Pilot vs Ship's Boat skill

[atpollard]

Or, consider the 100 ton Scout. One person can operate that vessel safely, in and out of, jump.

Or the survival roll for that career suggests 'maybe, not'.

Think of it like this.
Air/Raft skill teaches expertise in Z.
Ship's Boat skill teaches expertise in Y and Z
Pilot skill teaches expertise in X, Y, and Z.

To me this actually suggests that skills 'Y' and 'Z' have been too narrowly defined and should have been included in 'Pilot'. This is one of the areas in CT that I believe actually should be cleaned up. As this short discussion has shown, there are several alternatives that do not 'break' the CT system but which make 'more sense' (a highly subjective criteria to be sure).

Is it really unimaginable that a skilled Navy Fighter Pilot (ship's boat-2) could land a Large Civilian Transport (pilot-0)? The Official rules say that the Ship's Doctor (Medic-2) has just as much chance (which in both cases includes a -5 non-proficiency penalty, meaning virtually no chance of success).

 

[Supplement Four]

Is it really unimaginable that a skilled Navy Fighter Pilot (ship's boat-2) could land a Large Civilian Transport (pilot-0)?

Naw, it's not. And, I think the rules encourage GMs to allow those types of things (just as the rules state giving a character a Skill-0 skill if it makes sense the character should have it--GM's discretion).

As I said above, if the GM thinks it makes sense, then he should do it.

The Official rules say that the Ship's Doctor (Medic-2) has just as much chance (which in both cases includes a -5 non-proficiency penalty, meaning virtually no chance of success).

BTW, I think you're using that -5 non-proficiency penalty a little too widely. As written, it's only for weapons (although I think it stands as an example of how to impose a penalty to the non-skilled when needed).

But, also remember that, in CT, most of the time, there is no penalty for not being skilled.

You don't have to have a medical skill to bring someone out of low berth. The Medical skill helps, though.

A character can still fly an Air/Raft without the skill--he just doesn't get the bonus.

A character can attempt a Zero-G maneuver, he just doesn't get the huge +4 DM per level of Vacc Suit skill. See, the "penalty" is not getting that +4 DM (and the throw is 10+).

That's just three examples. Most of the time, in CT, there is no consequence for not being skilled (which is why a character in CT with just one or two skills is very playable).

The non-skilled typically just forgoes the bonus DM. That's his penalty. He can still throw the dice, though, without penalty.

I think the MT task system, with its -4 DM if not skilled, has colored some CT ref's.

There are rare occasions when CT throws can't be attempted if a character doesn't have the right skill, or maybe a penalty is enforced if the right skill is not present, but these situations do not pop up all that often. When they do, they're noted in the text.

As a CT GM, you might want to consider ref-fing your game that way---where no penalty appears but only on rare occasions.

 

[Mithras]

Because it has to operate in space, the pilot needs skill at maneuvering at zero-gravity, also making "Ships Boat" skill more than that of merely flying an atmospheric craft.

How about considering it the skill of 'operating inside a steep gravity well' then, instead?

 

[atpollard]

Naw, it's not. And, I think the rules encourage GMs to allow those types of things (just as the rules state giving a character a Skill-0 skill if it makes sense the character should have it--GM's discretion).

As I said above, if the GM thinks it makes sense, then he should do it.

I agree completely with your interpretation and I personally use GM discretion quite liberally to 'tell a good story'. However the Pilot and Ships Boat skills specifically state that 'Pilot skill' CAN help with 'Ship's boat skill' tasks and 'Ship's boat skill' CANNOT help with 'Pilot skill' tasks. PILOT is also not listed as one of the skills for which skill-0 is appropriate and it is not very similar to any of the listed skill-0 skills. The implication (intended or not) is that Piloting a spaceship is like open heart surgery - not something that should be attempted by amateurs (or skilled Small Craft pilots).

BTW, I think you're using that -5 non-proficiency penalty a little too widely. As written, it's only for weapons (although I think it stands as an example of how to impose a penalty to the non-skilled when needed).

