New radiation ship hit effects

[kilemall]

While we’ve been talking Rob’s BCS game, I posted about my CT/HG game and how it differs from published or preferred dev Traveller ship games. It occurred to me that one aspect I had not mentioned before could be of general interest- new types of hits for radiation weapons.

In addition to crew effects, weapon and non-hardened/fib computers, I have two effects not defined before to my knowledge- hull and fuel.

I track on hull hits as tonnage like the rest of my hit system. So if 10 tons go to hull, that’s counted. Hulls are normally rated by their tonnage 1:1, so free traders have 200 hull points.

Thats with a full set of hardpoints- if a ship is specced with less hardpoints, it gets more hull points. Thats because I see hardpoints as taking up space in between outer hull and inner volume and if they aren’t there that leaves more room for structural strength improvements, more backup power/fuel/network/life support lines thus making the ship more redundant.

Hull hit effects degrade my sensor ability for the hull mounted VLA long range systems, causes streamlining to drop to close structure and then open structure cannot land, and ultimately causes crits as cables get cut and redundant connections break. At the highest damage level they restrict acceleration.

If hull hits exceed hull points, the ship breaks apart.

The idea behind radiation hits affecting hulls is neutron embrittlement. If the ship is being hit hard enough for particle damage, then that’s enough for embrittlement and affecting underlying systems.

The other hit, fuel, doesn’t destroy the tankage or content. My view is that part of the design and use of fuel is wrapping most of the hull with at least part of the tankage precisely as part of radiation mitigation. That’s its designed double duty function.

Instead, radiation fuel hits turn refined fuel into unrefined fuel. The ship has to run the fuel through the refiner to be able to safely jump.

 

[ady]

While we’ve been talking Rob’s BCS game, I posted about my CT/HG game and how it differs from published or preferred dev Traveller ship games. It occurred to me that one aspect I had not mentioned before could be of general interest- new types of hits for radiation weapons.

In addition to crew effects, weapon and non-hardened/fib computers, I have two effects not defined before to my knowledge- hull and fuel.

I track on hull hits as tonnage like the rest of my hit system. So if 10 tons go to hull, that’s counted. Hulls are normally rated by their tonnage 1:1, so free traders have 200 hull points.

Thats with a full set of hardpoints- if a ship is specced with less hardpoints, it gets more hull points. Thats because I see hardpoints as taking up space in between outer hull and inner volume and if they aren’t there that leaves more room for structural strength improvements, more backup power/fuel/network/life support lines thus making the ship more redundant.

Hull hit effects degrade my sensor ability for the hull mounted VLA long range systems, causes streamlining to drop to close structure and then open structure cannot land, and ultimately causes crits as cables get cut and redundant connections break. At the highest damage level they restrict acceleration.

If hull hits exceed hull points, the ship breaks apart.

The idea behind radiation hits affecting hulls is neutron embrittlement. If the ship is being hit hard enough for particle damage, then that’s enough for embrittlement and affecting underlying systems.

The other hit, fuel, doesn’t destroy the tankage or content. My view is that part of the design and use of fuel is wrapping most of the hull with at least part of the tankage precisely as part of radiation mitigation. That’s its designed double duty function.

Instead, radiation fuel hits turn refined fuel into unrefined fuel. The ship has to run the fuel through the refiner to be able to safely jump.

Nice ideas, especially the fuel hits. Another thing to consider is that radiation is persistent. Irradiated things (armoured hulls, equipment, fuel, etc) can stay irradiated for a time, possible causing further damaging effects to crew and electronics long after the nuke, Particle or Meson beam hit the ship - rolling for extra damage each turn perhaps? Irradiated ships might need to be abandoned if the crew want to avoid further damage and irradiated wrecks might need to be decontaminated before being reboarded and remanned.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Irradiated things (armoured hulls, equipment, fuel, etc) can stay irradiated for a time, possible causing further damaging effects to crew

I think you meant "superpower mutations in" ...

 

[ady]

I think you meant "superpower mutations in" ...

Maybe cause rerolls on the psionic powers table!

 

[bookwyrm]

Maybe cause rerolls on the psionic powers table!

Or a save to not lose any/all psionic powers.

 

[Enoki]

Nice ideas, especially the fuel hits. Another thing to consider is that radiation is persistent. Irradiated things (armoured hulls, equipment, fuel, etc) can stay irradiated for a time, possible causing further damaging effects to crew and electronics long after the nuke, Particle or Meson beam hit the ship - rolling for extra damage each turn perhaps? Irradiated ships might need to be abandoned if the crew want to avoid further damage and irradiated wrecks might need to be decontaminated before being reboarded and remanned.

There are four types of radiation (at least in reality)

Alpha: A helium nucleus without electrons. Has little penetration and is only a health hazard if you ingest it.
Beta: A free electron. Similar to an alpha particle.
Gamma: This is a packet of energy so-to-speak. At the low end they're called X-rays. High energy ones are hard to stop.
Neutron: This one only occurs (normally) when you have a nuclear reaction going on. This one is the wrecking ball of the four. It can only be stopped (no don't get all esoteric here) by slowing it through collisions with other atomic particles and then absorbing it into some atomic particle. It's the one that can make you glow in the dark by changing isotopes and atoms into stuff that is radioactive from stuff that isn't radioactive.

