target, launch, 1 slot left but nothing useful. He's running target, and let's say Predict-5 for the laser, and anti-missile, and 4 slots left. I'm going to assume he's not going to risk his hardware double-firing on a boat he outguns, and he's optimized for no-laser me (no need to evade if he's not taking laser fire), so let's give him ECM; leaves one slot but nothing useful.
Now things get really complicated. I can't simulate movement or range, and this runs very different from High Guard in this size range. His predict cancels some of my evade (+3 vs -5), so base roll with lasers is 10+, with a -2 at 250 thousand klicks and -5 at 500 thousand. He could have a whole lotta lasers, they're nasty here in numbers, but the sand gives them a -3. (He could have missiles, but that delay under the launch rule and my 6g drive gives me a good chance of outrunning them even close in, provided I'm cautious. He wants lasers.)
If first turn's at long range, he can't hit me and I'll run away. If first turn's at medium range, he's got roughly a 1 in 4 chance of chopping me at the start, but after that I'm escaping behind a cloud of sand, some of his lasers are tied up fighting missiles, the others are firing through sand, and I have a very good chance at getting away. I can't outfight him in Book-2, though I might get a lick or two in if I'm aggressive, lucky and take lasers instead of missiles(read: stupidly risking my life against something 13 times my size). Start the fight closer and let him go first, he'll probably (4 chances out of 5) carve me up before I can respond; same would happen to a 400-ton patrol ship though, if the corsair got the first shot in. That's the Book-2 weakness: all other things equal, if for roleplaying reasons the fight starts close in, the guy who shoots first usually takes the win so long as he has enough firepower and luck.
I could as easily call myself the "intruder" and take first move on the argument that I directed him to point his weapons away before I close with him, monitored him doing that via image magnification before closing, keep my own weapons trained and open fire the instant he moves his toward me. In that case, I'm behind sand immediately, he's got about a 1 in 4 chance of taking me out the first turn, and at least two of his turrets are tied up fighting missiles after that, leaving him only about an 8% chance of hitting me each turn and giving me a fair chance of opening range and getting away behind my sand.
I could probably tag him if I had a laser, but of course he'd fly a different set of programs if I had a different weapon mix, and that would also mean more lasers aimed at me. My goal is to live, not to die a hero. I could keep out of his range and drop missiles on him from afar, hoping to get lucky - but we'd just end in a standoff since I don't dare get close while he can shoot down mine until I run out.
So, tactics depend on the game: play High Guard, and my agility dominates you; play Book-2, and I have a very good chance of running away and letting some bigger ship take over the fight as long as I'm careful.
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AND ...
Customs would NOT logically occur at the station. Customs at the station means a chance a stowaway could escape the ship before being found, a disease could get into the station before being discovered, unnoted vermin could crawl from ship to port ... what good is space if you don't use it?
IMTU - at a Class A/B starport - initial starport customs occurs away from the station, in orbit close to but not at the high port. A customs party comes aboard, reviews the ship's medical record and air recirc system for any signs of communicable diseases that might need attention before the ship was allowed to dock; the air system has a number of small traps whose job is to catch samples of any diseases floating in the air during the flight so customs knows what might be aboard and can take action (an antibiotic and a couple day's quarantine usually being sufficient to render the occupants at least noninfectious). Other built-in traps are checked for signs of trapped insects and other vermin that might suggest the ship picked up an infestation that needs to be treated before docking. The customs official does a quick review of the passenger manifest and compares names to people present, does a quick-and-dirty health check (mostly looking for fevers, respiratory symptoms and other overt signs of airborne communicables). With enclosed environments, that's all pretty important.
The customs agent also checks the computer's alert log for any ship systems alerts that might indicate the ship was not mechanically safe to dock or land under its own power. The customs official then checks over the cargo manifest for any obvious and unintended contraband ("Whups, live redfrogs. I'll have to impound that when you dock, but the rest looks OK. They should have caught that before you left Efate. Have the shipment owner contact us."), then inspects the accessible cargo to verify that shipping seals haven't been broken and that no one's hiding back there. A sensor scan confirms basic cargo information: no undisclosed radioactives, no undocumented life forms hiding where they shouldn't be, no unusual density patterns suggesting contaband in odd places. More detailed inspections occurred before the cargo was loaded and will likely occur again after it's unloaded to the port warehouse, but that's not the ship's problem.
Some C startports do this as well. Some are more ... relaxed.
Customs would NOT logically occur at the station. Customs at the station means a chance a stowaway could escape the ship before being found, a disease could get into the station before being discovered, unnoted vermin could crawl from ship to port ... what good is space if you don't use it?
IMTU - at a Class A/B starport - initial starport customs occurs away from the station, in orbit close to but not at the high port. A customs party comes aboard, reviews the ship's medical record and air recirc system for any signs of communicable diseases that might need attention before the ship was allowed to dock; the air system has a number of small traps whose job is to catch samples of any diseases floating in the air during the flight so customs knows what might be aboard and can take action (an antibiotic and a couple day's quarantine usually being sufficient to render the occupants at least noninfectious). Other built-in traps are checked for signs of trapped insects and other vermin that might suggest the ship picked up an infestation that needs to be treated before docking. The customs official does a quick review of the passenger manifest and compares names to people present, does a quick-and-dirty health check (mostly looking for fevers, respiratory symptoms and other overt signs of airborne communicables). With enclosed environments, that's all pretty important.
