Modifying surplus ships.

[Grav_Moped]

Jump governors always struck me a an odd bit of rule making, They seems to be designed as a work around for a non-existent problem. IE, they allow a J2 ship to make J1 Jumps without burning J2 Fuel. But the whole idea that Jump-2 engine always burn fuel equal to a J-2 seems on it's face to be a rather arbitrary "gotcha" type rule, designed to inconvenience.

It's a workaround for how it worked in first edition (LBB2'77). The original rule there meant mandatory refueling after each jump (and you used all the power plant fuel each trip also, regardless of how much -- or how little -- maneuvering or anything else you did during the trip). Meant ships were largely tied to starports unless you did some "creative" designs (example: the Type Y Yacht).

Seems a bit nonsensical, which is why they changed it. But at first, they couldn't just rewrite the rules as it might have messed with already-published materials* -- so they created an accessory to allow breaking it up into two jumps. Then, they just wrote the "use it all each trip" part out of the rules.



------------
* In hindsight, I'm pretty sure the "missing" 1Td in the Type A2 in Twilight's Peak is for the Jump Governor, though it's never called out as an individual engineering component. That A2 has 61Td cargo (A3, p. 6); replicating it in LBB2'81 gives 62Td cargo even if it did have 1Td set aside for a second (not installed) second turret. Should be the same in LBB2'77 since the ship is J2/2G (unlike the A2 in DA6, Night of Conquest, which is J2/1G and clearly a LBB2'77 design).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It is if it is a surplus Q-ship.

It's not enough for the players to declare that they don't want to pay for refined fuel, the referee has to declare it, i.e. Rule 0.

 

[kilemall]

I can think of a setting reason to restrict unrefined fuel capability- keeping commercial craft strictly to starport supply, not allowing for piracy/smuggling support, etc.

Then there are exceptions like an authorized Leviathan type mercantile explorer or perhaps privatized scouts.

Or a polity with a merchant marine that is the interstellar equivalent of the Republic of Venice, with ships that are in reserve and used in war.

Or subsidized ships get the reserve/military drive benefit.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You do whatever you want in your Traveller universe.

Agreed, that is Rule 0.

So long as the items exist somewhere in Traveller, and aren't specifically prohibited, then a ship built with them is a legal design.

You prohibit ships from using items from LBB 3, LBB5, Sup 7, by Referee fiat. Which is the opposite of building them by rule 0. You prohibit building those ships by waving the magic wand of Rule 0.

There is no rule stating you can use anything from any Traveller source in any design system.
Can a LBB2 ship use Meson Accelerators from Striker?
Can a LBB2 ship use the fuel-less drives from the Ancients ship?
Can we replace the power plant with a 2 kg anti-matter battery "provide[ing] almost unlimited current"?
Can we replace fuel and power plants with collectors, for free?
If the Gazelle can use too many turrets, your ship can too, right?

LBB2 ships are designed as described in the LBB2 rules.
LBB5 ships are designed as described in the LBB5 rules.
If you want to go outside that (which we obviously can), you ask the Referees approval (Rule 0).

A Free trader that is built with a Ground Car, Armored Fighting Vehicle, Helicopter or Motorboat instead of an Air/Raft does not suddenly become "not a book 2 design". Even if these items don't appear in LBB 2.

LBB2 specifically refers to vehicles from LBB3, so that would specifically be allowed.

You build those ships by following the rules as written.

Quite, I expect LBB2 ships to follow the rules in LBB2...

There is no indication that that is a LBB2 ship, but it is clearly stated that the subsidized merchant in Traders and Gunboats is clearly stated to be a Book 2 design. As is the Seeker.

At least the Seeker is not a RAW LBB2 ship, as it has 102 Dt of components in a 100 Dt hull.
Yet Canon says that it exists, by Rule 0...

But if you really want to stick with the idea that LBB2 designs can't use anything that's not in Book 2, then LBB5 designs can't use anything from LBB 2—unless specifically allowed. Seems fair, wouldn't you agree?

LBB2 ships can use LBB2 rules, and later sources with rules specifically for LBB2.
LBB5 ships can use LBB5 rules, and later sources with rules specifically for LBB5.

LBB2 ships can't use LBB5 components such as fuel purification plants or weapon bays.
LBB5 ships can't use LBB2 components such as cheap standard hulls.
Neither LBB2 nor LBB5 ships can use collectors or antimatter drives.

And, obviously, the Referee can override any of that.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Cannon is RAW, ...

No.

RAW is not just written, it's rules.
Canon is the entire official corpus written for Traveller, both story and rules.
RAW is part of canon, not the same thing. Canon is much more than RAW.

