Pilot Skill
- Thread starter eclipse
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snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Morning (PST) Eclipse,
I have not looked deeply into T20 character skills'feats, but have some knowledge of how Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and Traveller: The New Era runs similar skills. With the preceeding stated, here is my best guess.
The skills/feats are two separate abilities that share some of the same basic knowledge. However, there are some differences in the responses and more advanced knowledge levels for the two skills/feats of Pilot/Starship and Pilot/Ship's boat.
So, my feeling is that both skills need to be listed separately.
However, using the Pilot/Starship or Pilot/Ship's boat could be applied, with reduced levels, when trying to Pilot the other vessel. A ship's boat pilot could take the helm of a starship if all the qualified pilots were unable to perform the duty. The reverse is also true.
I have not looked deeply into T20 character skills'feats, but have some knowledge of how Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and Traveller: The New Era runs similar skills. With the preceeding stated, here is my best guess.
The skills/feats are two separate abilities that share some of the same basic knowledge. However, there are some differences in the responses and more advanced knowledge levels for the two skills/feats of Pilot/Starship and Pilot/Ship's boat.
So, my feeling is that both skills need to be listed separately.
However, using the Pilot/Starship or Pilot/Ship's boat could be applied, with reduced levels, when trying to Pilot the other vessel. A ship's boat pilot could take the helm of a starship if all the qualified pilots were unable to perform the duty. The reverse is also true.
D20/D3e rules are confused. Ride (PH72) FREX requires specialization.) Perform, OTOH, says "you are capable of one form of performance per rank." (PH 71). They may fix this in D3.5e
IMHO, D20 isn't GURPS.
Mandatory subspecialties can yeild odd results, particularly if you need certain total skill ranks for prestigue classes or feats. Look carefully at the various class skill points and think about the game balance effects of splitting the skill.
IMHO, D20 isn't GURPS.
As I look at it the skill is how good you are at being a pilot, the feats you have then represent learning and practising on the various subtypes of piloting so that you can use your skill to its fullest.
A sports car, a 4x4 and a 7.5 ton lorry are all different animals. And yet I can drive them all because I can drive, by the same token it took me less than an hour to learn to drive a horse drawn wagon many a year ago.
To a pilot it is a matter of learning the handling of a new craft so that you can apply your best skill to it.
Piloting is like the BaB, it represents how good you can be with something you are familiar with.
My 2 cr worth on a warm and sunny afternoon
A sports car, a 4x4 and a 7.5 ton lorry are all different animals. And yet I can drive them all because I can drive, by the same token it took me less than an hour to learn to drive a horse drawn wagon many a year ago.
To a pilot it is a matter of learning the handling of a new craft so that you can apply your best skill to it.
Piloting is like the BaB, it represents how good you can be with something you are familiar with.
My 2 cr worth on a warm and sunny afternoon
I agree with Captain Jonah.
On P.111, in the Vessel Feat description you have the following
"The Character may use Driving or Pilot skill (whichever is appropriate) when operating a vessel of the specified group."
and some blurb about if you don't have the feat for that specific group, you're at -4 penalty. if it's a vehicule in the same group, you're only at -2.
Forex:
I've got Vesse(Aircraft)/Jet Craft and try ti pilot a propeller aircraft, I'm at -2. If I try my hands on a starship, I'm at -4.
The skills seems to be
"how much you know of basic piloting, 3D orientation, how winds/gravity works" and the like
While the Feats is
"How much do you know about Starship, Helicopter, Hovercraft, Water Ships specifically"
On P.111, in the Vessel Feat description you have the following
"The Character may use Driving or Pilot skill (whichever is appropriate) when operating a vessel of the specified group."
and some blurb about if you don't have the feat for that specific group, you're at -4 penalty. if it's a vehicule in the same group, you're only at -2.
Forex:
I've got Vesse(Aircraft)/Jet Craft and try ti pilot a propeller aircraft, I'm at -2. If I try my hands on a starship, I'm at -4.
The skills seems to be
"how much you know of basic piloting, 3D orientation, how winds/gravity works" and the like
While the Feats is
"How much do you know about Starship, Helicopter, Hovercraft, Water Ships specifically"
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Lo Sandman, Capt. J, and the rest of the usual suspects,
I agreed that if you can pilot a ship's boat that you and pilot a starship. Further, I agree that there would be a modifier that affects the Skill be applied to a similar vehicle. However, when listing the skills I feel that they should be listed separately. Pilot/Starship 4 and Pilot/Ship's boat 3 not as Pilot/7. The PC does not have a Pilot Skill of 7, he does have Pilot/Starship-4, Pilot?Ship's Boat-3.
