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Modifying surplus ships.

For most of the small hulls LBB2 is going to be cheaper. 100/200/400 ton hulls are discounted at 80%/60%/60%
Sure, but it's not a general property of LBB2 hulls, just a few of the most heavily discounted standard hulls.

In general LBB5 hulls are cheaper than LBB2 hulls.


It's really only the Scout and Free Trader (and variants), the only LBB2 ships possible with the two smallest standard hulls, that can benefit from that.

At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
 
Sure, but it's not a general property of LBB2 hulls, just a few of the most heavily discounted standard hulls.

In general LBB5 hulls are cheaper than LBB2 hulls.


It's really only the Scout and Free Trader (and variants), the only LBB2 ships possible with the two smallest standard hulls, that can benefit from that.

At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
400 ton hulls are still a better deal in LBB2, they are discounted at 60% in LBB 2. And for most games you are going to want a smaller ship the passenger and cargo capacity are not going to be there to support a larger ship.So, LBB2 hulls.
The big flaw for LBB 2 hulls is the wasted space due to the fixed size engineering section.
 
So theoretically you've got:
  • Surplus Scout 29.43 MCr, discounted 40% --> 17.658
  • Remove 4 state rooms 2.2 MCr
  • Add 4 Double occupancy staterooms 1.1 MCr
  • Swap Air Raft for Buggy +0.15 MCr
  • Pulse laser +0.5 MCr
  • Remove fuel tanks/hull space/instuments ????
That gives 21.608 MCr which is 2.982 MCr under the quoted cost.
You could add a 10% fee for ????? {10% of base ship cost} and 1% architect's fee,
Which would get you to 24.79651 MCr, Which is close to the final cost, But I'm not happy with the 10% fee, It's just a cost I pulled out of my hat to justify raising the cost.
Using the 1.1 x cost for minor modifications from TCS (p.34) to convert 20 dTons of fuel to cargo … the cost for the HULL is MCr 0.1 x 20 dT x 1.1 = MCr 2.2 of your missing MCr 2.982 (pretty close).
 
400 ton hulls are still a better deal in LBB2, they are discounted at 60% in LBB 2. And for most games you are going to want a smaller ship the passenger and cargo capacity are not going to be there to support a larger ship.So, LBB2 hulls.
The big flaw for LBB 2 hulls is the wasted space due to the fixed size engineering section.

Take a basic LBB2 streamlined J-1 400 tonner (standard hull, standard design):
Code:
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 63,2         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                 No subsidy        
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 63,18       kCr 12 636          kCr 263              80%
                                                               
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 126 360          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  25 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 208 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 527                                  
Berthing            Cr     400                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     170                        kCr     208
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr 38                  
  Yearly yield on down payment      7,4%

Compare with the same ship in LBB5 (custom hull, standard design):
Code:
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 66,0         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                 No subsidy        
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,98       kCr 13 195          kCr 275              80%
                                                               
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 131 952          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr   5 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 224 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 639                                  
Berthing            Cr     400                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     156                        kCr     224
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr 68                  
  Yearly yield on down payment     12,9%

Sure, it is MCr 3 more expensive due to the hull, but it also has 20 Dt more payload, so it is cheaper per Dt payload and cheaper to operate per Dt payload, hence more profitable...


With J-2 the they have the same payload, but the LBB5 ship is cheaper, due to the higher standard design discount.
 
Last edited:
LBB5 doesn't really have separate hull sections, so you can fit whatever you want however you want.
Except during a refit:
TCS, p34:
The degree to which a ship may be changed is limited. Power plant, M-drive, J-drive, and spinal mount weapons may not be increased in tonnage. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed). Armor and configuration may not be changed. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed.
 
A stripped LBB2 400 ton cargo haul, similar to what you seem to have built is going to come in at about 60 MCr,
1757150030349.png
An LBB5 equivalent is going to be close to 80MCR,
1757152040002.png
If you use Book 2 drives in a Book 5 hull you can end up with a ship cheaper than a Book 2 ship.
But that's largely down to the greater LBB5 discount compounding on the total ship cost, not the Hull cost.

1757151719153.png
In the end the extra discount for LBB5 designs and the ability to use LBB2 drives in LBB5 Hulls do make it possible to make a complete ship cheaper, but only just.
 