E.g. LBB2 and LBB5 contains rules, Supplement 7 contains story:

LBB0, p46:
__2. Books. Books are compendiums of rules, and range from 48 to 56 pages in length. For example, Book 4 (Mercenary) is aimed at players interested in military operations, and (in keeping with the individual orientation in Traveller) concentrates on small scale military operations. Book 5 (High Guard) provides rules dealing with space navies and large space ships.
__3. Supplements. At the other end of the spectrum from books are supplements, which tend to be compilations of data derived from Traveller rules. For example, Supplement 1 (1001 Characters) is simply a list of pregenerated characters; Supplement 2 (Animal Encounters) is a set of encounter tables. Often the contents of a supplement could be produced by a referee from the materials and rules already available, but supplements are priced low in the hopes that they will prove cost-effective.

Both are canon, the books are RAW.

 

[spank]

No,
Supplements do not contain stories, they contain "compilations of data derived from Traveller rules.", and as such are examples of thing that can be accomplished within the rules. Such as putting a fuel purifier in a LBB2 ship.

No.

RAW is not just written, it's rules.
Canon is the entire official corpus written for Traveller, both story and rules.
RAW is part of canon, not the same thing. Canon is much more than RAW.

E.g. LBB2 and LBB5 contains rules, Supplement 7 contains story:


Both are canon, the books are RAW.

 

[spank]

There do not need to be rules allowing you to use thing from Book 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 or any supplement, adventure, JTAS article or boardgame with each other all the rules are written to be used with each other. Especially when there is a specific example of just that happening. Otherwise you couldn't make money carrying cargo in your LBB5 design, because there is no rule in LBB 5 allowing cargo to be carried for money. No rules on how much money you make from it. No rules on financing. So do you expect to have to purchase your book 5 ship outright? Or are you going to use the rules from LBB2 to finance your design and make money carrying cargo?

Agreed, that is Rule 0.



There is no rule stating you can use anything from any Traveller source in any design system.
Can a LBB2 ship use Meson Accelerators from Striker?
Can a LBB2 ship use the fuel-less drives from the Ancients ship?
Can we replace the power plant with a 2 kg anti-matter battery "provide[ing] almost unlimited current"?
Can we replace fuel and power plants with collectors, for free?
If the Gazelle can use too many turrets, your ship can too, right?

LBB2 ships are designed as described in the LBB2 rules.
LBB5 ships are designed as described in the LBB5 rules.
If you want to go outside that (which we obviously can), you ask the Referees approval (Rule 0).


Quite, I expect LBB2 ships to follow the rules in LBB2...

LBB2 refers to specific vehicles from LBB3, "Air/rafts, ATVs, GCarriers, and speeders are covered in Book 3." But does not mention Hovercraft, Aircraft, Motorboats or specifically allow vehicles other than allowed. So does that mean a Free trader with a Hovercraft is not a LBB 2 Design?

LBB2 specifically refers to vehicles from LBB3, so that would specifically be allowed.

Maybe you should check the Errata. "Replace the sentence starting ―"The dual turret is…" with ―"A mining laser is installed in a single turret. The mining laser can function as a pulse laser minus 1 in combat situations." The cargo bay is reduced from three tons to one ton."

At least the Seeker is not a RAW LBB2 ship, as it has 102 Dt of components in a 100 Dt hull.
Yet Canon says that it exists, by Rule 0...

 

[coliver988]

as always, I enjoy the back and forth. But the arguments here remind me of the arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin: there is no real "right" answer as each ref and player will play in their TU. They all start from the same rules but as we've all noted, the rules can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. Words are tricky that way!

But it is fascinating to learn more about how people see the rules versus how I see the rules. I continue to learn more about Traveller and its nuances every day. Now if I could just actually run or play a Traveller game! (currently I am running 2 other games and playing in a home brew. And I've got about 3+ more game systems I want to run in as well before I'll try to circle back to a Traveller game. But I will run a Traveller game in the next year or so. At least I keep telling myself that)

 

[spank]

Fingers crossed that Mongoose rolls out some VTT support. Unfortunately the friendly local game store, and coordinating free time, have both become alot more scare.

But it is fascinating to learn more about how people see the rules versus how I see the rules. I continue to learn more about Traveller and its nuances every day. Now if I could just actually run or play a Traveller game! (currently I am running 2 other games and playing in a home brew. And I've got about 3+ more game systems I want to run in as well before I'll try to circle back to a Traveller game. But I will run a Traveller game in the next year or so. At least I keep telling myself that)

 

[spank]

It would seem so, once again from T&G, the Empress Marava. It seems to be a bit off from the Empress Nicholle, 46 Tons of cargo vs 61, 1 more turret, 1 more stateroom, and no double occupancy staterooms. I'd be interesting to see if you could make the numbers work. But even more interesting, Errata obliviates the governor,
Pages 23-26, Far Trader (type A2) (correction and omission): Missing notation that this design uses a custom hull. The Far Trader is capable of 2-G acceleration, the fuel tankage should be 60 tons, the standard design does not come with turrets or armament of any kind, the cargo bay is 46 tons, and the cost is MCr69.3 (including 10% discount for quantity production). The deckplan notes should have the jump governor, and any references to armament removed. On the A1 variant, the cargo capacity is 76 tons.