Hope that clears up what I meant in my earlier post. Yipes, dinner is burning gotta go.
I agreed that if you can pilot a ship's boat that you and pilot a starship. Further, I agree that there would be a modifier that affects the Skill be applied to a similar vehicle. However, when listing the skills I feel that they should be listed separately. Pilot/Starship 4 and Pilot/Ship's boat 3 not as Pilot/7. The PC does not have a Pilot Skill of 7, he does have Pilot/Starship-4, Pilot?Ship's Boat-3.
Hope that clears up what I meant in my earlier post. Yipes, dinner is burning gotta go.
Usual Suspects !
(Looks around to see who you are talking to).
Honest officer, he was dead when I found him
Ok lets follow this a bit further. A lvl 6 character can have pilot (if a class skill) at 10
So he can either be a pilot (starship) 10 or a pilot (starship) 7 / pilot (shipsboat) 3 . However the skill covers a large number of subtypes so your "hotshot" pilot who can fly anything will quickly become the not so good pilot because his skill is split across starship/ships boat/grav/aircraft. Alternatively since the max skill is 10 he could take pilot starship 10, pilot shipsboat 5, pilot grav 5 and pilot aircraft 2 to match his character background and players wishes. This costs him a vast number of points and leaves him able to do nothing else. Spliting the skill penalises a pilot by forcing him to take extra skills or to cap his existing skill.
The way I look at this is that the pilot skill is raw talent and the ship type feats represent the knowledge/training on how to apply that talent to this type of craft.
Hope your dinner made its save against fire
I have the T20 book and I have just looked over the the Piloting skill and the Vessel Feat. Piloting skill is just that, Piloting. You do not need to split your piloting skill between vessel types in T20, the Vessel Feat does this. Without the appropriate Vessel Feat you cannot use the Drive or Pilot skill to operate that vehicle. This is in the Benefit section of the Vessel Feat.
Sorry Thomas, your wrong on this one.
Your humble rules lawyer, Grimjack
P.S. Eclipse, your bill of 1,000,000 MC is on the next X-boat. I expect prompt payment or I'll see you in court.
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"There is no such thing as too much firepower"
Hi Thomas
I think the comparison to BAB is apt: you don't have to split your BAB across all the weapon feats you have. I think Pilot represents your character's ability to grasp and function in a 3-D movement environment, whereas Drive represents ability in a 2-D medium. The technical expertise to con a particular type of vessel is represented by the Feat. There might be a case for having separate skills for "Helmsman" to con large Td vessels which don't "fly" like "fighters" ("Make 10 radians to port, Mr Christian and half speed from the Maneuver drive") or jumbo jets, or for the elements of submarine control, but any ship where the "pilot" steers the thing by the seat of hir pants should use pilot or drive. It may be that with capital vessels having similar M-drive ratings to their little friends, Pilot is the appropriate skill to use anyway; 'pends what feel you want to have for the ships of the line IYTU.
Grimjack is bang-on on this one. In d20, the pilot skill is a universal skill; you can pilot the vessel types you have feats for (for others, you take penalties to your pilot skill roll, based on your unfamiliarity). Star Wars d20 uses a similar rule.Originally posted by Grimjack:
I have the T20 book and I have just looked over the the Piloting skill and the Vessel Feat. Piloting skill is just that, Piloting. You do not need to split your piloting skill between vessel types in T20, the Vessel Feat does this. Without the appropriate Vessel Feat you cannot use the Drive or Pilot skill to operate that vehicle. This is in the Benefit section of the Vessel Feat.
Sorry Thomas, your wrong on this one.
Your humble rules lawyer, Grimjack
I'm leaning toward the unified Pilot Skill Theory.Originally posted by Borodin:
Thanks to all that have posted on this thread. I was having a similar issue with the pilot skill and had been planning on making it several separate skills, but have now seen the error of my ways. Thanks again! (My players thank you too, tho they don't realize it.)
I may muck the cross feat penalties a bit thought.
Handling a 1000 Ton Frigrate is different than zooming with a grav bike by a bit.
I'll make a hard difference between driving skill and pilot skills though.
And it should show in the game. I don't have enough D20 experience to know if a -4 is a big penalty or not, but IMHO it doesn't seems to be the case. -8 to go frmo Grav Bike to Frigate?
There is a Hard Difference. Lookup the chart for the Vessel/xyz feat. It lists which skill applies for which group. Even if you have Pilot at rank 8 but no Vessel/land/wheeled/track/etc, you're a very poor driver.
You may be a Crack Driver on a 4WD speed truck, but you don't have to bother about Z-Axis traffic either so don't try to fly without training, you'll crash
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Lo Sea Tyger,
Piloting is defined as the determination of the course or position of a ship or airplane by any of various navigational methods or devices.