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A stripped LBB2 400 ton cargo haul, similar to what you seem to have built is going to come in at about 60 MCr,
I made it streamlined to make it usable.
Code:
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 63,2         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                   261        70,2
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      400 Dt          4          400          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                     20
Scoops              Streamlined                                

Engineering                                        25          
Jump Drive          B                  1    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         B                  1    1       3         8
Power Plant         B                  1    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1      50          
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         2
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4      16         2
                                                               
Cargo                                             261          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             2       2         0,2
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 70,20            Sum:     261        70,2
Class Cost          MCr  7,72           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 63,18                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     0           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     1
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                               
                                                               
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                 No subsidy        
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 63,18       kCr 12 636          kCr 263              80%
                                                               
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 126 360          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  25 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 208 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 527                                  
Berthing            Cr     400                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     170                        kCr     208
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr 38                  
  Yearly yield on down payment      7,4%


An LBB5 equivalent is going to be close to 80MCR,
Unless you use the same LBB2 drives, with a more expensive streamlined hull...
Code:
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 65,9         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Single Occupancy                                  280        82,4
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             4          400          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                     32
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,4
                                                               
Jump Drive          B                  1    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         B                  1    1       3         8
Power Plant         B                  1    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1      50          
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         2
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4      16         2
                                                               
Cargo                                             280          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             2       2          
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 82,43            Sum:     280        82,4
Class Cost          MCr 17,31           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 65,94                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     0           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     1
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                               
                                                               
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                 No subsidy        
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,94       kCr 13 189          kCr 275              80%
                                                               
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 131 888          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr   5 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 224 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 638                                  
Berthing            Cr     400                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     156                        kCr     224
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr 68                  
  Yearly yield on down payment     12,9%


But that's largely down to the greater LBB5 discount compounding on the total ship cost, not the Hull cost.
Quite, that is the offsetting factor.
At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
 
A flattened sphere is -20% cost, and base cost is 40MCr, so 32 MCR, not 20 MCr. You should be using a Closed Structure, which offers the best discount of the LBB5 Hulls, -40% or 24 MCr, unless you are willing to forego streamlining. Even then it's only partially streamlined, so that precludes landing on a planet. The only way you are going to get the hull cost down to 20MCr is to use a dispersed structure, which is completely un streamlined.
If you want to be able to land on a planet, which the LBB2 hull can, you are going to be restricted to Cone or Wedge which cost 44 or 48 MCR respectively.
The only way a LBB5 400 ton hull will be cheaper than a LBB2 hull is by sacrificing some capabilities.
I made it streamlined to make it usable.
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 63,2 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Single Occupancy LBB2 design 261 70,2
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined 400 Dt 4 400
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 20
Scoops Streamlined

Engineering 25
Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant B 1 1 7 16
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50

Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2

Staterooms 4 16 2

Cargo 261

Empty hardpoint 2 2 0,2

Nominal Cost MCr 70,20 Sum: 261 70,2
Class Cost MCr 7,72 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 63,18


Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0


Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 63,18 kCr 12 636 kCr 263 80%

Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 126 360 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 208 000
Maintenance Cr 2 527
Berthing Cr 400

Summa kCr 170 kCr 208

Income potential per jump kCr 38
Yearly yield on down payment 7,4% [/CODE][/SPOILER]



Unless you use the same LBB2 drives, with a more expensive streamlined hull...
Code:
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 65,9         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
                         Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Single Occupancy                                  280        82,4
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             4          400       
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                     32
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,4
                                                            
Jump Drive          B                  1    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         B                  1    1       3         8
Power Plant         B                  1    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1      50       
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                            
Bridge                                      1      20         2
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2
                                                            
Staterooms                                  4      16         2
                                                            
Cargo                                             280       
                                                            
Empty hardpoint                             2       2       
                                                            
Nominal Cost        MCr 82,43            Sum:     280        82,4
Class Cost          MCr 17,31           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 65,94                               
                                                            
                                                            
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     0           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     1
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                            
                                                            
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                 No subsidy     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,94       kCr 13 189          kCr 275              80%
                                                            
Expenses per jump                       Revenue             
Bank                Cr 131 888          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr   5 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 224 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 638                               
Berthing            Cr     400                               
                                                            
Summa              kCr     156                        kCr     224
                                                            
     Income potential per jump     kCr 68               
  Yearly yield on down payment     12,9%



Quite, that is the offsetting factor.
 
A flattened sphere is -20% cost, and base cost is 40MCr, so 32 MCR, not 20 MCr. You should be using a Closed Structure, which offers the best discount of the LBB5 Hulls, -40% or 24 MCr, unless you are willing to forego streamlining.
Flattened sphere is fully streamlined. Close Structure is partially streamlined.
I want fully streamlined, so I don't have to faff about with small craft, which would be even more expensive.
LBB5'80, p23:
Skärmavbild 2025-09-06 kl. 13.36.00.png


If you want to be able to land on a planet, which the LBB2 hull can, you are going to be restricted to Cone or Wedge which cost 44 or 48 MCR respectively.
The LBB2 standard hulls are not streamlined at all by default, it has to be added at MCr 1/100Dt.


The only way a LBB5 400 ton hull will be cheaper than a LBB2 hull is by sacrificing some capabilities.
I don't care if the hull component is cheaper, I care if the ship is cheaper or more usable.
At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
 
But in the end, the LBB5 ship is more expensive, and the extra cargo space doesn't necessarily offset that. On the same route, with the same cargo both ships will net the same revenue and the LBB2 design's lower cost will win out.

