Modifying surplus ships.

[spank]

Traders and Gunboats is a GDW product, not a "referee ruling".
Beyond that it's just common sense, if a fitment exists in another rules book, supplement, adventure, or JTAS article, it is reasonable to assume it could be used in any design LBB 2 or LBB5. Unless it's specifically prohibited.

Sure, the Referee or "super-referee" can rule anything they want, but I, as a lowly ship designer, can't.

LBB2 has no concept of a fuel purifier, just "drives are specially built to use [unrefined fuel]". Sure, LBB2 doesn't ban fuel purifiers, just as it does not warp drives, but that does not mean that either is free for use or without cost.

 

[TamsinP]

TTB says the same thing as LBB2:



The Scout, Free Trader, and Subbie are specified to be streamlined. E.g. the Liner and Yacht are not...

You missed two from LBB2 (81) - the Mercenary Cruiser is unstreamlined (it is also described as unstreamlined in LBB A07, although how that conflicts with the premise of the adventure where it has "grounded" on Garda-Vilis which has a standard atmosphere), and the Patrol Cruiser is described as streamlined.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Oops...

No worries, we all make mistakes...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You missed two from LBB2 (81) - the Mercenary Cruiser is unstreamlined (it is also described as unstreamlined in LBB A07, although how that conflicts with the premise of the adventure where it has "grounded" on Garda-Vilis which has a standard atmosphere), and the Patrol Cruiser is described as streamlined.

Quite, it was not an exhaustive list, just a few examples.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Traders and Gunboats is a GDW product, not a "referee ruling".

That is what I call the "super-referee", i.e. the game authors. They can, and do, go outside the rules, just as well as the referee can do. E.g. the Annic Nova.

Beyond that it's just common sense, if a fitment exists in another rules book, supplement, adventure, or JTAS article, it is reasonable to assume it could be used in any design LBB 2 or LBB5. Unless it's specifically prohibited.

Nothing is prohibited, that is the definition of Rule 0. A design system is a procedure how to do something, it is not necessarily the only way to do things. It is not intended to stop you from doing things, but a guideline to help you doing things.

But that does not mean that a player can claim his ship has a collector, an antimatter power plant, or a matter transporter (all mentioned in CT) without Referee approval. And that Referee approval might not extend to someone else's game.


Does fuel purification plants exist in Traveller canon? Yes, obviously.
Does that mean that all ships in Traveller have them, without cost or tonnage? No, not by RAW, and not in my game. Anyone else's game may differ...

 

[spank]

That is what I call the "super-referee", i.e. the game authors. They can, and do, go outside the rules, just as well as the referee can do. E.g. the Annic Nova.

That's a funny way of not saying the game as written allows it.

Nothing is prohibited, that is the definition of Rule 0. A design system is a procedure how to do something, it is not necessarily the only way to do things. It is not intended to stop you from doing things, but a guideline to help you doing things.

But that does not mean that a player can claim his ship has a collector, an antimatter power plant, or a matter transporter (all mentioned in CT) without Referee approval. And that Referee approval might not extend to someone else's game.

That's actually the opposite of rule 0. The fuel plant exists in the game, and the only way a player would not have access to it is by referee fiat.

Does fuel purification plants exist in Traveller canon? Yes, obviously.
Does that mean that all ships in Traveller have them, without cost or tonnage? No, not by RAW, and not in my game. Anyone else's game may differ...

The Cannon is RAW, and RAW includes fuel purification plants on book 2 ships. You may not like it, any that's your prerogative. But what you do in YTU is doesn't abrogate RAW. By RAW fuel purification plant can be, and are, used on OTU LBB2 designs.

 

[kilemall]

That's a funny way of not saying the game as written allows it.



That's actually the opposite of rule 0. The fuel plant exists in the game, and the only way a player would not have access to it is by referee fiat.


The Cannon is RAW, and RAW includes fuel purification plants on book 2 ships. You may not like it, any that's your prerogative. But what you do in YTU is doesn't abrogate RAW. By RAW fuel purification plant can be, and are, used on OTU LBB2 designs.

Technically LBB2 says military and scout ships can jump on unrefined fuel- which could be interpreted that there is an intrinsic fuel purifier or that they are designed to work that way. The latter would have been assumed until LBB5 introduced the concept of the fuel purifier equipment.

But commercial/private ships definitely don’t have that capacity by virtue of unrefined fuel effects coupled with the scout/military distinction.

 

[mike wightman]

And yet the canon quote above says that they can have, just in case you missed in CT S:7 says this:

"Subsidized Merchant (Type R): Constructed using the type 400 hull, the subsidized merchant is equipped with class C drives capable of producing jump-1, 1-G acceleration, and power plant-1. Fuel tankage is 50 tons, sufficient for one jump, plus some maneuver. Fuel scoops are integral with the hull, and a fuel purification plant allows use of unrefined fuel...

