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planetary police jurisdictions

Rancke2 said:
Or perhaps the law enforcement agency would simply not be expected to engaged in naval action with armed traders.
That's certainly NOT evidenced by the tables in CT/MT/MGT/T4/T5... Police in all those get access to ship skills.
I can't find the CT rules for generating law enforcers. The MT rules on p. 23 of MT:Players' Manual do not give law enforcers access to ship skills (Unless you're referring to two of the cascade skills that gives access to some skills that you can also receive while serving in the navy). Same for the Agent on p. 10 of the MgT:Core Rulebook. Same for the Agent on p. 32 of T4 Corebook. I don't have access to T5.

Just what rules are you referring to?


Because porder patrol has been, in the US and many european nations, a paramilitary civil force, and border agencies are NOT military in most nations - and when a separate force, even when paramilitary, they are not considered military personnel for international law.

I did not know that. And I still don't think guarding a border is a police function as I understand the term. But I can see that I'm getting ever closer to a "true Scotsman" argumentation, so I'll concede the point.

Going back to my original statement, I still maintain that military functions and police functions are distinct, and while some military organizations do exercise some police functions (and vice versa), the training needed for many of the two functions differs. I further maintain that a lot of people do not think it's a good idea to have military personnel perform most police functions nor police perform most military functions. If they're not trained for it, they're liable to make mistakes and if they are trained for it, they're spending training time on a secondary (or further down the order of priority) function that inevitably comes off the training time for their primary purpose.


Hans
 
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Oops, one of those threads.

IMTU (which has little bearing on the OTU or Earth today) I tried to figure out what would happen logically in an interplanetary/unterstellar situation. Hailing from an island nation, maybe I have some advantage there.

IMTU, the police investigate domestic crime and keep the peace, the coastguard patrol the borders and the 'seas' between the 'system archipelago' that constitute the limits of the government jurisdiction, and both are able to call upon local and Imperial military should the need arise.

The police will have their own interplanetary vessels to carry personnel from one planet to another and perhaps to give chase between worlds, but their role is primarily surface-bound. The coastguard are primarily responsible for patrolling the space between worlds in relation to crime - smuggling, etc.

The local and imperial navies are responsible for patrolling space for purposes of national or Imperial security (as opposed to crime). Occasionally the roles will overlap, and IMTU there is strong co-operation rather than inter-service rivalry.
 
The guard is trained and equiped, many other forces as well, look at major rioting in the us is often quelled by military forces, also the military does do some of the border policing against drug smugglers off the coast. One of the first things Washington did as President was to send the army out to quell the whisky rebellion, so the precedent has always been there, look at Matewan or the vigilance committees in San Francisco.

Uh, what??

1. Maybe that's about what one defines as a "major" riot. Most riots I know of were handled by a combination of local and state police, using riot shields, tear gas, special vehicles, etc. Guard forces step in when the police don't have the manpower or other resources to handle the situation, and only when the civilian administration calls them in, and under the direction of the civilian administration. They are a last resort, not an "often" resort; it's more than a bit of an embarrassment to the police, the civilian administration, and the community as a whole when things degenerate to that point, and it is invariably followed by a great deal of soul-searching and finger-pointing to figure out what went wrong and find a way to keep it from reaching that point again. During the LA riots in '92, the California National Guard was not mobilized until 2 or 3 days into the riots, when it was clear the police could not or would not control the situation.

2. The military does not "police" the borders. They patrol the borders, using men and equipment to spot suspicious activity but allowing the legal authorities (including the Coast Guard and Border Patrol) to handle the arrests. That's a bit of a sensitive issue for those of us living on the border, so their duties and responsibilities are pretty carefully defined.

3. The Whiskey Rebellion was, as described, an armed rebellion. Increasing dissatisfaction with a tax on whiskey led to acts of violence and intimidation escalating to an attack on a tax collector's home by several hundred armed men. Washington went in with the state militias because he faced an armed resistance; fortunately, the show of force was sufficient.

4. Matewan describes an incident in which efforts by miners to organize a union, resisted by the mining company, culminated in a shootout between miners (led by a local lawman) and members of a private detective agency hired by the company to evict pro-union miner families. That led through various incidents to the Battle of Blair Mountain, where a large body of several thousand armed coal miners battled a body of about 3 thousand lawmen and strikebreakers, triggering intervention by the U.S. Army. Again, a case of the army being sent in to address armed conflict beyond the abilities of law enforcement, not police work.