But, also remember that, in CT, most of the time, there is no penalty for not being skilled.

Personally, I think that a –5 penalty on 2D6 is too high for any circumstance. If a character with Medic-0 wanted to attempt emergency brain surgery in a tent using only a TL 4 pocket knife, then I would give the Player a 1 in 36 chance (roll a natural 12 on 2D6). With the general ‘roll 8+ for success’, a roll of 2D6-5 makes the task impossible. It is, however, the only* non-prof penalty that I know of in the rules (which is not saying much) and the one with which CT players are most familiar (which is saying a lot).

At the very least the non-prof penalty needs a clearer presentation than a –5 for combat and a note somewhere else for the GM to ‘use his best judgement’.

PILOTING A SPACESHIP does not appear to be one of those skills designed for anyone to be able to do - like wearing a Vacc Suit, reviving a Low Berth, or Brawling. So your examples, while generally quite accurate do not appear applicable to the specific issue of PILOT vs SHIP’S BOAT skills.

[*EDIT: after thinking about it, Vacc Suit might have a -4 non-prof penalty for some poor wretch that the GM decides does not have VaccSuit-0. This at least gives a small chance of rolling 8+ on 2D6 - which is all I ask for in a CT penalty. ]

 

[Foxroe]

While the other systems certainly provide viable alternatives to the way these skills are handled, I prefer the simpler approach of CT: role-playing vice rule-playing. Just my preference I guess.

For those of you who may agree at least somewhat, I offer another possible way to look at the difference between Pilot and Ship’s Boat skill:

A character with the Pilot skill is knowledgeable in the handling of large/interstellar spacecraft in all aspects of operation (i.e. atmosphere/interface/gravity/zero-G). She knows what to expect from these operating environments, and knows how to handle her lumbering ship in each case. When this same character finds herself in the seat of a ship’s launch, the operation of the craft’s simpler controls may not be second nature to her, but the environment she is operating in is; therefore, she can still pilot said craft, but at a disadvantage (-1 to skill checks).

A character with the Ship’s boat skill is knowledgeable in operating small non-jump capable craft, typically in reference to larger near-by objects (i.e. planets/asteroids/space stations/starships). Put him in the seat of an interstellar ship and shout “engage!”, and he would just scratch his head, frowning at the array and complexity of the controls staring back at him. (Edit: although as just pointed out in the previous post, the GM may allow a character with Ship's Boat skill a default Pilot-0 for basic tasks)

I really think that CT makes it a point to differentiate between Starships and Spaceships. These skills certainly support it. And I know people seem to have a hard time with the 99dT to 100dT breakpoint, but the designers had to draw a line somewhere, and it seems as good a place as any.

(hands soapbox over to someone else…)

-Fox

 

[tbeard1999]

Howsabout this fix:

For Pilot skill, the player chooses a specialty:

Small Craft (100 tons or less) (This replaces Ship's Boat)
Small Ships (100 tons to 600 tons)
Medium Ships (400 tons to 2000 tons)
Large Ships (1000 tons to 10,000 tons)
Very Large Ships (10,000+ tons)

A Pilot has the indicated level in his specialty, and a -1 per degree of separation in other skills. So, Pilot (Small Craft) can fly Small Ships at -1, Medium Ships at -2, Large Ships at -3, and Very Large Ships at -4.

Depending on your conception of what Pilot skill really is, you can limit the modifiers or always allow a Pilot 1+ character to have skill level 0 in all types of skills.

A character may apply Pilot Skill to more than one specialty; in that case, he gets his choice of the default skill level or the actual skill level. For instance, Biff Redstone rolls a level of Pilot skill and applies it to Medium Ships. He later rolls a level of Pilot skill and applies it to Small Craft. With Small Craft, he can take either the default skill (which is -1) or the actual skill level, which is 1.

Specific break points are off the cuff suggestions only. I'd have some overlap between the break points, so (for instance) a 100 ton scout ship can be flown by Small Craft pilots or Small Ship pilots.

