Pilot vs Ship's Boat skill

[atpollard]

Since the following quote has generated so many responses in a thread dedicated to another topic, I thought it best to respond here.

But the CT system itself was full of odd things (why did a 95 ton shuttle and a 100ton shuttle require different piloting skills?), subsequent versions rarely looked at them, merely adding more chrome, sometimes contradicting earlier things.

The ‘question behind the question’ is “What is the difference between the Pilot and Ship’s Boat skills?”

The simple answer is ‘size’, but the fact that ‘Pilot’ can be used as ‘Ship’s Boat-1’ and ‘Ship’s Boat’ can be used as ‘Pilot-1’ clearly shows a strong relationship between the two skills. Let me offer a slightly different ‘personal’ view on these two skills.

The PILOT skill is most often used to guide a Ship (100+ dTon) or Starship (Jump 1+ capable Ship) to/from the 100 diameter jump limits and between worlds (or gas giants or asteroid belts) in a star system. Using an Earth nautical analogy, this is like a blue water navigator or pilot on a sailing ship – someone trained to sail for an extended time without visual reference points.

The SHIP’S BOAT skill is most often used to guide a Small Craft (less than 100 dTon) to and from the surface of a world to orbit. To again use an Earth nautical analogy, this is like a harbor pilot – someone familiar with the local hazards and trained to safely negotiate the transition from open water to sheltered berth.

From this view, the size of the craft is actually secondary to the function of the man at the controls. PILOT is the skill to expertly travel between worlds (which can also be used to fly from orbit to a planet’s surface). SHIP’S BOAT is the skill to expertly to fly from orbit to a planet’s surface (which can also be used to travel between worlds).

In the real world, there are some ports where local conditions are so extreme that the harbor REQUIRES a ship to be navigated into port by a ‘pilot’ specifically trained in local conditions. These ‘Harbor Pilots’ are shuttled out to meet an approaching ship and take control of guiding it into port. Such a case could exist for a world and starport orbiting a binary star or a gas giant – any situation where landing might not be a ‘routine’ task. In these cases, an approaching ship could be required to hold position or orbit at 10 diameters to await the arrival of a Port Certified Pilot (Ship’s Boat 2+) who will observe the pilot until the ship is within 2 diameters and then take control and guide the ship into port or to the surface.

A 50 dTon small craft that regularly flies from the High Port to a Gas Giant to skim fuel, might have a pilot (Pilot-1) to navigate deep space and a co-pilot (Ship’s Boat-1) to skim the gas giant.

A very busy port with a great deal of surface to orbit traffic, could have a 400 dTon ‘shuttle’ piloted by someone with Ship’s Boat skill at no penalty.

In my opinion, the 100 dTon break point between Pilot and Ship’s Boat is just a convenient point of general reference – a guideline. The skills really do represent distinct but related tasks in which the Referee should exercise common sense.

Arthur

 

[Major B]

Thanks for explaining the distinction and relationship.

This brings to mind a question relating to fleet pilot pools. Do you feel that there is a significant difference between what craft the pilot is controlling?

I deduce from what you wrote that there is a difference between the skills used by the pilot of a fighter designed to operate either in atmosphere or close orbit versus the pilot of an unstreamlined, long-endurance fighter that conducts patrols or strikes in-system but not necessarily in the COACC area. The first would have Ship's Boat skill and the second would have Pilot skill.

However, on a ship with a number of fighter pilots, is there any discernable penalty when you take the pilot of an atmospheric light fighter and put him behind the controls of an atmospheric heavy fighter? Both are using Ship's Boat skill but the different craft have different performance characteristics. Would you apply a penalty or not in this case?

 

[Supplement Four]

The simple answer is ‘size’, but the fact that ‘Pilot’ can be used as ‘Ship’s Boat-1’ and ‘Ship’s Boat’ can be used as ‘Pilot-1’ clearly shows a strong relationship between the two skills.

You mean: Pilot can be used as Ship's Boat at one level lower (i.e. Pilot-2 = Ship's Boat-1); but Ship's Boat cannot be used as Pilot...

That's what you meant, Right?