5. Vigilance committees - I'm not clear on how a private vigilante group relates to the issue of armed forces being used for police work.

In each of these examples, we are confronted with military forces stepping in only when the situation was clearly beyond the capabilities of civilian police forces. Harking back to the original post, this would be like calling out the SDBs when an orbital patrol cutter's routine customs inspection erupted into a battle with a well-armed 400-ton pirate. One wouldn't tie up SDB crews inspecting every little free trader's hold for contraband when a cutter and a handful of customs guards could do the job, but one would most certainly like to have the SDB standing by in case something got nasty. It is as much a question of efficient use of resources as anything else.
 
Deliberately casting aside analogies and examples from western democracies, just for the sake of being different should also be frowned upon as it limits options.


Just as limiting yourself to analogies and examples from Western democracies - and analogies and examples from a limited number of Western democracies during a limited time period - should also be frowned upon as it too limits options.

I merely was attempting...

I merely was agreeing with your post and then attempting to expand on it. That attempt wasn't entirely clear however.

Traveller, like all RPGs, is about challenging preconceptions; i.e. the "We're Not In Kansas Anymore" effect. Mining the whole of the human experience to challenge the players' preconceptions should be every GM's goal.

Naturally there is a spectrum involved, one which ranges from Dull, Unimaginative and Formulaic through Preconception Challenging and Thought Provoking and on to Bizarre and Weird For The Sake Of Being Weird. In planetary police force case under discussion here, examples along the Lazily Dull-to-Deliberately Weird spectrum would be:

They're just the FBI with shuttles... to;

They're a branch of the planet's military forces because no one here thinks a posse comitatus act is necessary... to;

They're genetically uplifted lemurs who can smell when people lie...

IMHO, Traveller should trend towards the middle example. After all, if the cops you're playing are just like cops today why are you playing a RPG set in the 57th Century?
 
I disagree.

/snip/

Traveller, like all RPGs, is about challenging preconceptions; i.e. the "We're Not In Kansas Anymore" effect. Mining the whole of the human experience to challenge the players' preconceptions should be every GM's goal.

Naturally there is a spectrum involved, one which ranges from Dull, Unimaginative and Formulaic through Preconception Challenging and Thought Provoking and on to Bizarre and Weird For The Sake Of Being Weird. In planetary police force case under discussion here, examples along the Lazily Dull-to-Deliberately Weird spectrum would be:

They're just the FBI with shuttles... to;

They're a branch of the planet's military forces because no one here thinks a posse comitatus act is necessary... to;

They're genetically uplifted lemurs who can smell when people lie...

IMHO, Traveller should trend towards the middle example. After all, if the cops you're playing are just like cops today why are you playing a RPG set in the 57th Century?
Actually, sir, RPGs are basic power fantasies, not about challenging preconceptions. If they do challenge preconceptions then that is a bonus, not their prime reason for existence.

Honestly, I prefer option three, lie detecting uplifted lemurs sound cool and I may swipe them.

And last, cops in the 20th Century don't get spaceships and ray guns.
 
Now, ObTrav: Canon says the local world has authority to 100 diameters. COACC has authority from takeoff to 1/10 diameter above surface; planetary navies above that.

Just trying to add some more chaos to this :devil:, how do these limits apply on an asteroid belt system (let's say Glisten)?
 
Without adding gasoline to the fire, I have often wondered why Traveller would limit the affairs of a planetary government to 100 diameters. I understand the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare and they are a bunch of control freaks, but such overt micromanagement would cause the Imperium to collapse rather quickly. The time lag for communications would see to this especially in case of inept leadership at the sector and quadrant levels. It is one thing to have an Imperial supervision of the space surrounding the planet but it is another thing to have their hands in the daily political affairs of the planet. The same goes for police jurisdiction. Such an organization whose sole purpose is to police the space surrounding at planet would be larger than the military need to defend the Imperium. By limiting a planet’s ability to police its own system you add more responsibilities to the Imperium to undertake. There is a much simpler way to approach this.

You have to look the British Commonwealth system with the twist that no planet is able to seek independents from the Commonwealth and those who do are dealt with, with extreme prejudices. Many of the scenarios present in JTAS journal seem to allow planetary governments to fight amongst themselves and have minor rebellions taking place at any given time. The only time Imperial Forces seem to step in is when these disagreements threaten Imperial interest. As long as the planet maintains their bond with the Imperium, they are allowed to do whatever they please concerning their population and how they govern themselves.

