No more Imperium...
- Thread starter jackleg
- Start date
Very cool -- thanks!
It reminds me of the classic American immigrant experience, where the first generation hangs on to their old country ways, the second rejects them in favor of the new country, and the third embraces the old in nostalgia mode. If the new country is a horrible place to live (instead of a good one like, say, America) I suppose the third generation would be likely to just *go back* to the old country.
-- Bryan
Something similar could be argued to happen to societies on worlds which do have viable biospheres. Here look at say the infrastructure of a modern western city and the condition it is in now. How well maintained it is, even in a relatively young city such as Perth (Western Australia) there have been catastrophic failures of systems like sewage, water supplies etc as a result of poor or no maintenance.
How structurally sound are some highrises built in the 1920s for example. Now these failures being localised do not in themselves cause a catastrophic change to society but over time it would build up until the society would no longer be recognisable to an outside observer.
How structurally sound are some highrises built in the 1920s for example. Now these failures being localised do not in themselves cause a catastrophic change to society but over time it would build up until the society would no longer be recognisable to an outside observer.
P
Pickles
Guest
Heh. Probably more structurally sound than some highrises built in the 1960s ...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Heh. Probably more structurally sound than some highrises built in the 1960s ...
I see the Imperium more like the era of pride in work and craftsmanship. Stuff is built functional and lasts. While the Solomani might be more like the modern era, mass manufactured stuff that doesn't last, all about glitz, costs a bunch, and is obselete before it leaves the factory.
Gvadakoung
SOC-6
Well, my take on the OTU has always been that it exists for players who want an established setting, but was an accessory to the rules of the game, which could be applied to a home-grown setting, as well.
I use the OTU, and have chosen to map and flesh out Antares Sector for my personal campaign, rather than using packaged adventures or the Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches. I like developing my own setting, and feel that the ambiguity is useful because it allows me to decide how powerful the nobility is (IMTU, highly connected & influential but restricted by an honor system on one hand and a bureaucracy on the other), what the various "scattered client states" are like, etc.
An Imperium sourcebook might well be a thing I would buy. But I would not hesitate to tinker with the setting to suit my own game. While it might be nice to see some inconsistencies ironed out, I don't want everything nailed down tight - I would rather have room to improvise and adjust.
I use the OTU, and have chosen to map and flesh out Antares Sector for my personal campaign, rather than using packaged adventures or the Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches. I like developing my own setting, and feel that the ambiguity is useful because it allows me to decide how powerful the nobility is (IMTU, highly connected & influential but restricted by an honor system on one hand and a bureaucracy on the other), what the various "scattered client states" are like, etc.
An Imperium sourcebook might well be a thing I would buy. But I would not hesitate to tinker with the setting to suit my own game. While it might be nice to see some inconsistencies ironed out, I don't want everything nailed down tight - I would rather have room to improvise and adjust.
With the help of hindsight, I can say that the T5 draft addresses many of these points without explicitly postulating the Imperium... somewhat like how CT put labels on things before the Imperium took root. Mainly this is due to rules mechanics rather than essay text on the Imperium.
i.e. the "all marines are battledress troops" problem. Battle dress is not automatic, in T5.
In T5, it is a Cruiser.
In T5, it is an Escort.
In T5, it is still a Cruiser.
T5 blends the various bridge rules, sort of. I can see CT, MT, and T4 influences there.
T5 presumes a Big Ship Imperium; but Small Ships are most important to players.
This is where an essay on the Imperium is needed. Fill text that is not rules-based.
i.e. the "all marines are battledress troops" problem. Battle dress is not automatic, in T5.
In T5, it is a Cruiser.
In T5, it is an Escort.
In T5, it is still a Cruiser.
T5 blends the various bridge rules, sort of. I can see CT, MT, and T4 influences there.
T5 presumes a Big Ship Imperium; but Small Ships are most important to players.
This is where an essay on the Imperium is needed. Fill text that is not rules-based.