 

[Icosahedron]

This is pretty much how I play it. There is no definite break at 100dT, but a small-craft pilot (the archetypal Ships Boat) would find it difficult to control a very large vessel.
I have extended this concept to introduce a new skill - Helm - which allows the piloting of very large craft that have little seat-of-the-pants feel and rely mainly on remote cameras and a rapport with Engineering Deck. These leviathans do not land at all and have no link to Ships Boat skill (nor vice-versa). Helm skill covers non-Book 2 craft of over 5000dT (though again, the break is a guide.
Another factor, of course, is that Pilot skill requires a knowledge of exactly how to enter and leave Jump-space, firing up the Jump-grid etc,etc, which is not necessary for Ships Boats. Neverthless, IMTU Ships boat pilots have some degree of cross-training.
Also, IMTU, Ships Boat has links with Air-Raft skill (I can't remember if it does in canon, cos I've been using my own rules for so long), since IMHO the control of these craft is quite similar, in that it involves negotiating Close Orbit and Atmospheric conditions.

 

[far-trader]

I always find myself wishing when this topic comes up that the rules had instead said Atmospheric Flight and Space Flight. The first dealing with insertion into atmo, control via lifting surfaces, and dealing with gravity. The second dealing with zero-g maneuvering and orbital mechanics. No difference for size of ship, just where you're trying to pilot it.

So you want to land or take off from a world surface, with atmo or not, you use Atmospheric Flight. But if you want to plot an orbital trajectory or travel between two worlds you use Space Flight.

 

[jfetters]

Not to deviate from CT too much here, but FWIW, that is what they did in TNE regarding Pilot vs. Astrogation. Pilot = atmosphere & interface flight, Astro = interplanetary and jump. (Navigation was for on-world navigation like sailing)

It was confusing as hell after dealing with CT forever, but once I got used to it, I liked the distinction.

 

[Foxroe]

Hi there! First time poster, but long-time Classic Traveller fan!

I would have to agree with the commentary so far. This always used to bother me, but as has been said, I think that difference is in both purpose and method. I think the "helm skill" comment is pretty much how I had envisioned it. Ship's Boat skill is more fly-by-stick and Pilot skill is more reading instrumentation and button-pressing (not that either skill would exclusively use these methods).

-Fox

 

[Major B]

I like Far Trader's distinction - the naming convention is the cause of the confusion.

For the sake or argument - what do you think of Pilot as a cascade skill with Pilot (close orbit) and Pilot (space)?

If that is acceptable then what about Pilot (Grav Vehicle) since these vehicles really "fly" and can reach orbit?

And how about Pilot (jump) as another of the cascade choices to differentiate between jump piloting and in-system piloting?

The other tack would be to make the cascade choices the systems or category of systems that are piloted rather than a subdivision of the activity of piloting. Then the choices are Pilot (Small Craft), Pilot (Spaceship), Pilot (Starship), Pilot (Grav Vehicle), etc.

Which is a better definition for the cascade choices - the object of the skill or the activity itself?

 

[dean]

I personally feel that there is really no comparison between atmospheric piloting and operating a starship.

Ships Boat, in keeping with the archaic meaning of a craft used to move been an ocean-going vessel and the shore, would primarily be used to move between low orbit and the surface. Because it has to operate in space, the pilot needs skill at maneuvering at zero-gravity, also making "Ships Boat" skill more than that of merely flying an atmospheric craft.

Pilot, on the other hand, encompasses all the skills that go toward operating a jump-capable ship into and out of jump space. Once again, because the vessel operates in zero-G, skill will be required in that area, like in ships boat, but the two skills are not cross-compatible outside that range, IMHO.

It may be possible to consider that if the zero-G operating controls were similar (depends on YTU), one could allow a Ships Boat skilled person operate a starship in the zero-G realm (but not take her into jump), and a Pilot could operate a Ships Boat (but not pilot in it in the atmosphere).

It may be, for example, the high LL systems require Union Pilots to man all ships coming into a system past a certain point. This is also the perfect excuse to get ships to stop at a customs point and be boarded. Other planets may require certified atmospheric pilots be only ones allowed to pilot any vessels (boats or atmosphere-capable starships) inside their atmosphere (all for the safety of the inhabitants of the planet, of course). In fact, I can see the latter being SOP on most mid-LL, high-Pop worlds.