The customs agent also checks the computer's alert log for any ship systems alerts that might indicate the ship was not mechanically safe to dock or land under its own power. The customs official then checks over the cargo manifest for any obvious and unintended contraband ("Whups, live redfrogs. I'll have to impound that when you dock, but the rest looks OK. They should have caught that before you left Efate. Have the shipment owner contact us."), then inspects the accessible cargo to verify that shipping seals haven't been broken and that no one's hiding back there. A sensor scan confirms basic cargo information: no undisclosed radioactives, no undocumented life forms hiding where they shouldn't be, no unusual density patterns suggesting contaband in odd places. More detailed inspections occurred before the cargo was loaded and will likely occur again after it's unloaded to the port warehouse, but that's not the ship's problem.
Some C startports do this as well. Some are more ... relaxed.
I concur with Carlo - customs starts with boarding teams in orbit. IMTU, a cutter from a customs ship. The ship is hot and ready, and usually a least a 400Td ship. (Not usually a type T - that's a poor customs vessel, but a good Bk2 patrol vessel for TL 11-12.) It's got plenty of firepower (4 triples - 12 weapons, with, usually, 4-6 lasers, 4-6 missiles, and 2 sandcasters. Due to damage tables, the sand are never in the same turret.)
400 Td is big enough to carry a couple cutters, and quarters for a decent number of marines, along with J1 and M6/P6. Give it the best computer the money and tech will buy...
Shoot the cutter, and the ship and its other cutter go after you.
400 Td is big enough to carry a couple cutters, and quarters for a decent number of marines, along with J1 and M6/P6. Give it the best computer the money and tech will buy...
Shoot the cutter, and the ship and its other cutter go after you.
CT/HG2, try your solution aganst a Chameleon or Gazelle, though logically a corsair would be some sort of q-ship and not ostentatiously a corsair.
It's where it happens now and for many very good reasons.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
My basic interplanetary patrol boats are even smaller - 10dT (the 10dT hull is ubiquitous IMTU, essentially a Trek shuttle that acts as everything from a patrol craft to a lifeboat)
These are the equivalent of a police patrol car, with a couple of crew, looking for problems, keeping the peace and showing the flag. Yes, you could take one out with a turret missile, just like you could take out a police car with a 40mm grenade. But in both cases you wouldn't, not if you had any sense.
Here and now isn't the wild frontier like Regina is, I can see core worlds before the rebellion doing it with smaller boats, though they probably don't have any system defense assets either. Regina has to have them, so it might as well use them instead of creating a duplicate patrol force.
HG2? Which is that, the High Guard after the revisions?
Never heard of a "chameleon", not familiar with it, but it goes without saying the boat would not be up to handling something with a really good computer. I wouldn't try to match it against a Zhodani destroyer, for example. It remains however that anything with a Computer 2 is in trouble, and I'd take that one step further to say that I've got a decent chance at breaking away if I come up against someone with a Computer 3.
So, if your various sector and planetary navies are accidentally misplacing their warships and the things are frequently finding their way into pirate hands, then my boat has a problem - and so does your navy. Hang the admirals for gross deriliction: pirates with navy ships should be a rare event rather than the norm, and they should be actively hunting any of their crews that commit barratry. If on the other hand your pirates are, like many pirates, just your ordinary everyday opportunists making use of whatever resources luck and wit can bring to them, then the 5g/computer-6 pirate is the exception rather than the rule, at least in peacetime. Wartime's another issue.
Q-ships are mostly a wartime thing. The historical Q-ships were freighters covertly armed by the Brits to surprise German subs in WW-1: rather controversial, they persuaded the Germans to use torpedoes from afar rather than popping up and letting the passengers and crew take to lifeboats before sinking the ship. Backfired in that respect - unless you're the type that figures the Brit government did it to provoke exactly that response for propaganda reasons. Lusitania was a potential Q-ship. Bases for guns had been installed, though she was not carrying guns at the time of her sinking.
What we call Q ships in the game are freighters or freighter look-alikes with military-grade computers and drives. How good that is depends on how good the systems are; as I said, I still have a decent chance getting away from something with a Model 3. However, if it's wartime - or if I'm up near the Vargr extents, where they like to do that kind of thing all the time, or if word is out that relations with the Sworders are bad and they're playing that game - then my procedures obviously change. One methods are always designed to meet the actual situation one is likely to face.
It's where it happens now on Earth, in the oceans. I don't recall New York Harbor having a "high port" a few miles out in the ocean from the harbor itself, so perhaps we could agree that modern-day Earth's harbors and airports might not be the most effective example to draw on for what might happen in the orbital space adjacent to a man-made structure floating in vacuum many hundreds or thousands of miles above any possible help.
A high port is not a seaport. Every human in the thing depends on machines for every breath they draw. Handle it wrong, and you've got the Legionnaire's Disease incident multiplied a thousand fold. Don't try to tell me the high port would not make every effort to prevent an epidemic from being let loose or some poorly maintained ship from accidentally crashing into that comparatively tiny and machine-dependent environment.
So your threat assesment consists of what is the best that can possibly happen?
HG2 = High Guard second edition. Chameleon is in FASA ACS1.
No, if cargo is inspected at all and which a fairly small amount actually is, it happens in port.
You mean like today where there is no control? Can't say I have EVER been checked for diseases at customs. Though I think 3000 years from now their medicine will be a slight bit better.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I have. I was checked for Swine Flu by Kenyan customs. Not that it was a very effective test...