Or you can do like I do and let all Pilots pilot everything.

 

[Supplement Four]

The implication (intended or not) is that Piloting a spaceship is like open heart surgery - not something that should be attempted by amateurs (or skilled Small Craft pilots).

Agreed. I wouldn't let someone without Pilot skill pilot a vessel in a game--not without making the throw (if I let one at all) be extremely hard.

I wouldn't let someone without Engineering skill fix the jump drive either.

Here's where I think the disconnect comes in: Later games (most all games, not just Traveller games--and especially d20 games) tend to groom players and refs into the thought that, "If it's not in the book, it's not a real rule." Thus, we get all these books of rules for every sort of encounter and situation. (It's a marketing strategy. What sells, adventures or rule supplements? Rule supplements. So, let's publish as many rule supplements as we can...and we need a complicated system to keep tweaking...thus we have the d20 system...thus, we are always publishing new rules for it, upgrades, new editions, speciality rules for different situations).

When CT was written, the GM was all powerful. Even though, today, the books still say the GM is all powerful, the implications is that the book material is all powerful and the GM must stick by that.

When CT was written, the GM was expected to use his judgement all the time. The CT rules are meant as a bare bones rule of thumb. Check out Book 0. This type of thing is discussed.

And, that's how I run my game. I use the "spirit" of the CT rules. And, doggone it, if it makes sense that a Pilot-3 would have some minimal knowldge in piloting Air/Rafts, then I think the CT rules support the decision to allow Pilot-3 skill to serve as Air/Raft-1 skill.

Take Combat Rifleman, for example. In my game, I allow CR to also be used as a melee skill since I believe Marines and soldiers are taught to use their rifles as weapons even if they're out of ammo. Now, the rules don't cover this specificially but I think the intent is there.

Just look at a skill like Engineering. Doesn't is sorta cover Mechanical and Electrical skills? I think it does.

Then, I look deeper, and what do I see? Throws where Mechanical or Electrical skill give a +1 DM on throws, or an Engineering throw can be used at +2 DM per level.

There's all sorts of examples like that.

Personally, I think that a –5 penalty on 2D6 is too high for any circumstance.

I see your point. I wouldn't say "any" circumstance, though. Obviously, it's a severe penalty. So, given that, I'd reserve it for only the most severe examples of unskilled attempting a task that requires a skill.

If a character with Medic-0 wanted to attempt emergency brain surgery in a tent using only a TL 4 pocket knife, then I would give the Player a 1 in 36 chance (roll a natural 12 on 2D6). With the general ‘roll 8+ for success’, a roll of 2D6-5 makes the task impossible. It is, however, the only* non-prof penalty that I know of in the rules (which is not saying much) and the one with which CT players are most familiar (which is saying a lot).

I'd go about this a little differently. I think the Vacc Suit throw for Zero-G is brilliant. I use that exampe for a lot of things where skill is very important.

The throw is 10+. The DM is +4 per skill level. Thus, a person with Vacc Suit-2 is automatically successful. A person with Vacc Suit-1 has a better than 50-50 shot with a throw of 6+. And, it's very difficult for the unskilled, having to throw a 10+.

The penalty is "built in" without having to say, "-X DM if not skilled".

As I said, I think that's a brilliant task.

For your medical example, I'd probably go with something like: 15+ throw required. +2 DM per Medical skill. +2 DM if DEX 8+.

That way, it takes a pretty skilled surgeon to perform the brain surgery, and the average joe has no hope in hell of saving the patient.

The Medical-4, DEX-8 brain surgeon, though, can make the throw on a roll of 5+.

Sounds about right. (GM can message to fit the circumstances.)

 

[dean]

How about considering it the skill of 'operating inside a steep gravity well' then, instead?