Air/Raft is a whole different kettle of beans, simply because of the (general) lack of atmospheric control surfaces and it's method of propulsion (theorized in other threads to become less effective at higher altitutes/in orbit). The two craft can be used for the same purpose (to a limited extent), but the methodology and practice of the two skills (I feel) are two different things.

Happy Travelling!

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, I thought I recalled TNE doing it "right"

The cascade idea is good too Major B. I can't recall how MT did it but it might be worth a check. They cascaded a lot more skills there iirc.

I've been cheating the solution for years in CT rather than worry about it though. I just ignore the Ship's Boat skill, it's all Pilot and applies to any spacecraft

 

[atpollard]

You mean: Pilot can be used as Ship's Boat at one level lower (i.e. Pilot-2 = Ship's Boat-1); but Ship's Boat cannot be used as Pilot... That's what you meant, Right?

Actually, I meant that Pilot can be used as Ship's Boat at one level lower (i.e. Pilot-2 = Ship's Boat-1) and Ship's Boat can be used as Pilot at one level lower (i.e. Ship's Boat-2 = Pilot-1). But I was wrong...

IMTU I use them as I have indicated and as far-trader suggested (Ship's Boat = Atmospheric Flight and Pilot = Space Flight) and allow them to be reciprocal.

As the rules are written, the Pilot skill completely swallows the Ship's Boat skill - making Ship's Boat a fairly useless skill (ie. a character with pilot-2 is much better off than a character with pilot-1 and ship's boat-1). That's one point for the 'CT needs Fixing' column in my opinion.

 

[Major B]

Far Trader,

MT didn't handle it so well.

from Player's Manual page 37: "Pilot (Serves as Ship's Boat minus 1): The individual can operate starships and large interplanetary ships. This skill includes both interplanetary and interstellar aspects of large ship operation. ... The term Pilot refers to interstellar ships; much of the interstellar ship operation, however, is similar to that of interplanetary craft, and Pilot skill applies to large interplanetary craft (100 tons and up).

To pilot a starship from a world's surface to jump point: Routine, Pilot, Navigation."

from page 38: "Ships Boat: The individual is familiar with the operation of small interplanetary craft collectively known as ship's boats. These craft range from five to 100 tons and include shuttles, lifeboats, launches, ship's boats, and fighters.

To pilot a shuttle from a world's surface to orbit: Routine, Ship's Boat, Sensor Ops, 5 min."

So the only distinction here is the displacement tonnage of the vessel - note that both task descriptions use the verb pilot and both start on a planetary surface, further blurring the distinction. Also note that pilot transfers to Ship's Boat with a -1 penalty but the reverse is not true.

 

[aramis]

Actually, I think CT/MT and TNE all got the paradigm VERY wrong.

Space Navigation (in-system) aka Helm should have nothing to do with astrogation (interstellar), and interface operations should be a separate skill from helm in all sizes.

ISTR 2300 geting it right.

 

[far-trader]

Thanks for the check Major B, must have been somewhere else I was thinking of as that is pretty much identical to CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

I can see where confusion might spring up on this issue (I remember being confused about it back in the day), but I don't, today, see any issue with the distinction.

They're two different skills used for similar jobs--but the jobs are different enough to require different skills.

Just because you've taken the family 18 foot inboard/outboard out into the bay a couple of times (Ship's Boat) doesn't mean you know a hill of beans about piloting an aircraft carrier (Pilot).

I imagine the relationship between Ship's Boat and Pilot are somewhat akin to that example.

Pilot is used for large, complicated starships. Typically, a Navigator supports the pilot on these large vessels.

Ship's Boat is used for small craft--only interplanetary craft. Space Fighters. Shuttles. Pinnaces. Ship's Boats. Launches. That sort of thing.







As for atmospheric craft, there's a whole other set of skills used to govern those types of vehicles.







One thing to remember is that Classic Traveller skills are broad. A good GM is encouraged (in multiple parts of the game) to make calls on skills that makes sense.

CT skills were never meant to be hammered down and specific.

Thus, it's clear that a good GM would look at the Pilot skill and declare that Pilot (any level) can serve as Grav Craft-1. That makes sense. Pilots have to land their vessels on worlds all the time. The grav drive is used.

By the same token, Ship's Boat skill (any level) may allow characters to pilot Grav Craft at Skill-1.

 

[far-trader]

I can see where confusion might spring up on this issue (I remember being confused about it back in the day), but I don't, today, see any issue with the distinction.