So what I am hearing is that A PC that Has a Pilot Skill of 7 can use the same modifiers on any craft of similar design from the git go. Sorry, I have friends that are pilots who have told me that transition from one airplane model they are familiar with to a different, but similar craft is not an immediate transfer of skill. That is how I base my impression of the skills. Someone else spoke about transitioning from a car to 8.3 short ton truck. Until I have driven that truck for a time period I won't be as good as I was with the car. Even the best Pilot can't jump from piloting a starship to a ship's boat and pilot them both equally well. However, since this is a game reality does not have to be perfectly reflected, so I will concede to your point.
Piloting is defined as the determination of the course or position of a ship or airplane by any of various navigational methods or devices.
So what I am hearing is that A PC that Has a Pilot Skill of 7 can use the same modifiers on any craft of similar design from the git go. Sorry, I have friends that are pilots who have told me that transition from one airplane model they are familiar with to a different, but similar craft is not an immediate transfer of skill. That is how I base my impression of the skills. Someone else spoke about transitioning from a car to 8.3 short ton truck. Until I have driven that truck for a time period I won't be as good as I was with the car. Even the best Pilot can't jump from piloting a starship to a ship's boat and pilot them both equally well. However, since this is a game reality does not have to be perfectly reflected, so I will concede to your point.
Grimjack is bang-on on this one. In d20, the pilot skill is a universal skill; you can pilot the vessel types you have feats for (for others, you take penalties to your pilot skill roll, based on your unfamiliarity). Star Wars d20 uses a similar rule. </font>[/QUOTE]Originally posted by Sea Tyger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grimjack:
I have the T20 book and I have just looked over the the Piloting skill and the Vessel Feat. Piloting skill is just that, Piloting. You do not need to split your piloting skill between vessel types in T20, the Vessel Feat does this. Without the appropriate Vessel Feat you cannot use the Drive or Pilot skill to operate that vehicle. This is in the Benefit section of the Vessel Feat.
Sorry Thomas, your wrong on this one.
Your humble rules lawyer, Grimjack
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Lo Capt. J,
Sonar Tech Tom Rux was able to prevent a major fire, however the steak was a little more well done than I like.
I am probably missing the fine points of Skill Ranking in T20/D20, since I have not dug into the any of the handbook chapters, with the exception of Chapters 12 and 13. In the case of Pilot skill I am going with the knowledge I have gained from friends who are pilots, some even fly for the military. My other bit of knowledge is from several other RPGs, including Classic Traveller. With that said and appearing to be at odds with the majority I'll concede the floor and let y'all play in peace.
(Looks around to see who you are talking to).
Honest officer, he was dead when I found him
Ok lets follow this a bit further. A lvl 6 character can have pilot (if a class skill) at 10
So he can either be a pilot (starship) 10 or a pilot (starship) 7 / pilot (shipsboat) 3 . However the skill covers a large number of subtypes so your "hotshot" pilot who can fly anything will quickly become the not so good pilot because his skill is split across starship/ships boat/grav/aircraft. Alternatively since the max skill is 10 he could take pilot starship 10, pilot shipsboat 5, pilot grav 5 and pilot aircraft 2 to match his character background and players wishes. This costs him a vast number of points and leaves him able to do nothing else. Spliting the skill penalises a pilot by forcing him to take extra skills or to cap his existing skill.
The way I look at this is that the pilot skill is raw talent and the ship type feats represent the knowledge/training on how to apply that talent to this type of craft.
Hope your dinner made its save against fire </font>[/QUOTE]
Sonar Tech Tom Rux was able to prevent a major fire, however the steak was a little more well done than I like.
I am probably missing the fine points of Skill Ranking in T20/D20, since I have not dug into the any of the handbook chapters, with the exception of Chapters 12 and 13. In the case of Pilot skill I am going with the knowledge I have gained from friends who are pilots, some even fly for the military. My other bit of knowledge is from several other RPGs, including Classic Traveller. With that said and appearing to be at odds with the majority I'll concede the floor and let y'all play in peace.
Usual Suspects !
(Looks around to see who you are talking to).
Honest officer, he was dead when I found him
Ok lets follow this a bit further. A lvl 6 character can have pilot (if a class skill) at 10
So he can either be a pilot (starship) 10 or a pilot (starship) 7 / pilot (shipsboat) 3 . However the skill covers a large number of subtypes so your "hotshot" pilot who can fly anything will quickly become the not so good pilot because his skill is split across starship/ships boat/grav/aircraft. Alternatively since the max skill is 10 he could take pilot starship 10, pilot shipsboat 5, pilot grav 5 and pilot aircraft 2 to match his character background and players wishes. This costs him a vast number of points and leaves him able to do nothing else. Spliting the skill penalises a pilot by forcing him to take extra skills or to cap his existing skill.