To both port and starboard on the lower level, corridors run the length of the ship, connecting the forward control areas with the aft drive rooms. Each corridor provides access to the ship's turrets, to a cargo air lock, and to the fuel scoop and purification mechanisms"

 

[kilemall]

And yet the canon quote above says that they can have, just in case you missed in CT S:7 says this:

"Subsidized Merchant (Type R): Constructed using the type 400 hull, the subsidized merchant is equipped with class C drives capable of producing jump-1, 1-G acceleration, and power plant-1. Fuel tankage is 50 tons, sufficient for one jump, plus some maneuver. Fuel scoops are integral with the hull, and a fuel purification plant allows use of unrefined fuel...

To both port and starboard on the lower level, corridors run the length of the ship, connecting the forward control areas with the aft drive rooms. Each corridor provides access to the ship's turrets, to a cargo air lock, and to the fuel scoop and purification mechanisms"

He said LBB2. S7 was probably after LBB5.

LBB2 has the clear distinction which would include the stock R.

 

[Silverhawk]

So theoretically you've got:

• Surplus Scout 29.43 MCr, discounted 40% --> 17.658
• Remove 4 state rooms 2.2 MCr
• Add 4 Double occupancy staterooms 1.1 MCr
• Swap Air Raft for Buggy +0.15 MCr
• Pulse laser +0.5 MCr
• Remove fuel tanks/hull space/instuments ????

That gives 21.608 MCr which is 2.982 MCr under the quoted cost.
You could add a 10% fee for ????? {10% of base ship cost} and 1% architect's fee,
Which would get you to 24.79651 MCr, Which is close to the final cost, But I'm not happy with the 10% fee, It's just a cost I pulled out of my hat to justify raising the cost.

The 10% could be labor, shop, and disposal fees all the usual things that seem to inflate my car repair bills. Remember there's also taxes, tags, destination fees, and dealer prep.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Cannon is RAW, and RAW includes fuel purification plants on book 2 ships. You may not like it, any that's your prerogative. But what you do in YTU is doesn't abrogate RAW. By RAW fuel purification plant can be, and are, used on OTU LBB2 designs.

And yet the canon quote above says that they can have, just in case you missed in CT S:7 says this:

Of course we can build ships that fly by flapping their wing, jump without fuel, or can jump with unrefined fuel.
But we can't do it with LBB2...

LBB2 has no system or rules for ornithopters, collectors, nor fuel processing plants.
If it has any of these components, it's no longer a plain LBB2 ship.

You build those ships by waving the magic wand of Rule 0.


This ship is also canon:

A12, p26:
Ancient Exploration Ship: The ship is built around a lattice-work hull of approximately 200 tons displacement. It mounts drives capable of jump-6 and 6G acceleration. There are no fuel tanks and the ship operates without refuelling. The hull has forty-three capsules (each about six tons) mounted on the hull, of which all but one can be detached and maneuvered independently. The one solidly-mounted capsule is the prime capsule and holds inputloutput terminals for the main ship's computer (which is the equivalent of a Model19, and is semi-intelligent). The remaining fortytwo capsules are fitted for a variety of functions including use as staterooms, storage, library, and maintenance areas. Each capsule is capable of detaching itself from the main ship and maneuvering independently. The hull is not streamlined in appearance, but is streamlined in performance, and the ship can enter atmosphere.

How do you build that with LBB2?

 

[atpollard]

Of course we can build ships that fly by flapping their wing, jump without fuel, or can jump with unrefined fuel.
But we can't do it with LBB2...

In LBB2, you only need to declare it a "military/scout drive" and it can run on unrefined fuel.

Refined fuel is available at starports at about Cr500 per ton; unrefined fuel is available at starports for Cr100 per ton, or can be skimmed from gas giants for
free. In addition, water can be taken from oceans or lakes (if there are any on the world) and used as unrefined fuel. Military and quasi-military starships often use
unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it. Commercial ships sometimes use unrefined fuel because it is cheaper. -LBB2, 81 (p.6)

 

[Grav_Moped]

In LBB2, you only need to declare it a "military/scout drive" and it can run on unrefined fuel.

Yep. Canon description or referee fiat -- there is no game mechanic for purchasing the capability except maybe physically installing a drive so designated into another ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In LBB2, you only need to declare it a "military/scout drive" and it can run on unrefined fuel.

Sure, but tramp freighters are not "military and quasi-military starships" with "drives are specially built to use [unrefined fuel]".

Simply declaring that your tramp freighter is a military starship is rule 0 in action.


Note: "Military and scout ships" was LBB2'77, but they could still misjump with unrefined fuel, just less often.
In LBB2'81 it's "military and quasi-military starships", whatever that is...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yep. Canon description or referee fiat -- there is no game mechanic for purchasing the capability except maybe physically installing a drive so designated into another ship.