They're two different skills used for similar jobs--but the jobs are different enough to require different skills.

Just because you've taken the family 18 foot inboard/outboard out into the bay a couple of times (Ship's Boat) doesn't mean you know a hill of beans about piloting an aircraft carrier (Pilot).

I imagine the relationship between Ship's Boat and Pilot are somewhat akin to that example.

OK, but...

Just because you're a freshly trained pilot of an aircraft carrier doesn't mean you know a hill of beans about operating the family 18 foot inboard/outboard around the bay either. And yet CT says oh yes you do. That's the issue basically.

And you think you won't need a Navigator to get that Cutter from Earth to Mars?

Navigation in CT is another nit to pick.

As for atmospheric spacecraft, there is no whole other set of skills used to govern it. Pilot and Ship's Boat make no distinction. It's entirely dependent on the streamlining of the ship.

I agree CT skills are meant to be used broadly, and yet Ship's Boat is so narrowly defined as to be nearly pointless. Go figure. And actually many if not all of the skills are pretty specifically defined, it's just that some allow a wider application than others. Off-hand the only skill that is not narrowly defined and interpreted broadly (too broadly) is Jack-o-Trades.

Thus, it's clear that a good GM would look at the Pilot skill and declare that Pilot (any level) can serve as Grav Craft-1. That makes sense. Pilots have to land their vessels on worlds all the time. The grav drive is used.

No, I don't see that at all. Not all ships are streamlined so not all Pilots are going to have that experience. Certainly not all the time. Even if that were the case it makes no sense to me that the two are even related. Sheer complexity and size alone will mean the two don't operate at all alike. It's like saying that an A380 pilot can can fly a Piper Cub.

I can better see the Ship's Boat skill applied to Grav Craft (think Piper Cub to Ultra-light) but the skill description disagrees with you. That's what Air-Raft skill is for, and you can't use that to fly a Shuttle either.

 

[Major B]

The more this thread develops, the more it seems to me that IMTU I'm going to tie piloting skill to the object piloted.

Using Pilot as a cascade skill with the ship/craft/thing being piloted as the qualifier removes you from the size and atmosphere distinctions and simply connotes skill with one system. Then the GM can extrapolate what penalty to apply based on the similarity (or lack thereof) of the new system the pilot wants to try.

For example, Bob the scout gains skill Pilot(100dT Scoutship)-2 before he musters out. He is proficient at taking a 100dT Scoutship from a planet surface, through the atmosphere, to the jump point, through jump, and through the atmosphere to planetfall on the other end.

If he joins a adventuring group with an 200dT A2 Far Trader and wants to try his hand at piloting, there will be some penalty because the controls, aerodynamics, computer commands, etc. will be similar but different. Maybe he will have a -1 penalty to his skill here. Similarly if he attempts to pilot a 50dT modular cutter he will also have a -1 penalty but still be able to pilot the craft. If he tried to pilot a grav vehicle he will have some familiarity with grav systems from landing his ship but will be operating a radically different system so he has a -2 penalty or Pilot-0 so he may be able to pull it off but it won't be pretty and he better not try anything fancy. If he gets crazy on shore leave and decides to fly off in someone's helicopter he'll have no hope.

Similarly, a character with Pilot(50dT Pinnace)-1 would have a -1 penalty when attempting to pilot a 100dT Scoutship in-system but would have no clue how to plot or operate the jump drive.

It may be a bit cumbersome to keep track of how many vessels the character is skilled on but I like to have added detail in the characters IMTU. Any thoughts?

 

[far-trader]

I don't think it's too cumbersome Major B. I like it and have played at least one game that did skills much like that. It's a little more book-keeping but just keep it simple and it should be great. When you start breaking it down by model year you've gone too far

 

[Supplement Four]

Just because you're a freshly trained pilot of an aircraft carrier doesn't mean you know a hill of beans about operating the family 18 foot inboard/outboard around the bay either. And yet CT says oh yes you do. That's the issue basically.

I really don't see that as a problem.

To put it simply... In order to be a Pilot, you've got to learn X and Y. With Ship's Boat, you only learn X.

Thus, a Pilot can be a Ship's Boat pilot because he also knows X. But, a Ship's Boat pilot cannot be a Pilot because he doesn't know Y.