The Empress Nicholle seems an interesting case, inparticular because the adventure dictates that while it is a Jump-2 ship it can only make Jump-1, but still burns Jump-2 fuel, because the drive is old and malfunctioning. Also the adventure seems to assumes, and really seems to imply alot of wilderness refueling. " Refuelling can take place at the gas giant (if the system has one), or in an ocean on the world (if the world has a hydrographic percentage of at least 1, and a law level of less than 8). Otherwise, the refuelling must take place at a starport, and fuel
will cost Cr 100 per ton (unrefined)."
Alot of talk of unrefined fuel, and no mention of refined fuel, I guess the Players are expected to grit their teeth and roll the dice....

 

[Grav_Moped]

The two different specs for an A2 between DA6 and A3 are due to the first being a LBB2'77 build. If Pn=Gs instead of "Pn=Gs OR Pn=Jn, whichever is higher" then an upgrade from 1G to 2G means a bigger power plant AND more fuel; in LBB2'80 the power plant and fuel are already required so the only cost is the m-drive upgrade itself.

In A3, the broken drives are the motivator to get to adventuring. The weird part is that "Jump Drive can't make its full range" is not something driven by the rules (you can't get there with a table result). They did it as a factoid about one of the Kinunirs, too (construction flaw).

 

[spank]

The idea that the players will be using unrefined fuel is more curious to me, it certainly is a strategy that they might use to use to hold down running costs, but the module really seems to be pushing it.

The two different specs for an A2 between DA6 and A3 are due to the first being a LBB2'77 build. If Pn=Gs instead of "Pn=Gs OR Pn=Jn, whichever is higher" then an upgrade from 1G to 2G means a bigger power plant AND more fuel; in LBB2'80 the power plant and fuel are already required so the only cost is the m-drive upgrade itself.

In A3, the broken drives are the motivator to get to adventuring. The weird part is that "Jump Drive can't make its full range" is not something driven by the rules (you can't get there with a table result). They did it as a factoid about one of the Kinunirs, too (construction flaw).

 

[Rupert]

In A3, the broken drives are the motivator to get to adventuring. The weird part is that "Jump Drive can't make its full range" is not something driven by the rules (you can't get there with a table result). They did it as a factoid about one of the Kinunirs, too (construction flaw).

It's not weird, it was expected that the referee would making rulings like that to reflect bad designs, or worn out ships, especially if they thought it would make for more interesting play. Personally I think things like this (and the Type-S filters) that are 'bad design' or the like should come out of skills checks during design or construction, but rulings about breakdowns or poor maintenance that are 'ship consumes double the normal fuel' or the like rather than simply 'drive broken' are a good thing, and far more interesting, and there's no need for special rules to produce such results (though some tables to help when the ref is uninspired, etc. are nice accessories).

 

[spank]

IDK, I can get the numbers for the Twilight's Peak trader pretty close, I get 62 tons instead of 61, assuming it's B/B/B and a '77 design. Unless I missed a tons somewhere. Matching the cost isn't an issue, and there could be a ton reserved for fire control.

For the DA6 trader it's numbers seem to be a little off. It's J-2 and 1G, so probably B/A/B, but there is only 50 tons of fuel. If it's a '81 design it should have 40 Jump fuel + 20 Plant fuel. The only way I can think of to get 50 Fuel is for it to be using the '77 rules for fuel which would reduce to 1G * 10. But by 1983 you'd think they'd be using the '81 rules. Maybe the fuel and cargo space needs Errata'd?

I can get the T&G 2A trader to match the cost, cargo and fuel in the Errata for T&G. "Missing notation that this design uses a custom hull. The Far Trader is capable of 2-G acceleration, the fuel tankage should be 60 tons, the standard design does not come with turrets or armament of any kind, the cargo bay is 46 tons, and the cost is MCr69.3 (including 10% discount for quantity production)."

The two different specs for an A2 between DA6 and A3 are due to the first being a LBB2'77 build. If Pn=Gs instead of "Pn=Gs OR Pn=Jn, whichever is higher" then an upgrade from 1G to 2G means a bigger power plant AND more fuel; in LBB2'80 the power plant and fuel are already required so the only cost is the m-drive upgrade itself.

In A3, the broken drives are the motivator to get to adventuring. The weird part is that "Jump Drive can't make its full range" is not something driven by the rules (you can't get there with a table result). They did it as a factoid about one of the Kinunirs, too (construction flaw).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Slight revision: you can get "J2 drive only does J1" from a single hit of battle damage dropping the jump drive from Size B to Size A.