So, unless the bad guys are hitting you with neutrons, stuff won't get "irradiated." Particle weapons using a neutron stream would be a means. Meson weapons might if they created neutrons from those mesons. And, of course, we have the ever-popular neutron bomb...

 

[ady]

So, unless the bad guys are hitting you with neutrons, stuff won't get "irradiated." Particle weapons using a neutron stream would be a means. Meson weapons might if they created neutrons from those mesons. And, of course, we have the ever-popular neutron bomb...

Yes, that's what I assume, neutrons being the most common and used for effect in mostly high end space weapons - PAs, Mesons and nukes (and possibly fusion guns?). Apart from Nuclear Dampers, the only defence from a radiation hit is to either distance yourself from the beam/blast area, or have some dense material to absorb it. Trouble is, by absorbing , the material itself (armour, rock or lead shielding, your vacc suit helmet) becomes radioactive in turn and emits damaging radiation itself. At Chernobyll, the russians had to bury all the vehicles they used in lead and concrete because the metal was irradiated. Some poor people even ended up with radiation poisoning from irradiated water radiators when thieves looted them from the nearby abandoned tower blocks and sold them on (so always run a rad counter over any 'war surplus' bargains!). I imagine that a PA spinal mount would make a target ship a very radioactive hazard for years to come. Striker did allow nuclear dampers to be used to remove the radiactivity from contaminated areas, but for low tech worlds, or damaged ships with no damper, it could be a nasty hazard.

 

[Enoki]

Yes, that's what I assume, neutrons being the most common and used for effect in mostly high end space weapons - PAs, Mesons and nukes (and possibly fusion guns?). Apart from Nuclear Dampers, the only defence from a radiation hit is to either distance yourself from the beam/blast area, or have some dense material to absorb it. Trouble is, by absorbing , the material itself (armour, rock or lead shielding, your vacc suit helmet) becomes radioactive in turn and emits damaging radiation itself. At Chernobyll, the russians had to bury all the vehicles they used in lead and concrete because the metal was irradiated. Some poor people even ended up with radiation poisoning from irradiated water radiators when thieves looted them from the nearby abandoned tower blocks and sold them on (so always run a rad counter over any 'war surplus' bargains!). I imagine that a PA spinal mount would make a target ship a very radioactive hazard for years to come. Striker did allow nuclear dampers to be used to remove the radiactivity from contaminated areas, but for low tech worlds, or damaged ships with no damper, it could be a nasty hazard.

That would be contaminated. Heavily contaminated stuff has lots of radioactive particles on or in it. For example, if you had radioactive isotopes of oxygen present, these could bond to iron in a vehicle body forming iron oxides (aka rust) and the vehicle would be radioactive as a result. It wasn't "irradiated" but rather, contaminated.

At Chernobyl, a very common contaminant was, is, carbon-based molecules. You had tons and tons of highly radioactive graphite that made up most of the reactor. This exploded and burned, not necessarily in that order but this happening is really, REALLY, bad. All that carbon turned into things like CO2, CO, etc., and then reacted with other stuff. Plants absorbed some of it. You had ash and other stuff with glow in the dark carbon in it.

 

[kilemall]

I’m pretty sure HG particle weapons would constitute a war crime especially against zero atmo settlements/stations. Nasty enough to require crews on ice and a mess in general.

 

[Enoki]

I’m pretty sure HG particle weapons would constitute a war crime especially against zero atmo settlements/stations. Nasty enough to require crews on ice and a mess in general.

Well, spraying people with neutrons and making their corpses glow in the dark is probably not something most people would approve of. That's pretty much what you're doing here. I'd assume fusion weapons in particular would give off globs (a very precise unit of measurement, of course) of neutrons as these occur in normal fusion reactions with hydrogen to helium. You get one stray neutron per fusion. That's one serious number of serial killers if you ask me.

 

[ady]

Well, spraying people with neutrons and making their corpses glow in the dark is probably not something most people would approve of. That's pretty much what you're doing here. I'd assume fusion weapons in particular would give off globs (a very precise unit of measurement, of course) of neutrons as these occur in normal fusion reactions with hydrogen to helium. You get one stray neutron per fus

I’m pretty sure HG particle weapons would constitute a war crime especially against zero atmo settlements/stations. Nasty enough to require crews on ice and a mess in general.

I agree, radiation weapons are nasty, maybe legally classed the same as nukes? It makes me wonder how to include persistant radiation effects in systems like Highguard, maybe continue to roll on the radiation damage table in successive turns after a hit has taken place? Maybe allow Nuclear Damper armed ships to decontaminate (thanks for the correct terminology Enoki!) themselves to stop the continuous radiation damage? It would be more realistic, but very rough on small damperless ships like many escorts, SDBs, traders, smallcraft and fighters.