And you think you won't need a Navigator to get that Cutter from Earth to Mars?

Obviously, pilots skilled in Ship's Boat, and pilots skilled in Pilot, both know a little something about Navigation. The game rules actually state this in Book 2. Otherwise, it would be impossible for a single person to do the job.

But, a single-seat fighter can easily make the journey from Earth to Mars--no Navigator requires (actually, the Ship's Boat operator is doing his own navigation).

Or, consider the 100 ton Scout. One person can operate that vessel safely, in and out of, jump.







Remember, the "breaks" are listed in the Starship Construction rules of Book 2.

Pilots with minimum Pilot-1 expertise are needed on all 100+ ton vessels.

Pilots with miminum Ship's Boat-1 expertise is needed for all 99- ton vessels.

A Navigator with minimum Navigation-1 is needed on all 200+ ton vessels.

An Engineer with minimum Engineering-1 is needed on all 200+ ton vessels, and an extra engineer is needed per extra 35 tons of combined drives and power plant.

A steward with minimum Steward-0 is needed if High Passengers are to be carried aboard the vessel, and an additional steward is needed per eight high passengers.

A medic with minimum Medic-1 is needed on all 200+ ton starships (not on interplanetary craft). And, there must be one medic per 120 passengers carried.

A gunner with minimum Gunner-1 may be hired for each turret on a ship.

Small craft require a single gunner in addition to the pilot. This means the pilot of the single-seat 10 ton fighter must have minimum skills of Pilot-2 and Gunnery-2 in order to use that vessel in combat (under the combined positions rule).

Not all ships are streamlined so not all Pilots are going to have that experience. Certainly not all the time.

Well, this is why it's up to the GM. I did say make the call when it made sense.

Even if that were the case it makes no sense to me that the two are even related.

A starship has four types of drives, right?

1 - Jump Drive
2 - Maneuver Drive
3 - Orientation Drive (attitude thrusters)
4 - Grav Drive (used in landing the vessel)

Parts 3 & 4 are considered part of the Maneuver Drive. And, the Grav Drive is used when the ship lands on a world.

So, yes, I'd say there's a relationship there.

I can better see the Ship's Boat skill applied to Grav Craft (think Piper Cub to Ultra-light) but the skill description disagrees with you. That's what Air-Raft skill is for, and you can't use that to fly a Shuttle either.

Think of it like this.

Air/Raft skill teaches expertise in Z.

Ship's Boat skill teaches expertise in Y and Z

Pilot skill teaches expertise in X, Y, and Z.




This is not unlike the Pistol and Handgun skill.

In Book 1, a character can gain skill in an AutoPistol. This is a separate skill than Revolver.

In Book 4, a character can gain skill in the Pistol skill, which provides expertise in both AutoPistols and Revolvers.

In Book 5, a character can gain skill in the Handgun skill, which provides expertise in AutoPistols, Revolvers, and Body Pistols.



What is the implication here? Obviously, skills should be tailored to the character and how he gained expertise. Homeworld, TL, circumstances, and other factors should be considered.

This is why a Merchant, from Book 1, is considered to have a minimum of Skill-0 in all weapons in that book, while a Doctor, from Sup 4, is only considered to have expertise in weapons gained during character generation and is subject to the unskilled weapon rule for all weapons in Book 1.

It's about background and the GM making choices that make sense.

 

[jfetters]

Actually, I think CT/MT and TNE all got the paradigm VERY wrong.

Space Navigation (in-system) aka Helm should have nothing to do with astrogation (interstellar), and interface operations should be a separate skill from helm in all sizes.

ISTR 2300 geting it right.

I think that TNE made the step in the right direction, but I agree that there should be a distinction between interplanetary astrogation and interstellar astrogation. There is, after all, a rather big difference.

Also, just for grins, here is how the TNE Pilot cascade worked:

Airship
Fixed Wing
Rotary Wing
Glider
Interface/Grav

And Astrogation is stated thus:

The individual has training in interplanetary and interstellar astrogation. This includes the ability to compute courses and orbits in real space, and courses and entry parameters into jump space.

It then goes on to say that this skill can be used by Pre-Stellar civilizations, but marked with an asterisk to denote lack of jumpspace knowledge. May as well split the skills AFAIAC... but then, this is the CT thread and not the TNE thread...