Yes, that logic works just fine for me as well. By and large, it seems to me that most pilots of large interstellar vessels would never need to land inside a deep gravity well or atmosphere. Indeed, flying small craft might be a hobby of some pilots, but I think many would actually look down on that activity with distain. It's probably pretty dangerous to fly in atmosphere anyway... I mean, when personal flying machines become as prevalent as ground-cars are today, accidents would likely be fewer but more fatal.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, that logic works just fine for me as well. By and large, it seems to me that most pilots of large interstellar vessels would never need to land inside a deep gravity well or atmosphere.

Most peope forget that (in CT, at least) a vessel with a 1G M-Drive is restricted to worlds Size 7 and smaller because they cannot make escape velocity from Size 8+ worlds. This means high ports only on Size 8+ worlds.

So, that would support your thought, here (at least a little).

 

[atpollard]

For your medical example, I'd probably go with something like: 15+ throw required. +2 DM per Medical skill. +2 DM if DEX 8+.

That way, it takes a pretty skilled surgeon to perform the brain surgery, and the average joe has no hope in hell of saving the patient.

That's just my personal preference. I started out with the old Basic and Advanced D&D, which has left me with a strong bent towards everything deserves a small chance of success and a small chance of failure unless it is physically impossible (No, you cannot use a motorcycle and a ramp to jump into orbit ... ask me again and I may need to slap you). I prefer a roll of 2 to always fail and a roll of 12 to always succeed (1 in 36 chance of each). Automatic Hits and Impossible Tasks just rub me against the grain.

I can still remember the results of a die roll in 1984 where the character shot an arrow to split the wand of a Wizard about to destroy a group of his friends. I would never want to rob a Traveller player of the chance for an unforgettable moment. ("Do you remember the time when the ship's Gunner was killed by that shot to the head and the Steward used his medic-0 skill to save his life.")

 

[boomslang]

To put it simply... In order to be a Pilot, you've got to learn X and Y. With Ship's Boat, you only learn X.

Thus, a Pilot can be a Ship's Boat pilot because he also knows X. But, a Ship's Boat pilot cannot be a Pilot because he doesn't know Y.

I like your subsequent analysis, but I need to point out an important factor you've overlooked: under BT (and here I mean 'BT = CT minus HG2'), small craft use a different engineering setup than big craft do.

Big craft require computers to operate their m-drives, but small craft do not (so long as they have bridges).

I'm sure the physics of gravitics are similar, but the operation of the flight systems must differ above/below 100 dtons.

(IMTU, although they're separate phenomena and technologies, gravitics and jump drive are derived from the same breakthrough physics equations; just as a jump field won't form around a sub-100dt hull, neither will acceleration compensation work on something that small, and ergo, no computer is needed for small craft, but you'd better have enough acceleration couches installed for everyone aboard...)

It's one skill set to be able to point a vehicle's nose skyward and fly to the moon, it's a more-complicated skill set to tell a non-AI computer to perform the same task and then competently supervise the process yourself while it executes.

Which raises a thought-provoking CT issue: does a small craft with a computer installed need to run a Maneuver program, or can it still be driven manually, and if it does run a Maneuver program -- either from choice or necessity -- does it require Pilot skill to operate it thus? The rules would seem to imply that no, it doesn't require Pilot skill (cf. the Fighter), which leads back to the idea that the drive itself requires a different technique to operate.

One proposal: Pilot assumes acceleration compensation; the reason it's Pilot-1 = SBoat is that the unfamiliar experience of being slammed around in an acceleration couch reduces the Pilot's effectiveness as he tries to operate the controls. Conversely, a Boater who sits down at the helm of a big craft will have no real skill at getting the computer to operate the drives for him... at least not without splattering unsecured personnel and cargo against the bulkheads...

 

[Supplement Four]

Automatic Hits and Impossible Tasks just rub me against the grain.

You could still keep the 15+ throw and use your snake-eyes-always-fail-but-box-cars-always-succeed method. Just like in D&D when the AC was so high the character couldn't hit it, but a natural 20 is considered a hit, no matter the target.