It also makes me reconsider the use of particle weapon armed ships like the Gazelle. If you do include persistant radiation damage, the Gazelle is a terrifying ship, even to much larger escorts and destroyers. "Oh S**T! It's powering up it's PAs! WE SURRENDER! WE SURRENDER!"

 

[Enoki]

I agree, radiation weapons are nasty, maybe legally classed the same as nukes? It makes me wonder how to include persistant radiation effects in systems like Highguard, maybe continue to roll on the radiation damage table in successive turns after a hit has taken place? Maybe allow Nuclear Damper armed ships to decontaminate (thanks for the correct terminology Enoki!) themselves to stop the continuous radiation damage? It would be more realistic, but very rough on small damperless ships like many escorts, SDBs, traders, smallcraft and fighters.

It also makes me reconsider the use of particle weapon armed ships like the Gazelle. If you do include persistant radiation damage, the Gazelle is a terrifying ship, even to much larger escorts and destroyers. "Oh S**T! It's powering up it's PAs! WE SURRENDER! WE SURRENDER!"

I wouldn't worry about 'residual' radiation in the long term. What would be dangerous is a serious neutron burst causing a huge rise in short-term, immediate, isotopes that decay within seconds to minutes. So, you might have for a few rounds of combat additional damage taken that falls off as an exponential curve. That is, say something like you take full damage the round the hit occurs. The next is say damage -1 or 2. The round after that is -2 to 4. The third round is -6 to 8. That's simple enough. Past that, the residual is mostly long-term radioactives that will have no effect on the immediate situation. The player can roll a year later for "shooting blanks" rather than being "potent" if you follow me for that.

Sure, the ship would need decontaminating after such a battle because it has become low-level irradiated from the hits it took, but those don't affect immediate combat. That sort of radiation hazard is one that takes weeks to months to be a danger.

 

[whartung]

I agree, radiation weapons are nasty, maybe legally classed the same as nukes? It makes me wonder how to include persistant radiation effects in systems like Highguard, maybe continue to roll on the radiation damage table in successive turns after a hit has taken place? Maybe allow Nuclear Damper armed ships to decontaminate (thanks for the correct terminology Enoki!) themselves to stop the continuous radiation damage? It would be more realistic, but very rough on small damperless ships like many escorts, SDBs, traders, smallcraft and fighters.

As I understand it, specifically with weapons, is that residual radiation is particulate based, not, well, radiation based. The micro dust from the components of the blast. The actual "radiation" damage is mostly just raw heat, and other "instant" damage (like from gamma radiation and such).

Now, I don't know. I don't know if you can irradiate metal (or whatever) with just raw radiation, like a microwave, or a flashlight, or a gamma ray, or anything like that. Obviously, I guess, something like that happens to containment vessels in nuclear reactors, but those are cooked for quite some time vs the brief exposure of an explosion.

And if lingering radiation is particle based, then that's likely not an issue in space combat. Its unlikely the warheads are detonating that close to the ship.It's more the intense heat wave that does the damage.

That doesn't mean something like a PA can't cook crew or short out circuits, its just that after the pulse is done, you're just back to normal.

 

[Badenov]

There are four types of radiation (at least in reality)

Alpha: A helium nucleus without electrons. Has little penetration and is only a health hazard if you ingest it.
Beta: A free electron. Similar to an alpha particle.
Gamma: This is a packet of energy so-to-speak. At the low end they're called X-rays. High energy ones are hard to stop.

Hard to stop is kind of a relative thing. At TL7, a foot of lead will stop a lot, and 4 feet of lead alternating with concrete will stop pretty much anything. I will agree that on a spaceship, 4 feet of lead alternating with concrete counts as hard. Who knows what TL 9 or 12 or 15 offer?

Neutron: This one only occurs (normally) when you have a nuclear reaction going on. This one is the wrecking ball of the four. It can only be stopped (no don't get all esoteric here) by slowing it through collisions with other atomic particles and then absorbing it into some atomic particle. It's the one that can make you glow in the dark by changing isotopes and atoms into stuff that is radioactive from stuff that isn't radioactive.

So, unless the bad guys are hitting you with neutrons, stuff won't get "irradiated." Particle weapons using a neutron stream would be a means. Meson weapons might if they created neutrons from those mesons. And, of course, we have the ever-popular neutron bomb...

Concur.

 

[mike wightman]

Using neutron beams as weapons is unlikely - neutral particles on the other hand...

That said if using gravitics then neutrons could be accelerated, but Traveller has not postulated that particular weapon system. If gravitcs can accelerate the neutrons to a moderate fraction of c so that they can be used in space combat - the half life of the neutron being a limiting factor - then you could bombard an enemy ship with a particle stream of neutrons.

 

[bookwyrm]

I've been considering allowing PA turrets on small ships, at least the high tech ones, and this thread has given me another layer of things to think about. Plus, I now have a better understanding of how to deal with radiation hits & damage.