Agreed, scavenging the drives from e.g. a Patrol Cruiser or Mercenary Cruiser would presumably give you "drives are specially built to use [unrefined fuel]"

 

[atpollard]

Sure, but tramp freighters are not "military and quasi-military starships" with "drives are specially built to use [unrefined fuel]".

It is if it is a surplus Q-ship.

 

[spank]

It is if it is a surplus Q-ship.

Or possible a Merchant Marine ship.
Even then, there is apparently no cost or size difference between a "military drive" and commercial one.
So you can just spec out your ship with the "military grade" drives, there is no prohibition against it.
Or a reasonable referee might decide that it is unreasonable to prohibit you from buying and installing a fuel purifier.

 

[spank]

You do whatever you want in your Traveller universe.

Of course we can build ships that fly by flapping their wing, jump without fuel, or can jump with unrefined fuel.
But we can't do it with LBB2...

So long as the items exist somewhere in Traveller, and aren't specifically prohibited, then a ship built with them is a legal design. A Free trader that is built with a Ground Car, Armored Fighting Vehicle, Helicopter or Motorboat instead of an Air/Raft does not suddenly become "not a book 2 design". Even if these items don't appear in LBB 2.

LBB2 has no system or rules for ornithopters, collectors, nor fuel processing plants.
If it has any of these components, it's no longer a plain LBB2 ship.

You build those ships by following the rules as written. You prohibit ships from using items from LBB 3, LBB5, Sup 7, by Referee fiat. Which is the opposite of building them by rule 0. You prohibit building those ships by waving the magic wand of Rule 0.

You build those ships by waving the magic wand of Rule 0.

There is no indication that that is a LBB2 ship, but it is clearly stated that the subsidized merchant in Traders and Gunboats is clearly stated to be a Book 2 design. As is the Seeker.

This ship is also canon:
A12, p26:
Ancient Exploration Ship: The ship is built around a lattice-work hull of approximately 200 tons displacement. It mounts drives capable of jump-6 and 6G acceleration. There are no fuel tanks and the ship operates without refuelling. The hull has forty-three capsules (each about six tons) mounted on the hull, of which all but one can be detached and maneuvered independently. The one solidly-mounted capsule is the prime capsule and holds inputloutput terminals for the main ship's computer (which is the equivalent of a Model19, and is semi-intelligent). The remaining fortytwo capsules are fitted for a variety of functions including use as staterooms, storage, library, and maintenance areas. Each capsule is capable of detaching itself from the main ship and maneuvering independently. The hull is not streamlined in appearance, but is streamlined in performance, and the ship can enter atmosphere.
How do you build that with LBB2?

But if you really want to stick with the idea that LBB2 designs can't use anything that's not in Book 2, then LBB5 designs can't use anything from LBB 2—unless specifically allowed. Seems fair, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Grav_Moped]

But if you really want to stick with the idea that LBB2 designs can't use anything that's not in Book 2, then LBB5 designs can't use anything from LBB 2—unless specifically allowed. Seems fair, wouldn't you agree?

LBB5 says otherwise.

The only mechanisms for a LBB2 ship to get the ability to use dirty fuel without risk are either to be a scout/military design (canon or referee fiat) or to use a fuel processor from LBB5 (size and cost vary by TL).

Could be sillier. Jump governors for LBB2 drives were introduced in 1st Edition LBB5 as a separate chunk of hardware at an additional cost*! (LBB5 2nd Ed. and LBB2 2nd. Ed. just rolled them in as standard and didn't mention it.)

-----------------------
*yes, a 1st-edition Type S burned 20Td jump fuel every time, regardless of whether it was doing J1 or J2.

 

[spank]

Jump governors always struck me a an odd bit of rule making, They seems to be designed as a work around for a non-existent problem. IE, they allow a J2 ship to make J1 Jumps without burning J2 Fuel. But the whole idea that Jump-2 engine always burn fuel equal to a J-2 seems on it's face to be a rather arbitrary "gotcha" type rule, designed to inconvenience. I'd like the idea of a Jump Governor more if it gave some kind of benefit, rather than solving a here-to unseen problem. For example:

Jump Stabilizer:

• TL 10
• Lock the drive to a particular Jump level
• Provides a +1 modifier to misjump checks,
• Decreases fuel use by 20%
• Decrease travel time by 1 day

Or some combination there of. That way you are not adding new restrictions to the players, but instead offering new possiblities.

LBB5 says otherwise.

The only mechanisms for a LBB2 ship to get the ability to use dirty fuel without risk are either to be a scout/military design (canon or referee fiat) or to use a fuel processor from LBB5 (size and cost vary by TL).

Could be sillier. Jump governors for LBB2 drives were introduced in 1st Edition LBB5 as a separate chunk of hardware at an additional cost*! (LBB5 2nd Ed. and LBB2 2nd. Ed. just rolled them in as standard and didn't mention it.)

-----------------------
*yes, a 1st-edition Type S burned 20Td jump fuel every time, regardless of whether it was doing J1 or J2.