The A:3 A2 is weird in that it's precisely at the intersection of multiple rule editions. Under LBB2'77 it's valid, but sub-optimal as a merchant (the marginal cost in MCr and Td for going from 1G to 2G is likely not worth it if you weren't already required to have the Size B power plant and additional 10Td fuel by the '81 rules). But, the "jump governor" from LBB5'79 is needed to make the "ship always uses J2 fuel even though it only can do J-1" drive fault actually mean anything -- using J2 fuel for a J-1 is just normal performance under the '77 rules!

The only way this makes sense is if the writers assumed that players/referees didn't have standardized rules. That is, some might have only LBB2'77; others, LBB5'79 too; and finally, some had LBB2'81. This ship works with all of them, except that the separate governor is not necessary for LBB2'81.

 

[spank]

Also interesting is that, from what I see, the only way to limit a jump drive at the time was the jump governor, or by running a lower level jump program. LBB 2 '77 doesn't seem to have the requirement that the computer match the Jump level. Only that your computer run the correct program, and Jump 2-6 only needs 2 space, so theoretically a model 1 could load and run Jump-6. That would be all it could do however.
It is understandable that the ship in A3 is a LBB'77 design, A3 came out in 1980, so LBB 2 '77 and HG '79 or '80 would be the only options.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There do not need to be rules allowing you to use thing from Book 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 or any supplement, adventure, JTAS article or boardgame with each other all the rules are written to be used with each other.

The various design systems in CT are not built or designated to be interoperable with other versions of the same type.

If you build a LBB2 ship with a Striker power plant, it is no longer a plain LBB2 ship.
If you roll up a LBB1 character, but use the skill tables in LBB4, it is no longer a plain LBB1 character.
If you built a subsector with a mix of tables from LBB3 and LBB6, it is not a plain LBB3 subsector.
If you roll up cargo with a mix of tables from LBB2 and LBB7, it's not a plain LBB2 cargo.
Of course you can do it, it's just a house rule... Nothing wrong with that, right?

Especially when there is a specific example of just that happening.

S7 contains lots of house-ruled ships...
XBoat: House-ruled.
XBoat Tender: House-ruled.
Scout: House-ruled.
Subbie: House-ruled.
Far Trader: House-ruled.
Seeker: House-ruled.
Gazelle: House-ruled.
SDB: No idea?
Jump Shuttle: House-ruled.
Of course you can house-rule ships, even GDW and MWM did it all the time...
It's just a house rule... Nothing wrong with that, right?


The Subbie in S7 only differs from the original in LBB2'81 in that it can use unrefined fuel without penalty (and a slightly lower cost). If a fuel purification plant from LBB5 was added it would have taken up some space and increased the cost. That is not what they did, they just house-ruled it... Nothing wrong with that, right?

Otherwise you couldn't make money carrying cargo in your LBB5 design, because there is no rule in LBB 5 allowing cargo to be carried for money.

A) The economic model in LBB2 is not a part of any ship design system.
B) The LBB5 ship design system specifically refers to LBB2.
The conflict you imagine just doesn't exist.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IDK, I can get the numbers for the Twilight's Peak trader pretty close, I get 62 tons instead of 61, assuming it's B/B/B and a '77 design. Unless I missed a tons somewhere. Matching the cost isn't an issue, and there could be a ton reserved for fire control.

The numbers add up if it's originally a LBB2'77 design with B/A/A drives, 50 Dt fuel, and two Dt reserved for fire control.
Converting it to LBB2'81 with B/B/B drives, and 60 Dt fuel takes 16 Dt, costing either four staterooms (10->6) or 16 Dt cargo (61->46 Dt).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The idea that the players will be using unrefined fuel is more curious to me, it certainly is a strategy that they might use to use to hold down running costs, but the module really seems to be pushing it.

Refined fuel is only available at level A or B starports by default, so you might not have much choice...

 

[spank]

That's my point, The '77 rules are particular harsh in this regard. 10+ for a drive failure when using unrefined fuel which is a base 16% chance for a drive failure. Which is bad enough, but there's a +1 for every jump made this way so you quickly become almost guaranteed to breakdown.

You could flush the drives after every jump to stay at "only" a 1-in-6 chance of drive failure. But that takes a week,
And on top of that there is a 2% base chance of mis-jump—12+ or 9+ using unrefined fuel. Which is a 27.7 %chance So the module is dictating that the players will take a 27.7 % chance of misjumping every time they jump. And again, the odds quickly mount that they will misjump.


By the second jump there's a ~50% chance you are going to experience a mis-jump. Again pretty unfavorable odds, and the module dictates that you will be using unrefined fuel.

Refined fuel is only available at level A or B starports by default, so you might not have much choice...