Last edited:
Something to bear in mind is the crushing economics of running a game business.
An RPG can't be sustained as a product line on the basis of backlist sales. There are only so many people playing your game. Once they all have the rulebook, your sales on that product are done. Now how do you keep the line alive? You can sell:
* rulebook expansions;
* adventures;
* settings;
* accessories (GM screens, miniatures, etc.).
Of these, the best sellers by a wide margin are rulebook expansions and settings. They sell best because they're bought by both players and GMs, unlike adventures and screens, which are bought only by GMs.
But here's the rub -- Selling rulebook expansions and settings is good for business only in the short term. Eventually, the weight of all those new rules and fidgety setting details collapses the whole system. No one, including the publisher, can keep it all straight. Traveller and D&D are the two most venerable RPGs out there. We've seen this happen 3.5 times with D&D. We've seen it happen X? times with Traveller. X? is hard to count because the game has gone through so many rules systems. No one can say anymore what's 3I canon because of all the contradictions in print. Are capital ships large or small? Are pirates a terror or a myth? Do marines wear BD or not? Just like actual religion, the answers depend on which chapters of the Bible you choose to read.
If you demand dogma, you need to resign yourself to the idea that eventually it's going to become unwieldy. At that point, you either watch the situation descend into sectarian fighting over what's the true canon or you push the reset button. It's a hard decision to make, but there comes a point where the publisher must choose: let the game self-destruct under its own unwieldiness and the squabbling of its fans, or wipe the slate clean and hope that a fresh start will retain enough old fans and attract enough new ones to keep the product commercially viable.
Steve
An RPG can't be sustained as a product line on the basis of backlist sales. There are only so many people playing your game. Once they all have the rulebook, your sales on that product are done. Now how do you keep the line alive? You can sell:
* rulebook expansions;
* adventures;
* settings;
* accessories (GM screens, miniatures, etc.).
Of these, the best sellers by a wide margin are rulebook expansions and settings. They sell best because they're bought by both players and GMs, unlike adventures and screens, which are bought only by GMs.
But here's the rub -- Selling rulebook expansions and settings is good for business only in the short term. Eventually, the weight of all those new rules and fidgety setting details collapses the whole system. No one, including the publisher, can keep it all straight. Traveller and D&D are the two most venerable RPGs out there. We've seen this happen 3.5 times with D&D. We've seen it happen X? times with Traveller. X? is hard to count because the game has gone through so many rules systems. No one can say anymore what's 3I canon because of all the contradictions in print. Are capital ships large or small? Are pirates a terror or a myth? Do marines wear BD or not? Just like actual religion, the answers depend on which chapters of the Bible you choose to read.
If you demand dogma, you need to resign yourself to the idea that eventually it's going to become unwieldy. At that point, you either watch the situation descend into sectarian fighting over what's the true canon or you push the reset button. It's a hard decision to make, but there comes a point where the publisher must choose: let the game self-destruct under its own unwieldiness and the squabbling of its fans, or wipe the slate clean and hope that a fresh start will retain enough old fans and attract enough new ones to keep the product commercially viable.
Steve
A statement in an earlier post triggered an intriguing idea (forgive me if it's not original). It might satisfy some of the players' hunger for settings without becoming unwieldy quite so fast.
That is, instead of publishing something like The Spinward Marches, which gives info on every planet in the sector, include info only on those few systems that contain important, high-population worlds. Other systems could be mapped or not, but no details would be covered. GMs could fill those in however it suits their campaign.
Of course, nothing stops GMs right now from erasing the UPPs of all those lo-pop, backwater worlds in the Spinward Marches and filling in their own. Nothing, that is, except canon, which stipulates the UPP of every world in the Imperium and straitjackets GMs into thinking that they must use them. This sort of product would generate less canon and, one hopes, allow a slower growth curve in overhead details for everyone to keep track of.
At the very least, I think that may be how I structure my next MTU campaign -- start with just the hi-pop worlds and fill the spaces between only as needed.