My problem would be giving someone who knows nothing about brain surgery a 3% chance of success. That's way too "giving".

But, I do understand your point about splitting the wand with the arrow below.

I'd be much more inclined to use the "boxcars always succeed" rule on a throw like the arrow than I would on something like brain surgery.



Another way to handle this, btw, is to give the character a check on a stat. Keep the brain surgery roll of 15+ as mentioned above. But, give the guy a +1 DM if he can roll EDU or less check.

For example: The throw is...

Roll 15+ to succeed at the brain surgery.
DMs: +2 per level of Medical skill; +2 if DEX 8+

Additional DM: +1 if EDU or less is thrown on 2D.



What does this translate to? Well, you're now allowing anybody to succeed on the brain surgery throw with a throw of exactly 12 if they have a DEX 8+ and if they throw 2D for EDU or less.

If I wanted it to be "possible" for the everyman to achieve the throw, I'd probably do it that way.

I can still remember the results of a die roll in 1984 where the character shot an arrow to split the wand of a Wizard about to destroy a group of his friends. I would never want to rob a Traveller player of the chance for an unforgettable moment. ("Do you remember the time when the ship's Gunner was killed by that shot to the head and the Steward used his medic-0 skill to save his life.")

No argument here. Those types of games you remember and talk about for the rest of your life. Those are the "good old days".

 

[Supplement Four]

I like your subsequent analysis, but I need to point out an important factor you've overlooked: under BT (and here I mean 'BT = CT minus HG2'), small craft use a different engineering setup than big craft do.

What is "BT"?

It's one skill set to be able to point a vehicle's nose skyward and fly to the moon, it's a more-complicated skill set to tell a non-AI computer to perform the same task and then competently supervise the process yourself while it executes.

I think you're not dis-agreeing. I think you're putting "meat" on what I said. You're describing what the "X" and the "Y" could be.

...does a small craft with a computer installed need to run a Maneuver program, or can it still be driven manually, and if it does run a Maneuver program -- either from choice or necessity -- does it require Pilot skill to operate it thus? The rules would seem to imply that no, it doesn't require Pilot skill (cf. the Fighter), which leads back to the idea that the drive itself requires a different technique to operate.

Agreed. I don't think small craft use the computer programs that 100+ ton craft use.

 

[atpollard]

My problem would be giving someone who knows nothing about brain surgery a 3% chance of success. That's way too "giving".

What about a 3% chance of having JOT-0 function in any particular situation?

In the end, I find that Darwinism deals with people who rely too heavily on that 1 in 36 chance.

 

[Supplement Four]

What about a 3% chance of having JOT-0 function in any particular situation?

One way I use JOT, btw (not that you're asking!), is when a non-combat throw is bricked by exactly 1 point. When this happens, I allow the player with the JOT skill to throw 1D for his skill level or less. This is a JOT check. If successful, he gets to attempt the task again for free (he's being resourceful).


So, let's say our Medical-4, DEX-8, brain surgeon above, also has JOT-1. Remember, after all the DMs, he really had a 5+ throw to make.

Let's say he throws a 4 (exactly one point lower than what's needed). He can enact the JOT check, if he wants to. He'll throw 1D, looking for a "1" on the throw. If successful, he is allowed to make the task a second time as if the first one never happened.



For combat throws, I do the same thing with the Tactics skill. The policy of only allowing it when the throw is missed by exactly 1 point (almost made it!) keeps it from being overpowering in the game, expecially if you're dealing with a JOT-4 character or a Tactics-3 character.

 

[BlackBat242]

For real-world examples of "Pilot-1 = Ship's Boat-0, but not vice-versa"...


USAF: Pilots of large multi-engine jets (C-17, C-5, B-52, B-1) start their flight training just like the fighter pilots do... in a single-engine turboprop trainer.

USN: Helmsmen/Navigators for that nuke-powered aircraft carrier start their training in small <50' boats, and move up in size several times during their training.