The way I look at this is that the pilot skill is raw talent and the ship type feats represent the knowledge/training on how to apply that talent to this type of craft.
Hope your dinner made its save against fire
</font>[/QUOTE]Nothing wrong with a nice slab of well done kkree ops sorry beef, a heaped plate of chips/fries and something cold to drinkOriginally posted by Thomas Rux:
Lo Capt. J,
Sonar Tech Tom Rux was able to prevent a major fire, however the steak was a little more well done than I like.
I am probably missing the fine points of Skill Ranking in T20/D20, since I have not dug into the any of the handbook chapters, with the exception of Chapters 12 and 13. In the case of Pilot skill I am going with the knowledge I have gained from friends who are pilots, some even fly for the military. My other bit of knowledge is from several other RPGs, including Classic Traveller. With that said and appearing to be at odds with the majority I'll concede the floor and let y'all play in peace.
To the point you were making in your last post.
The feats for vehicle types represent the familiarity with those vehicles that practice brings. Your real world pilot with 1000 hours in an F15 and 10 hours in a microlight is going to be a much better F15 pilot. However when he has 1000 hours of F15 and 1000 hours of microlight then he will be as good a pilot in one as in the other (allowing for slightly different performance of aircraft
).The older Traveller versions don't mesh completely with the D20 system so some differences will crop up from time to time but you have to allow that for both piloting and attacks the feats are part and parcel of the skill the character has.
A pilot who has 10000 hours of starship piloting who tries to fly the ships pinnace is not going to be anywhere near as skilled (-4) however after a few months of practice (takes the feat) he becomes much more capable of using his full skill.
Look at this another way. A pilot 10 (starship)will be treated as pilot 6 (small craft) due to the -4 for not having the feat.
Why not work out a broader range of penalties for the no feat, say starship - ships boat - air - grav. then -4 if skill is either side of yours and -8 if more than 0ne step away. This way your starship pilot with skill 10 is skill 6 with a ships boat and only skill 2 with a jet aircraft.
I understand the real life problems and differences of driving a car, truck, delivery van, and 2ton truck, so your view on the splitting up of the drive or piloting skill does have merit. But, the makers of T20 have decided that this is the way to go with their system. And, no one said that's the way it has to be IYTU.
HHHmmmmm..... This Feat per vehicle type thing has started me wondering also how many feats a character gains per level. You would quickly use up your feats just by learning how to operate a new vechicle. Lots of us in the real world know how to drive or pilot several different kinds of vehicles. This is in addition to all of the other feat like skills we have learned.
Here is a random thought. Has anyone ever figured out how many Feats they have based on the T20 ones? If so, does the number of Feats you know exceed the number a character (let's say at 10th level) can have?
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"There is no such thing as too much firepower"
the makers of T20 have decided that this is the way to go with their system. And, no one said that's the way it has to be IYTU. HHHmmmmm..... This Feat per vehicle type thing has started me wondering also how many feats a character gains per level. You would quickly use up your feats just by learning how to operate a new vechicle. Lots of us in the real world know how to drive or pilot several different kinds of vehicles. This is in addition to all of the other feat like skills we have learned.
Here is a random thought. Has anyone ever figured out how many Feats they have based on the T20 ones? If so, does the number of Feats you know exceed the number a character (let's say at 10th level) can have?
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"There is no such thing as too much firepower"
My personal approach to this situation is using situational modifiers; i.e. applying a -2 to the characters piloting skill until they have spent time 'in the seat'.
The time is variable, based on the the actions that they perform
I consider this to be the opposite of the Ace Pilot ability, familiarity vs. unfamiliarity...
The time is variable, based on the the actions that they perform
I consider this to be the opposite of the Ace Pilot ability, familiarity vs. unfamiliarity...
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening Capt J, Grimjack, Forged, and the rest of the crew here abouts,
Thanks for the replies, both pro & con, on my comments. I see both sides of the <insert particular named> skill post. I stated, not very clearly after rereading the post, that Traveller, any flavor, has room for everyone's view of the rules mechanics as long as they do not totally abandon the basic intent of the game. Since I have not studied the rules in any depth I can go with the majority on this subject. OF course this is subject to change.
Thanks for the replies, both pro & con, on my comments. I see both sides of the <insert particular named> skill post. I stated, not very clearly after rereading the post, that Traveller, any flavor, has room for everyone's view of the rules mechanics as long as they do not totally abandon the basic intent of the game. Since I have not studied the rules in any depth I can go with the majority on this subject. OF course this is subject to change.