Steve
That is, instead of publishing something like The Spinward Marches, which gives info on every planet in the sector, include info only on those few systems that contain important, high-population worlds. Other systems could be mapped or not, but no details would be covered. GMs could fill those in however it suits their campaign.
Of course, nothing stops GMs right now from erasing the UPPs of all those lo-pop, backwater worlds in the Spinward Marches and filling in their own. Nothing, that is, except canon, which stipulates the UPP of every world in the Imperium and straitjackets GMs into thinking that they must use them. This sort of product would generate less canon and, one hopes, allow a slower growth curve in overhead details for everyone to keep track of.
At the very least, I think that may be how I structure my next MTU campaign -- start with just the hi-pop worlds and fill the spaces between only as needed.
Steve
Large.
Pirates exists, but they're far rarer than popular myth would have it.
All regular Imperial marines are BD trained, but they don't all wear BD at the same time; other marine organizations don't necessarily train all their marines to wear BD. The Duchy of Regina Marine Corps, for instance, only trains about a third of its marines in BD.
See how easy it can be?
Hans
Do I need to add a:
?It's not canon that mandates that everybody must use canon. It's a fallacy lots of people comes up with on their own free-hand selves. And the way to combat this is to tell them that they don't need to follow canon slavishly.
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You know, I keep seeing this "Canon is for writers you silly gamers." sentiment, but I don't really buy it.
If gamers toss canon out willy nilly they run a very good risk of messing up the game to the point that it will break. At the very least it'll mean supplements are less useful since they'll have to vet them for the way they do it. In it's most extreme they won't be useful at all.
If gamers toss canon out willy nilly they run a very good risk of messing up the game to the point that it will break. At the very least it'll mean supplements are less useful since they'll have to vet them for the way they do it. In it's most extreme they won't be useful at all.
Rather, at that point you have a homebrew setting, which the Traveller rules and tools heartily support.
Last edited:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep, I'm not arguing that
Just the idea that gamers should somehow not be interested in canon is the best approach. I think the middle of the road is best. By which I mean stick to canon and know canon well, where it is available to you, but don't be afraid to fill in the gaps between on your own. If that's clearer.
This is a big part of it, obviously. As canon piles atop canon, products become so intertwined that every change a GM makes reverberates through a half-dozen books on his shelf. What's worse, every time the publisher makes a change, either because one was necessary, was dramatically important, or because the author didn't remember what was written before as well as the fans do, that also reverberates through a half-dozen books on store shelves (and triggers debates in online forums). It's nothing special about RPGs; drop in on a Star Wars forum sometime for an eyeful of all-out dogma war. Or, for that matter, pick up a history book ... or a newspaper ...
Steve
Last edited:
Ok, I have now read through all the posts in this thread (including mine that I had completely forgotten about it). I wonder if there is a way out of the impasse. Here is a heretical thought...why not set the default setting in the Coreward Extents of the Zhodani Consulate.
Zhodani society resembles Imperial society in many ways. Frontiers of the Core Expeditions would provide the frontier for those who crave it. The Zhodani social structure can easily be mapped onto T5 careers and that way we can build an entirely new history from the ground up whilst keeping important "signposts"/dates of the Imperial Campaign. It would also serve as a radically different basis for Traveller.
Vote here for the Consulate Campaign.
Zhodani society resembles Imperial society in many ways. Frontiers of the Core Expeditions would provide the frontier for those who crave it. The Zhodani social structure can easily be mapped onto T5 careers and that way we can build an entirely new history from the ground up whilst keeping important "signposts"/dates of the Imperial Campaign. It would also serve as a radically different basis for Traveller.
Vote here for the Consulate Campaign.
It's definitely a Traveller setting. The coreward expeditions and all that.
Only one world in each of those systems is detailed ..leaving the rest of the system <zero to ?? wolrds and worldlets > left to the GM to figure out