Commercial Merchant ships: Ship's officers move up through several levels of qualification, based on ship type and speed. Some have a limit placed on their qualification, restricting them to certain maximim sizes of ships, or certain areas, while others qualify for more types... with the most coveted being the "any ocean, any tonnage" rating of a true Master Mariner.

 

[atpollard]

For real-world examples of "Pilot-1 = Ship's Boat-0, but not vice-versa"...

Sure, clutter the issue with facts.

In your opinion, would this imply that the Pilot skill should be progressive:

Pilot-0 = trained in small craft (<100 dTons)

Pilot-1 = trained in adventure class ships (100 to 1000 dTons)
and small craft.

Pilot-2 = trained in (sub 10k dTon ships), adventure class ships
and small craft.

Pilot-3 = trained in (sub 100k dTon ships), (sub 10k dTon ships),
adventure class ships and small craft.

Pilot-4 = trained in (100k+ dTon ships), (sub 100k dTon ships),
(sub 10k dTon ships), adventure class ships and small craft.

... and conversely, do some USAF pilots become "masters of Turboprop trainers", do some USN helmsmen become "masters of small <50' boats", etc.


To focus,
Should ship's boat skill be treated as Pilot-0 for the first time you get it and +1 to Pilot skill for each additional receipt of Ship's Boat or Pilot?
or
Should some people become 'experts' in the smallest craft and other's master progressively larger craft?

This is an OPINION issue, there is no definitive answer, just a possible majority consensus.

 

[Ishmael]

... and conversely, do some USAF pilots become "masters of Turboprop trainers", do some USN helmsmen become "masters of small <50' boats", etc.

I dunno
..... can a crack bomber pilot handle a fighter plane really really well?
..... can an ace PT boat Capt pilot a battleship really really well?

large vessels will handle differently than small ones...

==========================================

I always thought it had less to do with tonnage as it does with whether the ship is jump-capable or not. In that case, I'd say ship's boat is a subset of pilot and thus pilot-2 is same as ship'sboat-2, yet ship'sboat-2 is only pilot-1.

Maybe the skill needed to handle larger ships is more than smaller ones ( less margin for error ) so the skill vs. certification is good too and both ideas should be used together.

 

[Supplement Four]

Pilot-0 = trained in small craft (<100 dTons).

I don't think Pilot-0 should be an actual training step. The zero level skills should be reserved for people who've picked up bits and pieces of information and experience over the years.

A Pilot-0 shouldn't be formalized training. It should be more akin to someone who's spent some time with a pilot (maybe a family member, good friend, co-worker) and watched the process. Maybe he reads up on the subject. Maybe he's even "flown" a time or two when his pilot friend allowed him to take the controls.

If you're going to study, you might as well go ahead and get the full Level-1 skill. Under Book 4, a person can be taught a Level-1 skill in as little as six weeks (if all the throws roll favorably).

 

[atpollard]

I don't think Pilot-0 should be an actual training step. The zero level skills should be reserved for people who've picked up bits and pieces of information and experience over the years.

A Pilot-0 shouldn't be formalized training. It should be more akin to someone who's spent some time with a pilot (maybe a family member, good friend, co-worker) and watched the process. Maybe he reads up on the subject. Maybe he's even "flown" a time or two when his pilot friend allowed him to take the controls.

If you're going to study, you might as well go ahead and get the full Level-1 skill. Under Book 4, a person can be taught a Level-1 skill in as little as six weeks (if all the throws roll favorably).

There currently appears to be no mechanism in CT character generation to get Pilot-0 (no bonus or penalty), but a character with Pilot-1 attempting to operate a small craft would function as Ship's Boat-0 (pilot skill minus 1). With 'Pilot skill = Ship's Boat skill', Pilot-0 could represent the free Pilot skill gained during basic training with any roll for Pilot or Ship's Boat granting a +1 to Pilot skill (which now includes ship's boat). It actually matches the CT experience system fairly well by creating a chance for a 'no-penalty' Pilot-0 skill - like an abandoned weapon skill.