Planets who have faithfully served the Imperium would be given the rights of self rule. Under a Home Rule Charter the planet would agree to defend, police and control of the population over the entire solar system allowing the Imperium to use their forces elsewhere. They would maintain the starport, military and scout base on the planet. There would also be some sort of Imperial entity to make sure the planet continued to serve the Imperium faithfully. Psychological this would allow the planet’s population to become a part of the Imperium. Up until the time Home Rule Status was given to the world, the Imperium would be seen as occupiers and this might cause friction between them and the locals. This depends of course on how they were accepted into the Imperium in the first place.

How does this system pertain to planetary jurisdiction of a police force?

100 Diameter Rule applies to low pop worlds, planet with low tech level or the industrial base to build a space force and unruly planets who are having a hard time accepting Imperial supervision. Policing of the system is the responsibility of the military without aide or insight from the planetary government. Requires a large Imperial presence in the system.

Home Rule Charter applies to compliant worlds with high population and tech level with an industrial base with the capability to create their own space force. Policing the system is the responsibility of the Planetary Government(s). Requires a small Imperial presence in the system and oversight by Imperial Entity such as a governor or Noble.

This does not permit a planetary government to chase a criminal outside the system. That is still the job of the Imperium. Planetary governments must also adhere to Imperial Law which can supersede local laws.

I think I covered most of my thoughts on the subject…
 
Just as limiting yourself to analogies and examples from Western democracies - and analogies and examples from a limited number of Western democracies during a limited time period - should also be frowned upon as it too limits options.

Who's talking about limiting oneself to analogies and examples from Western democracies? Just because Western civilization is the most convenient source of analogies and examples doesn't mean one has to limit oneself to using them exclusively. I certainly don't. But to refrain from using them out of some concern for providing one's players with a sufficiency of challenged preconceptions is IMO going to distort your setting needlessly. I throw in challenges to preconceptions when they enhance the setting and stick to well-known tropes when I think they will work best. I just don't force it either way.

Traveller, like all RPGs, is about challenging preconceptions; i.e. the "We're Not In Kansas Anymore" effect. Mining the whole of the human experience to challenge the players' preconceptions should be every GM's goal.

My goal is to provide a fun evening's entertainment for my players.

Naturally there is a spectrum involved, one which ranges from Dull, Unimaginative and Formulaic through Preconception Challenging and Thought Provoking and on to Bizarre and Weird For The Sake Of Being Weird. In planetary police force case under discussion here, examples along the Lazily Dull-to-Deliberately Weird spectrum would be:

They're just the FBI with shuttles... to;

They're a branch of the planet's military forces because no one here thinks a posse comitatus act is necessary... to;

Seriously? You think your second example is any more imaginative than the first? Really?

I have an idea for a justice system that I haven't found the right world to place on yet. In brief, judges are priests dedicated to the God(dess) of Justice. Police are sort of like orders of knighthood. I submit that this setup IS fairly imaginative and will challenge my players' preconceptions when they encounter it, and I expect some good fun out of it. But I'm not going to come up with an equally innovative justice system for every one of the umpteen worlds and countires of the Imperium. Not only am I not ashamed to admit that I don't have enough imagination to do so, but I wouldn't do it even if I could; doing so would make the setting utterly artificial and unbelievable. IMO there are good reasons why the justice systems of Western democracies work the way they do and there will be plenty of worlds that will emulate them, warts and all. (Or rather, plenty of worlds that will emulate the justice systems of their mother worlds that in turn emulated the justice systems of their mother worlds, etc. for as many links as it takes to go back to Terra).

IMHO, Traveller should trend towards the middle example. After all, if the cops you're playing are just like cops today why are you playing a RPG set in the 57th Century?
But they're not just like cops today. They have SHUTTLES!! ;)


Hans
 
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There are logical considerations here, born of the technology implied within the game mechanics:

Planetary police are going to be primarily focused on enforcing law on the planet itself - that's where the bulk of the population is, that's where the bulk of the lawbreaking is likely to occur. Off the surface, there are three broad regions we're debating: 1) the atmospheric envelope (assuming one), 2) the near-orbital region (where grav lifts function normally), and 3) the far-orbit to deep-space region (where grav lifts function at significantly reduced efficiency).

The atmospheric envelope tends to be transitional - you're going through it to get to land, or to get from land to orbit. Not much time for crime, and most governments will tend to consider their writ to extend through that volume for obvious reasons, ergo civilian police authority extends to that region (though they may need a bit of help from some agency with the proper vehicles for certain special situations).