Artificially restricting the LBB2 design to 208 tons of cargo while the LBB5 design gets to carry 228 Tons is not an apples to apples comparison. Both ships will take as much of the available cargo as possible, only time the LBB5's greater cargo capacity will matter is when there is more than 261 tons of cargo available. In that case the LBB2 ship will go full, and the LBB5 will carry 261-280 tons of cargo. Then, and only then will the LBB5 design net more revenue. But again, with it's greater cost it will need to be fuller than 261 tons, it will need to carry something like 272+ tons to make the same profit as the LBB2 design at 261 tons.
The only way a LBB5 400 ton hull will be cheaper than a LBB2 hull is by sacrificing some capabilities.
I don't care if the hull component is cheaper, I care if the ship is cheaper or more usable.
 
But in the end, the LBB5 ship is more expensive, and the extra cargo space doesn't necessarily offset that. On the same route, with the same cargo both ships will net the same revenue and the LBB2 design's lower cost will win out.
LBB5 has another trick that my spreadsheet included by default: Fuel purifier.
The LBB5 ship is kCr ~5.5 more expensive mortgage per jump, but it saves kCr 20 per jump on unrefined fuel without risk of misjump.
So, the LBB5 ship has more payload space and is cheaper to operate... See the spoilers four posts up.

With LBB5, you can just make the ship a little bit smaller and cheaper if you don't need that much payload space. With LBB2 you are locked in to the fixed size of the standard hull.
 
And, if you are going to fit the fuel purifier to the LBB5 design you can fit it to also fit it to the LBB 2 design.
There are no purifier component in LBB2, they are automatic for "military and quasi-military starships".
LBB2'81, p6:
Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it.
 
None of that prohibits you from fitting a fuel purifying plant. It only says that military ships' drives are built to use unrefined fuel.
There is no prohibition against fitting fuel purification plants to LBB2 designs, Infact there are canonical examples, both the Broadsword and Subsidized Merchant have cannonically been shown fitted with fuel purification plants.
From Traders and Gunboats
1757244038243.png
 
None of that prohibits you from fitting a fuel purifying plant. It only says that military ships' drives are built to use unrefined fuel.
There is no prohibition against fitting fuel purification plants to LBB2 designs, Infact there are canonical examples, both the Broadsword and Subsidized Merchant have cannonically been shown fitted with fuel purification plants.
Sure, the Referee or "super-referee" can rule anything they want, but I, as a lowly ship designer, can't.

LBB2 has no concept of a fuel purifier, just "drives are specially built to use [unrefined fuel]". Sure, LBB2 doesn't ban fuel purifiers, just as it does not warp drives, but that does not mean that either is free for use or without cost.
 
For reference:

Refitting rules in TCS, p. 34:
Major (Drive swaps): 1.5 x cost of the new drives, 1/4 the time needed to build the ship from scratch.

Minor (everything else); 1.1 x cost of new fittings, 1/10 of original ship build time.
I used these rules for when my characters purchased a surplus x-boat tender and added an ore processor, converting it to a milling ship for their asteroid mine.

I added 1D months to the final build time to reflect getting yard space at a busy starport.
 
The LBB2 standard hulls are not streamlined at all by default, it has to be added at MCr 1/100Dt.

In fact, LLB2 (or at least TTB, that is the version I have) does not care about streamlining, not specifying if the ship is or not, but that does not mean the standard ships on it are not streamlined, as otherwise no ship in LLB2 or TTB (so, the Scout, the Free Trader, the Subsidized Trader, etc.) could land on an atmosphere planet, and I guess this is not the case.

I guess all those ships (and all in TTB except the Lab Ship and maybe the Subsidized Lineer due to the gooseneck) may so land, and so are streamlined.
 
In fact, LLB2 (or at least TTB, that is the version I have) does not care about streamlining, ...
TTB says the same thing as LBB2:
TTB, p60:
OPTIONAL COMPONENTS
___The following are optional components. Where not present, they may be added to a standard design by the purchaser.
___Atmospheric Streamlining: The hulls specified are rough deep space configurations incapable of entering atmospheres. They may be streamlined by so indicating in the design plans, at a cost of MCr1 per 100 tons of ship.
TTB, p64:
___Subsidized Merchant (type R): Using a 400-ton hull, the subsidized merchant (nicknamed fat trader) is a trading vessel intended to meet the commercial needs of clusters of worlds. It has jump drive-C, maneuver drive-C, and power plant-C, giving performance of jump-I and I-G acceleration. Fuel tankage for 50 tons supports the power plant and allows one jump-1. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/1. There are thirteen staterooms and nine low berths. The ship has two hardpoints and two tons set aside for fire control. No weapons are mounted. There is one ship's vehicle: a 20-ton launch. Cargo capacity is 200 tons. The ship is streamlined.
___The fat trader requires a crew of five:

The Scout, Free Trader, and Subbie are specified to be streamlined. E.g. the Liner and Yacht are not...
 
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