Most governments will tend to consider their writ to extend to the near-orbit region for very important reasons: to keep folk from dropping ordnance (or just stupid junk in general) on their heads and to protect and regulate the close-orbit satellites that might be used and the orbits those satellites have to travel in. Geostationary orbit for Terra, for example, runs a bit under 3 planetary diameters up from the surface. However, the near-orbit region requires specialized, expensive equipment: fully enclosed and pressurized grav vehicles or spacecraft. Of the two, the former tend to be cheaper. The applicable laws will be different as well: laws primarily intended to keep the orbital space clear, safe and efficiently organized, and to regulate what comes down to the planet. And, personnel operating in this region will tend to be in orbit for long periods - it's more efficient than hopping up from and back down to planet-side bases for every contact.

The need to purchase and maintain specialized equipment, to train personnel to function in and apply law specific to that setting, and to have those personnel spending the bulk of their duty time in that setting implies that authority would be vested in a separate organization dedicated to the task, but nonetheless under the authority of the planetary government: a kind of near-orbit Coast Guard - Customs Enforcement, perhaps. Where there are planetary defenses, those would function to support that agency in the event of incidents beyond the resources of that agency, so that agency's equipment would be mostly spaceworthy grav vehicles and perhaps small 10-ton fighters.

Most actual customs inspection will occur in near orbit for the simple reason that it's a more efficient use of the time of the customs agents - they don't have to spend as much time getting from ship to ship (a 50-diameter hop can take from an hour to two hours, where a hop from one ship to another in near orbit can be a matter of minutes), and if someone tries to evade customs, the miscreant has either a long run to a safe jump point or a slow braking through atmosphere in order to evade pursuit.

Most planetary governments will also tend to consider their writ to extend to the far-orbit region - this region is the approach to the planet: ships can't jump in closer, can't safely jump out closer, they have to traverse that 100-diameter space to get to or from the planet. However, this region implies a different set of challenges and needs: in this region, the authorities are primarily supervising ship traffic, escorting ships in to the customs checkpoints, responding to ships in distress, chasing off pirates, pursuing fleeing lawbreakers and the like. Grav vehicles function poorly here; the craft most effective for rescue, pursuit, or combat are going to be spacecraft with maneuver drives. Thus the different needs and equipment here would again imply a different agency - one equipped with well-armed maneuver-drive spacecraft - but again under the authority of the planetary government.

The spacecrafts in question would be designed to handle combat with civilian ships and pirates: a single military-grade Model-9F computer costs MCr200, but a model-4 or model-5 at a small fraction of the cost would still well-outmatch the systems of the typical merchantman or pirate. Thus, this force would be a cost-effective patrol force for civilian work - but if an honest-to-goodness warship showed up, it would have to retreat and call in naval warcraft.
 
The 400t patrol cruiser has always struck me as being a police vessel rather than a military ship.

Agreed, but who is in control of these ships?

Is the planetary government or the Imperium? If the latter then, we must assume that the Imperium has a "Space Patrol" or "Space Ranger".
 
There are logical considerations here, born of the technology implied within the game mechanics:

Sounds like a complete agreement with my msg #42. :)


IMTU Patrol Cruisers would fall to the Coastguard, but they would not normally need Jump capability. Some of the wacky ideas for canon ships confirmed my early decision to make up my own - such as the 300dT 3xtriple turret M6 J0 Coastguard Interceptor. If you're faced with a wolf pack of these, do exactly what the nice man says....
 
Police separate from military, or more correctly, a civil-only police system, seldom exists outside Europe.

Better add Australia to that list, although that's probably due to our British inheritance. ;)

Our military is used in emergencies - such as providing personnel to assist in natural disasters - but they don't normally patrol the streets, or are visible otherwise. Each state government runs a police force; for example, the 15,800 in NSW (a state almost as big as Texas plus Louisiana) make it "one of the biggest in the English speaking world"- at least according to its website. The Commonwealth provides the Feds (Aust. Federal Police or AFP) to look after the ACT and federal laws, including the Protective Service who guard the PM, foreign embassies and criticl facilities like Lucas Heights.

This is in stark contrast to somewhere like Indonesia, where (for example) airport security is provided by soldiers armed with machine guns. And don't think this is just a "since 9/11" thing, this goes back to 1977!

I love ribbing friends from the USA that their's is a confederation - despite their protestations to the contrary (especially the Northerners!) - with the National Guard as one of the proofs! (For other Aussies on the list:) Can you imagine a "NSW Army"? Or a "Queensland Air Force"? Especially when we have - count 'em -only 24 Super Hornets in the entire country (I even saw them - ALL of them - fly over Brissie late last year!). The national Guard - not even the front-line regular military - can afford to lose a flight of aircraft more than we could afford to lose a single one!

Anyway, one of the strengths of Traveller is that multiple-variant types of government and their associated juristictions are in-built into the fabric of the OTU background. This allows you the freedom to emplace virtually whatever you want - whatever is going to direct or enhance the storyline - and worry about justifying it later (if at all). If you want police only with the military being invisible, do it! If you want to impose martial law, do it! If some local disaster occurs, and the starport director (having mined the Imperial records for your resumes) wants to persuade you - as good ex-Imperial Army types - to assist the planetary police/militia/grounds forces in mopping up the mess, go for it!

Just make sure that you let us know what you decided to do, and how the game played out - some of us might want to plagiari^k^k^k borrow your ideas to throw at our own players...
 
Back to the Original question

How far within an inhabited system does the jurisdiction of a world's police force extend? I'm running Mongoose Traveller's "Secrets of the Ancients" and I wonder whether the Regina Public Order Commission's jurisdiction extends out to the container yard at the Lagrangian stable point between Regina and Assiniboia.

Suppose an area of an inhabited system is not covered by planetary police jurisdiction, who is responsible for police and security matters? Presumably the local system defence force, or the Imperial Navy?

Your thoughts please!

Thanks, Lindsay Jackson.

Remember that Regina is a VERY bureaucratic governmental system, that being said. ;)
The Regina Public Order Commission authority might extend out there
as well as one or two other departments as well as the Starport Authority.
When two or more departments claim jurisdiction either too many enforcers getting in each others way or nobody enforces the laws so as to prevent a "turf war" between departments.
I would presume the second to make your life as GM easier. :D
 
Even in Europe there are many places where the police and military merge.

In Spain, the Guardia Civil is (or was until 2008, not sure since then) a military corps specifically dedicated to law enforcement (and border/maritime patrol). The use of other military forces in law enforcement duties requires (at lest in theory) the proclamation of State of Alarm, War or Siege (the various kinds of martial law reflected in Spanish Constitution)

Likewise, in Italy the Carabinieri are a military corps, and also dedicated to law enforcement.

I'm not so sure, but AFAIK UK has no SWAT equivalent for their police, its duties being taken over by the SAS (a military unit).

The French National Gendarmerie was under Army until 2009 (AFAIK, not sure now).

And sure there are more I'm not aware of...

So, not even in Western Europe the line between police forces and military is as clear as most seem to believe here, though as some said, this may be fully inapplicable to Traveller, even for the Solomani, as things change a lot in 3500+ years
 
Even in Europe there are many places where the police and military merge.
Yes indeed. As I said from the first, there are times and places where military and police functions have been mixed up.

There's a word for that. It's called a paramilitary force. The term is somewhat ambiguous but usually means a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.

That's not the same thing as a formal armed force routinely being used for ordinary police functions. There is a certain amount of overlap between military and police tasks (particularily when it comes to guarding something), but military don't usually investigate robberies and ordinary police (as opposed to paramilitary SWAT teams and counterterrorists units) don't usually fight pitched battles.

Of the 19 functions listed for the Guardia Civil in the Wikipedia article, 15 of them boils down to guard duty and quasimilitary action of one kind or another. They do conduct intelligence and counter-intelligence work and investigate cyber- and internet crimes, but it's my guess that they have separate departments with properly trained people for that. I could be wrong though. The issuing of hunting licences and enforcement of environmental law could well be performed by ordinary members of the force.

Spain also has a National Police Corps that is civilian in nature. Indeed, while there may well be some countries that do not have a civilian police force, I haven't been able to find one in a quick google.


Hans
 
I'm not so sure, but AFAIK UK has no SWAT equivalent for their police, its duties being taken over by the SAS (a military unit).

AFAIK, the SAS are rarely used for internal affairs - at least, not openly.
The UK has the Flying Squad and SO 19, but they're not high profile. In theory the lack of armed civilians requires few, if any, armed police.
In reality hardened criminals have no problems getting hold of firearms, but at least they're usually more interested in turf wars over drugs than holding up the corner shop at gunpoint.
 
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